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OH CRAP.
What about Porting in the bustas and then Jumping a unit of 30 grots in front of them between you and the enemy. Now they cant shoot your precious bustas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
So, do you guyz feel it's time to start painting the usefullness colors for orks? A lot more things have gone up the spectre.

'Ere we go. Stuff that i've tried allready.

Green:
Boyz. Still green. Still mean. Still needed for footslogging lists and still questionable for mech. They've become more expensive which is noticeable when you spam them. However, clan traits and strategems have made them, at very least, not worse than before. Though, the numbers of boyz will definitely go down in an average ork list.

Grots. Orks are super cp thirsty now. And what better way do we have of getting cp other than spamming grots? They still do nothing in terms of killing stuff but this cp are invaluable. The grot shield strategem is also a game changer. And besides, with the nerf to grot crews you'll need more backfield scoring and deepstrike denial. Another plus for grots.

Meganobz. Now that's a huge comeback from red to green. 35 pts for a basic meganob. Access to deepstrike. Able to go up to 72% success rate when making a charge out of deepstrike with Evil Sunz clan trait. Boom. Top tier unit right there. Drop 10 manz in your opponent's face. Fight twice. Dead stuff all around. Statystically killing a knight outright. All for 350 pts and...5cp. Yeah, remember we told you about needing a lot of grots? Besides those grots can 'look out boss' the wounds away from the manz if the stars are right.

Wierdboy. Our go-to hq unit. The cheapest. Always useful. Oh-so fragile. But you need them. All the existing powers have gotten a buff to range wgich is very nice. And we got one extra good power to buff our bosses with +2 attacks and strength. This combo is brutal with the relic warboss. Other new powers are questionable. -1 ld for stuff around...hard to think of situations when it's worth the effort over smite. A horde smasher power is also super situational.

Warboss. Still green despite going up in price. Not as spammable though. But relics and a wierdboy buff make them super killy. A relik klaw warboss with a wierdboy buff and fight twice/fight after death strategem will have decent odds of bringing down an unharmed knight. If this guy is your warlord with +1 damage or +1 attack+str, the knight should better hide. All for 78 pts(min). Who else can do it. Though a non-relik non-buffed boss has become a bit worse with a price hike. But the relik + buffed option is so killy, you can forgive his less lucky cousin.

Index bikerboss. Still green. Has become even better with the reliks.

Tankbustas. Great if you run them as bad moonz with a shoot twice strategem. This, however, will require an extra detachment most of the time. Good news is bad moon relik is nice. Now you can hide tankbustas in deepstrike if you don't want them t1. Don't be cheap and give them at least a trukk though. Tankbustas are really expensive. And you want to shoot at least a couple turns to make their points back. Or use grot shield strategem. Or better both.

Teal:
Smasha gunz. Relatively killy. Not super fragile. Lost grot crew as a separate unit. The gun's still good but not as good as kmk used to be in the index.

Trukk. Cheaper now. Can be used as a gun platform for bustas and stuff.Has a sittuational use tying things up and dealing mw with ramming speed strategem. Though, a wagon is much better at it. You never know, though.

Yellow:
Deffkoptas. Have gone from red to yellow in the heartbeat. They're still not amazing but not bad to have to score and probably even tie things up. 40 pts for a tl bigshoota one is probably still a bit too much but it's much better than what they used to be. Lost the bombs though (correct me if i'm wrong).

Lil meks. Have become more expensive and lost a bunch of options. But you can still run them with a kmb cause they had access to it in index. Deffskullz for extra killiness. Can still be nice to score the backfield, fill up detachments or even be used as a relatively reliable lazcannon if run as deff skullz.

U can but I feel as it is still a bit premature. Book has been out 3 days and no one has had enough time to play test.

Cause we are better than the people who blew orks out of proportion when the index dropped, right?

Add in traktor kannon as at least teal. Autohit is pretty good and there's plenty of flying vehicles around. Though problem is plenty of those which are hurt can easily remove 3-4 of them a turn without breaking a sweat :-/

tneva82 wrote:
Add in traktor kannon as at least teal. Autohit is pretty good and there's plenty of flying vehicles around. Though problem is plenty of those which are hurt can easily remove 3-4 of them a turn without breaking a sweat :-/

AND THEN THEY GET DUNKED BY THE BUSTAS

 Dr.Duck wrote:
OH CRAP.
What about Porting in the bustas and then Jumping a unit of 30 grots in front of them between you and the enemy. Now they cant shoot your precious bustas.

For idea of walking up for bombs? If you are that close with tank bustas easy enough to simply go around and be closest to tank bustas and no more grot screen. Going to be pretty rare you can do that and NOT have something from enemy come around. Also it's T3 earliest and what if opponent charges those grots? That's right. You don't have 9" gap to deep strike into. Especially if you were to da jump grots into circle to prevent the move to other side and shoot tank bustas thing.

So what's going on with Battlewagons @ GW webstore? I suppose they're being re-packed to fit the new names? When they're back in stock is anyone's guess... Also means that independent retailers are not likely to be restocked until that happens either... soo I'm stuck with my old list for a while yet.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
OH CRAP.
What about Porting in the bustas and then Jumping a unit of 30 grots in front of them between you and the enemy. Now they cant shoot your precious bustas.

For idea of walking up for bombs? If you are that close with tank bustas easy enough to simply go around and be closest to tank bustas and no more grot screen. Going to be pretty rare you can do that and NOT have something from enemy come around. Also it's T3 earliest and what if opponent charges those grots? That's right. You don't have 9" gap to deep strike into. Especially if you were to da jump grots into circle to prevent the move to other side and shoot tank bustas thing.

Stuff Happens T2 while you fire rockets. Grots are just there to potentially save them from getting wiped. T3 you walk up and nade. Rest of the army is tying up stuff in cqc.

In most cases you can daisy chain something stupid with the grots . Any other vectors where your opponent can walk around the great grot wall you tie up with the boys you jumped T1 along with buggies and whatever else.

Im gonna facilitate this dream at some point. Plan of tying up units doesn't work against knights

 Weazel wrote:
So what's going on with Battlewagons @ GW webstore? I suppose they're being re-packed to fit the new names? When they're back in stock is anyone's guess... Also means that independent retailers are not likely to be restocked until that happens either... soo I'm stuck with my old list for a while yet.

Out of stock. People buying tons of them presumably with gun wagon and bonebreakers. GW's stocks aren't limited(remember more stock sitting around=more expenses for GW=less profits) so occcasionally things simply run out and GW doesn't do "take money, send items when we have more of them" style of sales.

Fairly common situation so unless something changes I assume that's the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some more mathhammer. Was thinking how spanners with KMB in lootas would work up against magnus. In short: Swingy but average sliiiiiiightly better when you roll average 2 shots. Obviously for rounds you roll 1(wish the shots was per model and not per unit) spanners help. When you roll 3 you go worse. But all in all you still won't even with 4++ kill it with averages. Lootas with total of 4 shots per guy will cause 12.44 with extra 3.69 for total of 16 wounds. 5 wounds per guy will result in 19 wounds so slightly less than just lootas and 6 per guy will kill it but I would prefer lootas in terms of variance.

And of course 24" range sucks even with da jump. I don't want to be that close to Magnus! I likely would get charged as Magnus is likely in rear lines.

Would be better vs non-inv save tough targets if you plan to da jump+more dakka.

(oh and about 30 pts more pricey to boot)

Agreed it's too early to do the colour coded units but I'll throw in some feedback in terms of my findings through playing.

A big squad of Warbikes has done work for me more than once now. I haven't even got my Trikeboss painted yet either so expecting even more when they can shoot and charge in the same turn. Great screen clearers but don't expect them to deal with heavier threats. Know their weaknesses and don't put them in combat with things that can hit back. They won't like it.

Deffkoptas are expensive but super fast and fly helps them get across the board. They are pests though, a distraction unit as much as anything.

Meganobz are great at 35 ppm stock and surprisingly quick as Evil Sunz. I'm probably going to start them on the board from now on when I bring them. They can take hits with 2+ and put them next to a vehicle at deployment so they can loot it.

I need to play more with Nobz. At the moment I don't see the point taking them dual choppa though, its an unusual Ork list that is lacking no AP multiple hits. For me they are better served taking Big Choppas and PKs to threaten tougher things.

I run my Painboy mostly because I've painted him very well (if I do say so myself) but I always forget to use his healing ability on characters because it's at the end of the movement phase. I feel he's worth more than what we first think if we factor in the D3 healing a turn. Particularly when used on our high wound characters on bikes, trikes etc. He's no slouch in combat either. The 6+++ is nice but not that relevant to my list, or many others I suspect outside of Green Tide.

Boyz feel like a tax now unless we build around them, which I refuse to do. I think the larger bases and ppm increase will kill them for lists that aren't focussed on a Green Tide. In my list, where I routinely take only 30, in 3 squads of 10 no less, they serve mostly to give LD10 to my other units if I don't get first turn and shootas hang back on objectives. They can do work if they reach combat, but if the opponent looks at them funny they die in droves.

Grots are our new CP providers. All hail the mighty bearers of CP! They also serve as the ultimate in cheap screening unit. Until they run away. But they won't get a chance to run away when my Nobz and Meganobz are holding them as shields. Hide them out of sight (and more than 6" away from another infantry unit) if they're on an objective.

Big Mek (index) feels somewhat cheap using him but again I made my own conversions that I'm really proud of so still going to run until its forbidden explicitly. Cheapest source of KFF and D3 vehicle heals. Don't expect much in combat out of him, he hits like a Nob, literally.

MA Big Mek is the guilt free, much more expensive version of the guy above with a better save, an extra wound, a power klaw and a half decent ranged weapon. He's also slower which may mean something when it comes to vehicle heals and KFF positioning for those of you who don't run Evil Sunz. I take one because he balances the guilt of taking my normal Big Mek. He's also a Nob in combat.

Zhadsnark is still a monster and still a steal at 2 pts cheaper than he used to be. Just make sure you protect him and kill your targets because the 4+ save and lack of any invuln or Supa Cybork body is not going to keep him alive against the targets you want to use him on. Evil Sunz warlord trait works well on him (fall back and charge). Only negative is lack of a bikerboss Waaaaaagh! aura so he only effects infantry, bizarrely. So don't expect him to allow any vehicles or bikes to charge, you'll need a Trikeboss for that.

Ever since I killed a misplaced Farseer with the Dakkajet, everyone at my LGS and in particular my main opponent always target it first. With quite a lot of prejudice. Its hard to say how good it is when it's always limping a little or dead after the first turn. If nothing else it draws the enemy fire. It doesn't have the output I expect compared to how it's discussed here. Also that farseer has never been misplaced again. I feel they are one trick pony's, and good screen clearers. But almost 150 pts to clear screens? That's 6 more warbikes....

Hole this wall of text helps someone! Just my findings! I'll add more as I play more varied lists.

Oh yeah, i forgot about the burna bomber.

It's still yellow. Nothing really changed. Not worth it in many occasions, though can be ice in certain edge cases of burning something like a bunch of devastators or reapers out of a ruin.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I need to play more with Nobz. At the moment I don't see the point taking them dual choppa though, its an unusual Ork list that is lacking no AP multiple hits. For me they are better served taking Big Choppas and PKs to threaten tougher things.

Big choppa+choppa as much as points allow. Choppa attack+big choppa atack.

One thing that I was reminded of in game yesterday: Facing flyers still suck. Bit better with lootas etc but sucks facing stuff you can't deal with anything but shooting.

SemperMortis wrote:
Is anyone else running into the problem that our units are kind of crap without CP? I Feel like I am forced to take grotz to fill out a brigade or a 2nd/3rd battalion in order to get the CP i need to make my army decent.

Yes, but that's first world problems, right? Every marine player would murder us to get 30 point troops and a pile of awesome stratagems
There are also few armies that do a better job than us when filling brigades.

In addition, mek guns have no access to any stratagems, and they still report back uniformly as being awesome.

Traktor Kannons are gold against flyers, from what I read. Auto-hit with solid S, AP, and D. You'll probably want to field more than a few, if you know you're facing a Fly heavy army, but they really help negate the traditional bad shooting of Orkz.

 flandarz wrote:
Traktor Kannons are gold against flyers, from what I read. Auto-hit with solid S, AP, and D. You'll probably want to field more than a few, if you know you're facing a Fly heavy army, but they really help negate the traditional bad shooting of Orkz.

Problem with them is them being soft and orks having often only 40% chance of going first...Dark eldars for example would be ideal target but 60% of times you can easily lose like half a dozen of them from the AT weapons they are packing :-/

 JimOnMars wrote:

fe40k wrote:

Invul wrote:
Wait wait wait, choppa nobz is legal? 5-attack dudes for 14 points?

As written, yes; that appears to be the case.

Intentional? Hard to say - we'll have to wait for the FAQ to know for sure.

We don't know that the choppa +1 attack stacks with itself yet...I'd wait for the FAQ personally before playing it on people you like.

There are dozens of weapons across all codices that work exactly this way.

If you have a choppa, that choppa makes an additional attack with the choppa profile.
If you have two choppas, each one makes an additional attack.
If you have a big choppa and a choppa, you can chose to make your three basic attacks with either weapon, and your choppa makes an additional attack with the choppa profile.
IMPORTANT: Choppas do not confer +1 attack, they simply allow to make an additional attack with a choppa

Weapons that do not work that way are explicitly worded differently, like killsaws, lightning claws, or most nid weapons that come in pairs.

That IS an issue... a Big Mek with KFF could help, but you're still looking at some pain regardless. Might behoove you to field some Bad Moonz Tankbustas too and pop the Moar Dakka Strat, if you need to.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I need to play more with Nobz. At the moment I don't see the point taking them dual choppa though, its an unusual Ork list that is lacking no AP multiple hits. For me they are better served taking Big Choppas and PKs to threaten tougher things.

The idea behind the dual choppa is to have cheap nobz that die first. For example, you would put 3 PK nobz and 7 dual choppa nobz in a unit, or 5 BC and 5 dual choppas. Equipping all nobz with special weapons is a huge investement, and often doesn't pay off since they will rarely enter combat at full strength.
They basically take the role of slugga/choppa nobz.

I run my Painboy mostly because I've painted him very well (if I do say so myself) but I always forget to use his healing ability on characters because it's at the end of the movement phase. I feel he's worth more than what we first think if we factor in the D3 healing a turn. Particularly when used on our high wound characters on bikes, trikes etc. He's no slouch in combat either. The 6+++ is nice but not that relevant to my list, or many others I suspect outside of Green Tide.

A trick I learned from watching DG players play: Put a small check-list on the back of your army list to make sure you don't miss any triggers. DG have a tons of auras that do mortal wounds at the beginnen or end of multiple phases, it's impossible to remember all of them without such a list.

Boyz feel like a tax now unless we build around them, which I refuse to do. I think the larger bases and ppm increase will kill them for lists that aren't focussed on a Green Tide. In my list, where I routinely take only 30, in 3 squads of 10 no less, they serve mostly to give LD10 to my other units if I don't get first turn and shootas hang back on objectives. They can do work if they reach combat, but if the opponent looks at them funny they die in droves.

Larger bases increase the charge range from transports

Ever since I killed a misplaced Farseer with the Dakkajet, everyone at my LGS and in particular my main opponent always target it first. With quite a lot of prejudice. Its hard to say how good it is when it's always limping a little or dead after the first turn. If nothing else it draws the enemy fire. It doesn't have the output I expect compared to how it's discussed here. Also that farseer has never been misplaced again. I feel they are one trick pony's, and good screen clearers. But almost 150 pts to clear screens? That's 6 more warbikes....

They also wound most dark eldar vehicles and eldar bikes on 3+, with the option to bump their BS to 3+. That might be worth something all on its own.
I feel like the dakka jet has pulled ahead of the burna bommer since it can benefit from DDD and stratagems, where the burna bomb does not. I also want a wazzbom blastajet now.

Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?

CaptainO wrote:
Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?

No. It gives you benefit of cover which is +1 to save roll and specifically said to not work with inv save. It is also doesn't stack with blood axes so if you have all blood axe in field keep in mind they only benefit from that if enemy comes within 18" first turn.

I have an important question. Will a mix of clanz be called mushroom soup?

tneva82 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?

No. It gives you benefit of cover which is +1 to save roll and specifically said to not work with inv save. It is also doesn't stack with blood axes so if you have all blood axe in field keep in mind they only benefit from that if enemy comes within 18" first turn.

not just that, with prepared positions all ye grot units including mek guns, kans etc also get cover which they don't as BA.


on another note I wanna for the madness try mobbing up 30 meganobz then da jumping them on the first turn... only 1050 pts... 90 s10 -3 attacks

 Latro_ wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?

No. It gives you benefit of cover which is +1 to save roll and specifically said to not work with inv save. It is also doesn't stack with blood axes so if you have all blood axe in field keep in mind they only benefit from that if enemy comes within 18" first turn.

not just that, with prepared positions all ye grot units including mek guns, kans etc also get cover which they don't as BA

Well yes that. Point is it doesn't give 4++ and it doesn't stack up with blood axe bonus. Of course if you don't have blood axe bonus in the first place that helps. But something to keep in mind if you have largely blood axe force. 2 CP could end up being much wasted for little gain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
on another note I wanna for the madness try mobbing up 30 meganobz then da jumping them on the first turn... only 1050 pts... 90 s10 -3 attacks

Maximum amount of mega nobz in squad=10. You can mob up 2 units. Turn 1=20 meganobz maximum. For 30 you would need to wait for 2nd turn.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have an important question. Will a mix of clanz be called mushroom soup?

This is indeed important. I vote yes

 Jidmah wrote:

The idea behind the dual choppa is to have cheap nobz that die first. For example, you would put 3 PK nobz and 7 dual choppa nobz in a unit, or 5 BC and 5 dual choppas. Equipping all nobz with special weapons is a huge investement, and often doesn't pay off since they will rarely enter combat at full strength.
They basically take the role of slugga/choppa nobz.

I see. Makes sense in that case. I thought I had seen people thinking of taking full units of them. I

A trick I learned from watching DG players play: Put a small check-list on the back of your army list to make sure you don't miss any triggers. DG have a tons of auras that do mortal wounds at the beginnen or end of multiple phases, it's impossible to remember all of them without such a list.

Great idea this! Will be using this moving forward though knowing me I’ll still forget.

Larger bases increase the charge range from transports

Lol your positivity is as inspiring as always! Them silver linings.

They also wound most dark eldar vehicles and eldar bikes on 3+, with the option to bump their BS to 3+. That might be worth something all on its own.
I feel like the dakka jet has pulled ahead of the burna bommer since it can benefit from DDD and stratagems, where the burna bomb does not. I also want a wazzbom blastajet now.

Yea for me I think the wazzbomb is where it’s at. I’m planning on using all buggies except the Squig Buggy and 12 bikes. I’m not much afraid of chaff so the Dakkajet rarely gets chance to shine. He’s better than the burna and blitza though I think.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I have an important question. Will a mix of clanz be called mushroom soup?

No.

It's called fungus beer.

I was wondering : does "Big Killa Boss" (Warlord trait) work on shooting attacks or only on melee ? It doesn't specify in the french codex but the translations are sometimes completely off...

My Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun would be very happy to wound on 5+ at worst when he rolls snake eyes for the strength of his gun.

 Nym wrote:
I was wondering : does "Big Killa Boss" (Warlord trait) work on shooting attacks or only on melee ? It doesn't specify in the french codex but the translations are sometimes completely off...

My Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun would be very happy to wound on 5+ at worst when he rolls snake eyes for the strength of his gun.

Hmm good idea. At least english referred when attacking(IIRC) which would be both. And of course rolling average 7 means wounding T7 on 3+ and T8 on 4+ so could be handy. Though sniping is fun idea and it's almost as good with S2 vs vehicles still at least.

 Nym wrote:
I was wondering : does "Big Killa Boss" (Warlord trait) work on shooting attacks or only on melee ? It doesn't specify in the french codex but the translations are sometimes completely off...

My Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun would be very happy to wound on 5+ at worst when he rolls snake eyes for the strength of his gun.

I'm pretty sure it works with either. I tried a game with that trait, but the randomness of the SAG did not swing my way so it ended up doing nothing. Could be pretty scar though, especially on a deathskulls SAG

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The idea behind the dual choppa is to have cheap nobz that die first. For example, you would put 3 PK nobz and 7 dual choppa nobz in a unit, or 5 BC and 5 dual choppas. Equipping all nobz with special weapons is a huge investement, and often doesn't pay off since they will rarely enter combat at full strength.
They basically take the role of slugga/choppa nobz.

I see. Makes sense in that case. I thought I had seen people thinking of taking full units of them. I

Well the full unit is a cheap anti infantry tool that can rides in a trukk or bonebreaka. Due to the green tide nerf we now may have some problem in dealing with hordes and screeners since we basically only have boyz for that role and maybe warbikes and dakkajets, which are both decent at doing that most but not top units.

I'm not sold on giving nobz other upgrades than ammo runts because we have more effective anti tank in melee and shooting. Due to the bonebreakas, tankbustas, lootas and mek gunz I don't think we need those 3 pks hidden by cheaper bodies. I'd go with tellyported Meganobz or squadrons of Dreads for that role instead. 5 big choppas are not that effective against armored stuff. I'm usually not in favor of bringing versatile units that don't excel in anything, I prefer fielding units with a specific role but very good at it. Sticking special melee weapons in the unit makes nobz worse or basically the same against infantries while being more expensive, but not enough killy to threaten armored stuff.

So, 10 bare bones nobz or 5+ Meganobz, that's my 2 cents about that.

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm pretty sure it works with either. I tried a game with that trait, but the randomness of the SAG did not swing my way so it ended up doing nothing. Could be pretty scar though, especially on a deathskulls SAG

Well, I happen to be playing Deathskullz. So far my tests point to it being the best vehicle killa in our whole army (for Deathskulls), as long as the target doesn't have a strong invulnerable save (3++). It's really, really cheap for its damage potential and denies Slay The Warlord to our ennemies by staying in the backfield.

BTW what's been people's experience with gorkanaut? Mine was rather dissapointing but then again having basically only command barge, transcendant c'tan and nightbringer trio where to go maybe to be expected...Still felt 3 dreadnoughts would have been better.