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I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

I think Trukks are super underrated because they got a fairly squirrely buff in the Loot It stratagem, making them loads better at their job of suicide transport when you're looking at units with appreciable armor saves like Flash Gitz and Nobz. Combined with the points drop and their general usefulness with Ramshackle unexpectedly cockblocking D6 damage weapons and open topped letting them serve as mini bunkers for Lootas, you'll be seeing a lot more trukks. Just not trukks with boyz.

Boyz I think are still good but I think have narrowed their field of usefulness.

Deffskullz and Evil Sunz both like a footy squad of shoota boyz with a rokkit as a pretty cheap troop choice. Evil Sunz love a 30 squad and a 10 squad eating two troop choices and ready to blob together and fling at the enemy with da jump turn 1. I am kind of on the fence about trukk boyz with one of the offensive traits, particularly goffs. The extra 4 hits from the trait might make them useful, especially if you were going for a ghazzy-led mounted transport army? Again, not sure, haven't tested it, but if I were going for transported orks right now I'd probably reach for goffs.

Ability to move around fast. 15+4.5+8=28.5" threat range in average for T1 so you could even T1 charge against some armies. Also if your transport dies you footslog. And even T2 transport might not always be possible to charge at least to preferred target. Extra T and W also. Plus after 1st charge extra speed can be helpful.

Oh and it can boost the bikes into advance+assault unlike foot version who couldn't even keep up anyway.

Trukks it's debated yet can you loot it for passengers so there's that.

Thanks for some of the thoughts posted, I'd still be interested to know how the Big-Gun Kannon is ranking given the changes verses the KMK.

It seems it might have old krew rules (??)
It doesn't benefit from the Dakka Dakka Dakka rule
It's the same points, whereas KMK is + 30 points (??)

Any thoughts?

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

I think Trukks are super underrated because they got a fairly squirrely buff in the Loot It stratagem, making them loads better at their job of suicide transport when you're looking at units with appreciable armor saves like Flash Gitz and Nobz. Combined with the points drop and their general usefulness with Ramshackle unexpectedly cockblocking D6 damage weapons and open topped letting them serve as mini bunkers for Lootas, you'll be seeing a lot more trukks. Just not trukks with boyz.

I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

A Warboss on Bike cannot be targeted. You hide him, then unleash him against a Knight Castellan (that you charged with another unit beforehand), fight twice, die, fight a third time and erase this stupidely OP model from the board with a 100% certitude.

A Warboss in a Trukk will be targeted turn 1. Then he will footslog and never reach that Castellan.

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

Neither does warboss on foot though if index is allowed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

15 strong unit you want to transport and shoot out. 15 benefits from strategems more than 12. Battlewagon is often also going to be tougher.

I guess that's true. I think from an evil sunz perspective I'm putting the index bikerboss behind Zhardsnark and the Deffkilla, and by that point in my list building I'm generally going "eeeeeh, do I want the third warboss, or do I want to just close it out with a da jump weirdboy and call HQs done?"

Most of my lists bring the Deffkilla with supa-cybork over the index bikerboss. Plus, the bikerboss' turn 1 threat is a bit more in question as he moves 16" and advances D6 vs Zhard who moves 17" and advances 6".

Looking at it though maybe I'm just being overly attached to my one evil sunz character. Killa Klaw does score quite a bit more damage vs T7/T8 (9 wounds vs 6.5) and he is cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

Neither does warboss on foot though if index is allowed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

15 strong unit you want to transport and shoot out. 15 benefits from strategems more than 12. Battlewagon is often also going to be tougher.

Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know if I'm totally sold on the bonebreaka.

I think I like most people are going to be dropping their wagon out of the sky and then charging it, then the turn after whatever's inside is going to get out and start breaking heads.

If I bring a bonebreaka, I pay 20 points more for 3.5 extra deffrolla attacks, and I bring 12 models.

If I bring a battlewagon, I can stuff it with 20 of whatever I want, which then gets to shoot when I arrive because it has open topped. 16 tankbustas and 4 bomb squigs? 20 shoota boyz?

I don't know how much I love the prospect of those 12 models in the bonebreaka that don't get to do anything until turn 3. I'd rather bring a shooting focused or semi shooting focused unit and give them a nice clean shot turn 2, then a shot and melee turn 3.

In most situations out of deep strike I'd rather have 15 S4 AP- hits from 20 shoota boyz than 3.5 S9 hits from the bonebreaka.

the_scotsman wrote:
Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?

True that but not much 20 strong units that would really benefit from shooting from wagon anyway and have good strategem. Was thinking more of lootas and tank bustas so basically units that shoot like brick with strategem. In trukk less members fit=less effect from strategem which still is 1 per phase and costs same.

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?

True that but not much 20 strong units that would really benefit from shooting from wagon anyway and have good strategem. Was thinking more of lootas and tank bustas so basically units that shoot like brick with strategem. In trukk less members fit=less effect from strategem which still is 1 per phase and costs same.

15 tankbustas, 5 bomb squigs, More Dakka and Showin' Off.

There's your 20 man battlewagon unit.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

Neither does warboss on foot though if index is allowed.

You have no permission to drop mandatory wargear. You may only add wargear that was available from the index. Every model using the "Warboss" datasheet must take a kustom shoota, kombi-rokkit or kombi-skorcha.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

15 strong unit you want to transport and shoot out. 15 benefits from strategems more than 12. Battlewagon is often also going to be tougher.

That would be limited to tankbustas. Saving 60 points per unit beats having three additional rokkits in a unit that will probably blow any target mile-high when supported by stratagems.
Units of 15 tank bustas have not been a thing so far for a good reason. Stratagems don't change that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?

True that but not much 20 strong units that would really benefit from shooting from wagon anyway and have good strategem. Was thinking more of lootas and tank bustas so basically units that shoot like brick with strategem. In trukk less members fit=less effect from strategem which still is 1 per phase and costs same.

15 tankbustas, 5 bomb squigs, More Dakka and Showin' Off.

There's your 20 man battlewagon unit.

That's at least 415 points for a single unit, guess what's going to be dead after turn 1. Any army that brought at least some anti-tank can down a T7 battlewagon turn 1.

The whole set-up is strictly inferior to just having two units of 10 bustas and two squigs in a trukk.

I've tried a bad moon bikerboss with a relic toof-firing blunderbuss. He's decent at clearing chaff. Besides he still keeps order which is nice.

I tried the kskorcha but he doesn't get to shoot the skorcha part 1st turn as it's just 8 range. Not sure if it's worth 15 pt extra over a kshoota. But he can be brutal 2d turn. If he gets to live that is. Which is certainly not a given.

I think we're discussing whether a deep strike of a bonebreaka is better than a deep strike of a battlewagon - what the enemy can kill in one turn is irrelevant if you're deep striking, shooting (if you're in a battlewagon) and then charging the wagon.

not on the Meganobz train yet. even getting the charge after dropping in properly applied bubble wrap means you drop in, kill something weak and useless, , cannot get to the next layer of bubblewrap and then get shot off the table. They do make a good distraction carnifex as in my case it pulled shooting away from buggies and battlewagons, but the lack of inv save or feel no pain meant plasma adn anti tank was making them disappear.

the new bugguies witht he exepmtion of the squig buggy are good. scrapjet is the bees knees, squig buggie is a useless potato

anyone notice the typo on the Elite Mek that has a kustom mega-blasta as d3 damage?

don't have my book in front of me, might have been the spanna profile

 G00fySmiley wrote:
not on the Meganobz train yet. even getting the charge after dropping in properly applied bubble wrap means you drop in, kill something weak and useless, , cannot get to the next layer of bubblewrap and then get shot off the table. They do make a good distraction carnifex as in my case it pulled shooting away from buggies and battlewagons, but the lack of inv save or feel no pain meant plasma adn anti tank was making them disappear.

the new bugguies witht he exepmtion of the squig buggy are good. scrapjet is the bees knees, squig buggie is a useless potato

This is why we have bonebreaka. Put them in it with a Painboy. Teleport it into the enemies face. Shoot screen. If screen still there turn it into paste (but really you should be coordinating with other screen clearing units). Next turn get MANz out with Doc. Rev your kill saws. Destroy their juicy targets.

The bonebreaka is the best transport bar none. It gives us the possibility of literally running over a space marine captain with a rolling pin. For this alone it should be an auto include.

the_scotsman wrote:
I guess that's true. I think from an evil sunz perspective I'm putting the index bikerboss behind Zhardsnark and the Deffkilla, and by that point in my list building I'm generally going "eeeeeh, do I want the third warboss, or do I want to just close it out with a da jump weirdboy and call HQs done?"

Most of my lists bring the Deffkilla with supa-cybork over the index bikerboss. Plus, the bikerboss' turn 1 threat is a bit more in question as he moves 16" and advances D6 vs Zhard who moves 17" and advances 6".

Looking at it though maybe I'm just being overly attached to my one evil sunz character. Killa Klaw does score quite a bit more damage vs T7/T8 (9 wounds vs 6.5) and he is cheaper.


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tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

Neither does warboss on foot though if index is allowed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

15 strong unit you want to transport and shoot out. 15 benefits from strategems more than 12. Battlewagon is often also going to be tougher.

Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know if I'm totally sold on the bonebreaka.

I think I like most people are going to be dropping their wagon out of the sky and then charging it, then the turn after whatever's inside is going to get out and start breaking heads.

If I bring a bonebreaka, I pay 20 points more for 3.5 extra deffrolla attacks, and I bring 12 models.

If I bring a battlewagon, I can stuff it with 20 of whatever I want, which then gets to shoot when I arrive because it has open topped. 16 tankbustas and 4 bomb squigs? 20 shoota boyz?

I don't know how much I love the prospect of those 12 models in the bonebreaka that don't get to do anything until turn 3. I'd rather bring a shooting focused or semi shooting focused unit and give them a nice clean shot turn 2, then a shot and melee turn 3.

In most situations out of deep strike I'd rather have 15 S4 AP- hits from 20 shoota boyz than 3.5 S9 hits from the bonebreaka.

A warboss on bike is significantly more Killy than the Wartrike. Even before he gets the Killa Klaw that a trike cannot take.
Zhardsnark is number 1 though.

The real question Is what do you need the trike for? If you don’t have a vehicle you want to advance and charge there really isn’t any point..
Furthermore you can give your trike a relic supercybork but the warboss has no need since it benefits from painboyz.
I’m running all 4 it was good precodex it is better now.
The worst part pre 8th was they were targeted first because they hit hard and we didn’t have the first turn options we have now.
Now I can threat overload them and get my support units in range of my da jumped/deepstrike units.

 Jidmah wrote:


That's at least 415 points for a single unit, guess what's going to be dead after turn 1. Any army that brought at least some anti-tank can down a T7 battlewagon turn 1.

The whole set-up is strictly inferior to just having two units of 10 bustas and two squigs in a trukk.

If opponent can shoot bw he shoots 2 trukks with firepower to spare so even easier to take down. And more dakka helps 15 tankbustas/lootas/flash git more than 10/12


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
not on the Meganobz train yet. even getting the charge after dropping in properly applied bubble wrap means you drop in, kill something weak and useless, , cannot get to the next layer of bubblewrap and then get shot off the table. They do make a good distraction carnifex as in my case it pulled shooting away from buggies and battlewagons, but the lack of inv save or feel no pain meant plasma adn anti tank was making them disappear.

the new bugguies witht he exepmtion of the squig buggy are good. scrapjet is the bees knees, squig buggie is a useless potato

This is why we have bonebreaka. Put them in it with a Painboy. Teleport it into the enemies face. Shoot screen. If screen still there turn it into paste (but really you should be coordinating with other screen clearing units). Next turn get MANz out with Doc. Rev your kill saws. Destroy their juicy targets.

The bonebreaka is the best transport bar none. It gives us the possibility of literally running over a space marine captain with a rolling pin. For this alone it should be an auto include.

Very risky idea though. Against some armies that is death sentence for whole package

I love tankbustas but they ate expensive and fragile and short range even with transports (which only make them more expensive).

MSU deathskull tankbustas in trukks
Large badmoons blob in bonekrusha

Out of the two options above the badmoon bone Krusha is number 1 because of the double tap strat and every time I play tankbustas and get them in range they are dead the next turn. The double tap strat assures me they make thier points back and take out the biggest vehicle.

The problem with this strat it’s an all your eggs in the basket approach and I still prefer blobs and lots of klaws getting up close first turn.

Sucks chapter approved won’t help us and I don’t see anything in a faq that can help us unless they allow occupants in a Battlewagon to benefit from the ability to fire heavy wpns without penalty. But orks with index options are solid upper mid tier.
I still have hope someday we get a proper prime ork ghazskull

More dakka helps with wagon and heavy weapon while providing extra oomph along it. Makes me temped to try flashgits again. Before 24" sucked as if you move -1 to hit. Now flat 5 to hit and each hit extra shot. Buffed damage as well. Too bad freeboota :(

Is it allowed to use Strats on your tankbustas that are embarked in a transport? There was a post in YMDC that shoots that down.

Oh drat forgot that one. Though with flash git you can disembark and move forward into range. But good point. Humhum. Back to drawing board

Nuck Fewton wrote:
anyone notice the typo on the Elite Mek that has a kustom mega-blasta as d3 damage?

don't have my book in front of me, might have been the spanna profile

No such typo in my book. The codex has no other option but kustom mega slugga, KMB was d3 in the index but got updated to d6 in the codex.

lot of people are fixed on the bikerboss both because hes mean but also because 90% of ork players have some super awesome model for him they either built themselves or bought the FW model and they want to use the bugger.

Im trying to not use index, since nobody else in my area does it (really urks me not to put kustomshootas on nobz), but i refuse to accept footmek KFF and Bikerboss are gone. Couldnt really care about the MANz boss except for fluffy reasons imo.

I have a Wazdakka conversion that ive just been using as a standard boss on bike since Wazdakka vanished. Now if i avoid index i cant use that conversion PERIOD and that really grinds my gears. Despite it being like 7 years old its still one of my best conversions.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


That's at least 415 points for a single unit, guess what's going to be dead after turn 1. Any army that brought at least some anti-tank can down a T7 battlewagon turn 1.

The whole set-up is strictly inferior to just having two units of 10 bustas and two squigs in a trukk.

If opponent can shoot bw he shoots 2 trukks with firepower to spare so even easier to take down. And more dakka helps 15 tankbustas/lootas/flash git more than 10/12

Two trukks have 20 wounds and ramshackle (which roughly equals 6+++ against multi-damage) and are way easier to hide from view. There also is the issue of all the waste damage when a volcano lance or even d6 weapons overkill one trukk. And, the two trukks can be in two different places, making it difficult to kill them with something like a PBC or daemon prince.
All this outweighs the one additional toughness easily, which is irrelevant to most anti-tank weapons anyways.

You cannot have 15 flash gits.
Putting lootas in a vehicle makes zero sense, never did.
The difference between 12 and 15 rokkits is a whooping 0.07 wounds gained through more dakka (assuming wounding on 3+, less against T8), I'm sure you agree that's not worth spending an additional 111 points on the unit.

You are literally making up arguments at this point, please check your facts before arguing just for the sake of arguing.

The bonebreaka is the best transport bar none. It gives us the possibility of literally running over a space marine captain with a rolling pin. For this alone it should be an auto include.

Very risky idea though. Against some armies that is death sentence for whole package

Something is going to die first, there is nothing you can do about that. As long as all targets provided are of equal value to you, that's not a problem. The important part is that nothing is an obvious target that will take a lot less effort to kill than other targets.

gungo wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I guess that's true. I think from an evil sunz perspective I'm putting the index bikerboss behind Zhardsnark and the Deffkilla, and by that point in my list building I'm generally going "eeeeeh, do I want the third warboss, or do I want to just close it out with a da jump weirdboy and call HQs done?"

Most of my lists bring the Deffkilla with supa-cybork over the index bikerboss. Plus, the bikerboss' turn 1 threat is a bit more in question as he moves 16" and advances D6 vs Zhard who moves 17" and advances 6".

Looking at it though maybe I'm just being overly attached to my one evil sunz character. Killa Klaw does score quite a bit more damage vs T7/T8 (9 wounds vs 6.5) and he is cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

Neither does warboss on foot though if index is allowed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

15 strong unit you want to transport and shoot out. 15 benefits from strategems more than 12. Battlewagon is often also going to be tougher.

Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know if I'm totally sold on the bonebreaka.

I think I like most people are going to be dropping their wagon out of the sky and then charging it, then the turn after whatever's inside is going to get out and start breaking heads.

If I bring a bonebreaka, I pay 20 points more for 3.5 extra deffrolla attacks, and I bring 12 models.

If I bring a battlewagon, I can stuff it with 20 of whatever I want, which then gets to shoot when I arrive because it has open topped. 16 tankbustas and 4 bomb squigs? 20 shoota boyz?

I don't know how much I love the prospect of those 12 models in the bonebreaka that don't get to do anything until turn 3. I'd rather bring a shooting focused or semi shooting focused unit and give them a nice clean shot turn 2, then a shot and melee turn 3.

In most situations out of deep strike I'd rather have 15 S4 AP- hits from 20 shoota boyz than 3.5 S9 hits from the bonebreaka.

A warboss on bike is significantly more Killy than the Wartrike. Even before he gets the Killa Klaw that a trike cannot take.
Zhardsnark is number 1 though.

The real question Is what do you need the trike for? If you don’t have a vehicle you want to advance and charge there really isn’t any point..
Furthermore you can give your trike a relic supercybork but the warboss has no need since it benefits from painboyz.
I’m running all 4 it was good precodex it is better now.
The worst part pre 8th was they were targeted first because they hit hard and we didn’t have the first turn options we have now.
Now I can threat overload them and get my support units in range of my da jumped/deepstrike units.

Looking at standard T7 3+ vehicles, assuming dakkagunz = boomsticks = big shootas roughly (boomsticks do do slightly more tbf because of the +1 to hit but, meh.)

Bikeboss with Klaw: 4A @ -1 to hit S12 Ap-3 Dd3 = 2.95 and 2A @ S4 Ap-1 D1 = .28, 3.23 total wounds.

Bikeboss with Killa Klaw: 4A @ S12 Ap-3 D3 reoll wounds = 7.406 plus .28 from the squig = 7.69 total wounds.

Zhardsnark with the Pain Klaw: 5A @ S12 AP-4 Dd3 with the extra mortals on a 6 = 6.38 total wounds.

Trikeboss with the Snagga Klaw and Kill Jet melta profile: 5A @ S7 Ap-2 Dd3 reroll wounds = 4.16 + 2 shots at BS5+ S8 AP-4 Dd6 with melta = 1.99, 6.15 total wounds.

So, Killa Klawboss does outdamage both Zhard and Trike, but I think he has his drawbacks. His move (assuming evil sunz) is 16"+ (D6+1) + (2D6+1) versus 16"+7"+2d6+1 and 17+7+2d+1. 28" average charge threat vs 31"/32", probably won't make a big difference but it does exist. And the trike with the supa-cybork does win out significantly in durability with the extra wound and the 5+ FNP giving him 4 extra wounds on average than the bikeboss.

I think I'll probably run my Zhardsnark proxy as a killa klaw bikeboss and run both him and the trike. But I'm definitely not going for regular klaw bikebosses.

I see no reason NOT to use the index..
It was recently updated in the big faq to be current
It has a direct rules team reference chart made
It will be Allowed for the foreseeable future since there are a ton of GW store sold current models that have no other codex reference for use. (Pretty much all of the genecult, sisters, inquisitors, assassins, agents of imperium and a lot of khorne, slannesh) are pretty much only able to be used in the index.

So my guess is sometime after 2019 most of those models will be available outside the index and maybe then the index will go powerlevel only.

Reason: plenty of groups/tournaments don't allow it

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I guess that's true. I think from an evil sunz perspective I'm putting the index bikerboss behind Zhardsnark and the Deffkilla, and by that point in my list building I'm generally going "eeeeeh, do I want the third warboss, or do I want to just close it out with a da jump weirdboy and call HQs done?"

Most of my lists bring the Deffkilla with supa-cybork over the index bikerboss. Plus, the bikerboss' turn 1 threat is a bit more in question as he moves 16" and advances D6 vs Zhard who moves 17" and advances 6".

Looking at it though maybe I'm just being overly attached to my one evil sunz character. Killa Klaw does score quite a bit more damage vs T7/T8 (9 wounds vs 6.5) and he is cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm curious, why are people still so stuck on the index bikerboss? Just because he can rock the Killa Klaw? That's fine by me, but our transports are so good at this point I don't know why I wouldn't just take a regular, cheaper boss and pop the killa klaw on him.

He also has +1T +1W and doesn't have to take a kustom shoota, making him only a few points more than the foot warboss. Also, free dakka guns.

Neither does warboss on foot though if index is allowed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think trukks are the perfect vehicles for anything that wants to shoot out of its transport. Anything that doesn't can and should go inside a bonebreaka. Due to the point drop on trukks, I don't think there is a reason to take open topped battlewagons anymore, you could just take two trukks for the same price.

15 strong unit you want to transport and shoot out. 15 benefits from strategems more than 12. Battlewagon is often also going to be tougher.

Battlewagons transport 20 don't they?


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I don't know if I'm totally sold on the bonebreaka.

I think I like most people are going to be dropping their wagon out of the sky and then charging it, then the turn after whatever's inside is going to get out and start breaking heads.

If I bring a bonebreaka, I pay 20 points more for 3.5 extra deffrolla attacks, and I bring 12 models.

If I bring a battlewagon, I can stuff it with 20 of whatever I want, which then gets to shoot when I arrive because it has open topped. 16 tankbustas and 4 bomb squigs? 20 shoota boyz?

I don't know how much I love the prospect of those 12 models in the bonebreaka that don't get to do anything until turn 3. I'd rather bring a shooting focused or semi shooting focused unit and give them a nice clean shot turn 2, then a shot and melee turn 3.

In most situations out of deep strike I'd rather have 15 S4 AP- hits from 20 shoota boyz than 3.5 S9 hits from the bonebreaka.

A warboss on bike is significantly more Killy than the Wartrike. Even before he gets the Killa Klaw that a trike cannot take.
Zhardsnark is number 1 though.

The real question Is what do you need the trike for? If you don’t have a vehicle you want to advance and charge there really isn’t any point..
Furthermore you can give your trike a relic supercybork but the warboss has no need since it benefits from painboyz.
I’m running all 4 it was good precodex it is better now.
The worst part pre 8th was they were targeted first because they hit hard and we didn’t have the first turn options we have now.
Now I can threat overload them and get my support units in range of my da jumped/deepstrike units.

Looking at standard T7 3+ vehicles, assuming dakkagunz = boomsticks = big shootas roughly (boomsticks do do slightly more tbf because of the +1 to hit but, meh.)

Bikeboss with Klaw: 4A @ -1 to hit S12 Ap-3 Dd3 = 2.95 and 2A @ S4 Ap-1 D1 = .28, 3.23 total wounds.

Bikeboss with Killa Klaw: 4A @ S12 Ap-3 D3 reoll wounds = 7.406 plus .28 from the squig = 7.69 total wounds.

Zhardsnark with the Pain Klaw: 5A @ S12 AP-4 Dd3 with the extra mortals on a 6 = 6.38 total wounds.

Trikeboss with the Snagga Klaw and Kill Jet melta profile: 5A @ S7 Ap-2 Dd3 reroll wounds = 4.16 + 2 shots at BS5+ S8 AP-4 Dd6 with melta = 1.99, 6.15 total wounds.

So, Killa Klawboss does outdamage both Zhard and Trike, but I think he has his drawbacks. His move (assuming evil sunz) is 16"+ (D6+1) + (2D6+1) versus 16"+7"+2d6+1 and 17+7+2d+1. 28" average charge threat vs 31"/32", probably won't make a big difference but it does exist. And the trike with the supa-cybork does win out significantly in durability with the extra wound and the 5+ FNP giving him 4 extra wounds on average than the bikeboss.

I think I'll probably run my Zhardsnark proxy as a killa klaw bikeboss and run both him and the trike. But I'm definitely not going for regular klaw bikebosses.

Zhardsnarks mortal wounds ability is more useful then mathhammer suggest
I agree don’t take basic klaw it’s better (and cheaper) to take the relic killchoppa.
The 4 bikers in using are
Warboss on bike w killchoppa
Trike (warboss with brutal but kunnin)
Zhardsnark
And painboy on bike w Killa Klaw since it makes the painboy Killy and gives everyone including my dajumped Boyz (except trike) 5+ fnp.



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tneva82 wrote:
Reason: plenty of groups/tournaments don't allow it

No etc and it’s area of influence don’t allow it...(they don’t allow forgeworld either)
Warhammer world and most of England and all the ITC, adepticon and nova all allow it.
The index isn’t overpowered either it’s been nerfed several times and is very vanilla.

the_scotsman wrote:
Looking at standard T7 3+ vehicles, assuming dakkagunz = boomsticks = big shootas roughly (boomsticks do do slightly more tbf because of the +1 to hit but, meh.)

Bikeboss with Klaw: 4A @ -1 to hit S12 Ap-3 Dd3 = 2.95 and 2A @ S4 Ap-1 D1 = .28, 3.23 total wounds.

Bikeboss with Killa Klaw: 4A @ S12 Ap-3 D3 reoll wounds = 7.406 plus .28 from the squig = 7.69 total wounds.

Zhardsnark with the Pain Klaw: 5A @ S12 AP-4 Dd3 with the extra mortals on a 6 = 6.38 total wounds.

Trikeboss with the Snagga Klaw and Kill Jet melta profile: 5A @ S7 Ap-2 Dd3 reroll wounds = 4.16 + 2 shots at BS5+ S8 AP-4 Dd6 with melta = 1.99, 6.15 total wounds.

So, Killa Klawboss does outdamage both Zhard and Trike, but I think he has his drawbacks. His move (assuming evil sunz) is 16"+ (D6+1) + (2D6+1) versus 16"+7"+2d6+1 and 17+7+2d+1. 28" average charge threat vs 31"/32", probably won't make a big difference but it does exist. And the trike with the supa-cybork does win out significantly in durability with the extra wound and the 5+ FNP giving him 4 extra wounds on average than the bikeboss.

I think I'll probably run my Zhardsnark proxy as a killa klaw bikeboss and run both him and the trike. But I'm definitely not going for regular klaw bikebosses.

Thanks for doing the math!

I agree here. My army will probably be running both trike and the biker warboss, the trike allowing koptas, bonebreakas, dreads and buggies to advance and charge is reason enough to field it for me.


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gungo wrote:
No etc and it’s area of influence don’t allow it...(they don’t allow forgeworld either)
Warhammer world and most of England and all the ITC, adepticon and nova all allow it.

According to the guys who regularly play tournaments in my area there is no limit on using index options either.

Unfortunately i dont have a single boss with a bigchoppa lol i need to work on that so i can use kill choppa.

totally doing the gunslinger warboss idea though. Just need to find the right bits... sling a bigchoppa to his back