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They have the GRETCHIN keyword.

Unless at least one model in the unit does not have the GRETCHIN keyword, the unit cannot benefit from kultures.

Probably relevant for grot tanks, too.

the_scotsman wrote:
Dragsta vs Skrapjet on standard vehicle:

Rokkits from Skrapjet deal 2.44 damage, melee deals 2.77 (with one mortal wound on average from the ram). Ignoring the big shootas since they would most likely be shooting chaff.

Kustom Blasta and rokkits from dragsta deal 3.03 damage, and its melee deals .5 (so, presumably you wouldn't bother with melee with it).

So I would say the dragsta offers the safe and high mobility option, while the skrapjet offers the high risk high reward option.

I'd probably rate the skrapjet higher myself. But I dont think the dragsta is particularly useless.

I don't rate the squigbuggy at all, the boomdakka is at least not offensive due to its lower cost, but not inspiring either.

Im thinking tho that the favor gets heavily skewed towards the dragster once you factor in the deffskullz trait. The reroll to Damage die is huge.

I'm struggling to Mathhammer Deathskulls.

Under normal ork math, if I've got 2 shots, I'm going to statistically generate 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/9(DDD) = 7/9 = .7778 Hits.
If I get to reroll 1's, I get 7/18 + 7/18 + 13/108 (DDD) = 85/108 = 0.787 Hits. That wasn't that hard.
How do I do the math for getting to reroll 1 dice to hit? What are the odds of hitting on 5's rolling 2 dice with the ability to reroll one of them? How do I scale that up to 6 shots?

PiñaColada wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

skyfi wrote:
Ughh I thought they were mixed units and benefited. I thought only units compromised of only “grots” didn’t get the benefits. My apologies.

Nice to know they still will provide benefits for other freebooters. Heavy mekgun spam seems to favor freebooters. Hmm

Heavy mek gun spam benefits everyone. They are Green (gold?) even without kulture.

With kulture they would be Unobtanium because you have have no friends.

Agree. I'm still wondering if they're going to survive the FAQ. The traktor kannon is an easy fix should they want to, just state that they only autohit fliers. The smasha gun however, is amazing because it's basically free. Like it's dumb cheap. 31 points for that when the rukkatrukk squigbuggy is 140? GW works in mysterious ways

It's what happens when sculptors try math.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Dragsta vs Skrapjet on standard vehicle:

Rokkits from Skrapjet deal 2.44 damage, melee deals 2.77 (with one mortal wound on average from the ram). Ignoring the big shootas since they would most likely be shooting chaff.

Kustom Blasta and rokkits from dragsta deal 3.03 damage, and its melee deals .5 (so, presumably you wouldn't bother with melee with it).

So I would say the dragsta offers the safe and high mobility option, while the skrapjet offers the high risk high reward option.

I'd probably rate the skrapjet higher myself. But I dont think the dragsta is particularly useless.

I don't rate the squigbuggy at all, the boomdakka is at least not offensive due to its lower cost, but not inspiring either.

Im thinking tho that the favor gets heavily skewed towards the dragster once you factor in the deffskullz trait. The reroll to Damage die is huge.

Yeah the dragsta benefits more from deffskullz, bad moonz and in a weird sideways way from evil sunz - it just becomes ludicrously mobile advancing every turn!

 Jidmah wrote:
They have the GRETCHIN keyword.
Unless at least one model in the unit does not have the GRETCHIN keyword, the unit cannot benefit from kultures.
Probably relevant for grot tanks, too.

And this makes me sad :(. I really want to make/use grot tanks, but I fear the lack of kultur will render them even more suboptimal than they were.

tag8833 wrote:
I'm struggling to Mathhammer Deathskulls.

Under normal ork math, if I've got 2 shots, I'm going to statistically generate 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/9(DDD) = 7/9 = .7778 Hits.
If I get to reroll 1's, I get 7/18 + 7/18 + 13/108 (DDD) = 85/108 = 0.787 Hits. That wasn't that hard.
How do I do the math for getting to reroll 1 dice to hit? What are the odds of hitting on 5's rolling 2 dice with the ability to reroll one of them? How do I scale that up to 6 shots?

Try not dealing with dice but percentages instead; then you can use a variable like D to plug in for different numbers of attacks. The re-rolling bonus is going to only be a fraction increase over D?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Dragsta vs Skrapjet on standard vehicle:

Rokkits from Skrapjet deal 2.44 damage, melee deals 2.77 (with one mortal wound on average from the ram). Ignoring the big shootas since they would most likely be shooting chaff.

Kustom Blasta and rokkits from dragsta deal 3.03 damage, and its melee deals .5 (so, presumably you wouldn't bother with melee with it).

So I would say the dragsta offers the safe and high mobility option, while the skrapjet offers the high risk high reward option.

I'd probably rate the skrapjet higher myself. But I dont think the dragsta is particularly useless.

I don't rate the squigbuggy at all, the boomdakka is at least not offensive due to its lower cost, but not inspiring either.

Im thinking tho that the favor gets heavily skewed towards the dragster once you factor in the deffskullz trait. The reroll to Damage die is huge.

Yeah the dragsta benefits more from deffskullz, bad moonz and in a weird sideways way from evil sunz - it just becomes ludicrously mobile advancing every turn!

The dragster is great w deffskulls however I’d still take the scrapjet as an evil sun debatebly badmoon detachment as well.
I’m also not thrilled with giving my vehicles mortal wounds when I tellaport around for fun.
I also like the fact the scrap jet is good in melee as I need all the help I can give my boyz.

Ok, stupid question but I have to ask, can a Goff only list be viable?

I’m not a tourney player but I also don’t want my hind end handed to me each and every game.

Which units would best benefit from a straight Goff Kulture around 2000 points.

So far in actual collection I have 40 slug game boys and the AOBR Warboss...

Thoughts? Thanks for the advise.

for rerolling 1 dice to hit, i'd think you'd take the odds of having at least 1 miss (quite high), and multiply that by the chance of getting a hit (including DDD) from a single attack.

I'm looking at the Deffkilla wartrike entry and looking at the killa jets cutta profile. Does it auto hit on the cutta profile? So an autohitting melta?

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
I'm looking at the Deffkilla wartrike entry and looking at the killa jets cutta profile. Does it auto hit on the cutta profile? So an autohitting melta?

No...why would it autohit?

uhhh, I take that back, sortof. I can't tell if the line one applies to one profile and one to the other, or if they both apply to both.

ummm...back to my first thought. The first line applies to burna and the second to cutter. It makes no sense to roll 2 dice for damage on a 1 damage weapon, so the second detail must only apply to the second line. Presumably the first only applies to the first.

Nice try, though.


Good ol GW.

fething morons.

 JimOnMars wrote:
It makes no sense to roll 2 dice for damage on a 1 damage weapon

Oh, how wrong you are @gw

redboi wrote:
How does Loot It work with Deathskulls trait? Is the 6++ considered part of the units save characteristic?

No. Loot it helps save. That's the 6+ on datasheet. 6++ is another thing. With loot it boy save is then 5+. If you get hit by -0 weapon you save on 5+. -1 or better and 6+(no change to past).


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 Vineheart01 wrote:
True the Dragsta can definitely be a character sniper
Guess im just used to characters being in a ball of infantry.

That's because they usually are. And once that potential becomes more known opponents will take care of that. People already learned to cover against airplane flying next to character and snipe that way. Dragsta is not even as good as plane for that so it might work for a while until opponents remember that ability. And then you suffer -1 to hit or lose all those rerolls.


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 koooaei wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Reason: plenty of groups/tournaments don't allow it

Plenty of groups disallow fw. And some even ban low models.

Yes. And some countries use ITC rules which is even bigger change to "standard" 40k than "no index" and indeed big enough for it to not be even same 40k. You could say that with ITC America plays compleletely different 40k than europe. Point is you need to factor all the factors so just because X doesn't make sense where you play doesn't mean it doesn't make sense elsewhere because 40k version elsewhere is different. Lots of units don't make sense in ITC that makes sense in European units as the ITC and European 40k are so different and vice versa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyfi wrote:
Ughh I thought they were mixed units and benefited. I thought only units compromised of only “grots” didn’t get the benefits. My apologies.

Nice to know they still will provide benefits for other freebooters. Heavy mekgun spam seems to favor freebooters. Hmm

It's basically one model unit that has keyword gretchin. The grots and gun are basically one model. And only one line of keywords.


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 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

skyfi wrote:
Ughh I thought they were mixed units and benefited. I thought only units compromised of only “grots” didn’t get the benefits. My apologies.

Nice to know they still will provide benefits for other freebooters. Heavy mekgun spam seems to favor freebooters. Hmm

Anything that has the GRETCHIN keyword does not get benefit from cultures, unless there are models in that unit which do not have the GRETCHIN keyword, like nobz and ammo runts or big meks and grot oilers.
Or, in short, gretchin, kanz and mek guns don't benefit from cultures. Fun fact: big guns do benefit, as the artillery pieces are not GRETCHIN, thus making them a mixed unit.

Yo but dont mek guns also have artillery keyword?

Having artirelly keyword doesn't matter. You don't stop being "gretchin" just because you have other keywords. Or does tactical marine lose being space marine because he has tactical marine keyword?-)

What matters is if you have one set of keywords with gretchin and one without like this one:



Note how this index mek gunz had own keywords for gun itself. These would have got klan benefit. Current one doesn't as it has just 1 set of keywords

So, you're saying index mek gunz get a clan keyword...deffskull kannonz and grot gunners are gona be amazing.

So... If you can give Nobz 2 Sluggas... Don't Sluggas count as melee weapons, and doesn't that give them an extra attack in melee due to being paired weapons? Or is that not a thing anymore...

I'm realy liking the look of Deffskulls.

They have a 6++ invul, which means you always have a chance of saving your models. This also applies to vehicles, which is great. You don't have to rely on the KFF as much, which gives a bit more autonomy and allows you to field larger squads without fear of losing protection. You lose the 5++ but "gain" a 6++, which is better than nothing.

Unlike the snakebite trait, it does not override similar abilities, so you can stack the deffskulls trait with Doc Tools, cybork body or supa cybork body, thus increasing their resilience.
It also means Deffskulls are better with pain boyz than snakebites, and snakebites are technically better with KFF (as long as they can stay in it) which is an annoying fluff discrepancy. Another thing to write to GW about I suppose.

What's really good though is that reroll. If I read it right, you get a reroll to hit, wound and damage per unit.
Now, for something like mass light arms it doesn't matter;what's 1 reroll in a sea of dice? But for slow RoF heavy hitters, especially the KMB and KMK? Really valuable, as not only can you avoid the self-inflicted mortal wound from rolling a 1 in the case of the Kustom Mega weapons and increase your chance to hit overall, but you get even try to get a better damage result on the same turn.
Rolled a 1 for damage? No problem, just deffskull that gak.

 Chaplain Pallantide wrote:
Ok, stupid question but I have to ask, can a Goff only list be viable?

I’m not a tourney player but I also don’t want my hind end handed to me each and every game.

Which units would best benefit from a straight Goff Kulture around 2000 points.

So far in actual collection I have 40 slug game boys and the AOBR Warboss...

Thoughts? Thanks for the advise.

Hey mate I am a competitive player and I'm taking this goff only list to some fights this weekend. Maybe you'll get some ideas. I trapped myself into Goffs because im bringing so many transports, but the list is mechanised with nothing but heavy armour and 10 backfield orks during deployment.

9 drops in this list, and can deep strike a battlewagon should you wish (wouldnt recommend it unless desperate).
I'm bringing 19 boy squads to fit characters in my battlewagons, otherwise I would have two BW with 20 boyz, and 1 BW with 10 nobs and 5 characters, which will just die turn 1. So instead I'm spreading out the characters.

It is highly likely that ONLY nobz are better than boyz as Goffs. For example, for the same point cost instead of 20 boyz, I bring 10 nobz with double choppas. I can fit these squads in trukks, and shove a character or ammo runt in the spare seats. However, the deff rolla I think is legit, so I went this direction (and I dont have 30+ nobz yet).
Things that I considered in this list: Meganobz in trukks (I actually started here, but ended up deciding nobz in BW are much better), Dakka jets (to clear small screens), Zagstruk (warboss on bike is just better), Ghazkul (he's just too expensive), and more weirdboys (this list really wants da jump, warpath, AND fist of gork).

 Chaplain Pallantide wrote:
Ok, stupid question but I have to ask, can a Goff only list be viable?

I’m not a tourney player but I also don’t want my hind end handed to me each and every game.

Which units would best benefit from a straight Goff Kulture around 2000 points.

So far in actual collection I have 40 slug game boys and the AOBR Warboss...

Thoughts? Thanks for the advise.

Goffs only is not easy to field because you need shooty units that benefit only from other kultures, the alternative would be spamming Mek Gunz instead of Lootas and/or Bustas. You really need at least those 13+ CPs since Skarboyz, Tellyporta and Get Stuck In, Ladz are pretty much standard stratagems for Goffs and already 6+ CPs.

You could try something like:

Deffkilla
Warboss with Killa Klaw
Weirdboy
Weirdboy

30 Boyz
30 Boyz
10-12 Boyz
10-12 Boyz
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin

Bonebreaka
Bonebreaka
Bonebreaka

Which puts you around 1500ish points. To complete the list you can add Mek Gunz and a unit of melee specialists like Nobz or Meganobz to ride in a Bonebreaka. Alternatively replace a mob of 30 Boyz or 10 Gretchin with a third 10-12 man squad of Boyz in the Bonebreaka and Tellyported Meganobz or Dreads. A scrapjet or two could be nice as well.

Anvildude wrote:
So... If you can give Nobz 2 Sluggas... Don't Sluggas count as melee weapons, and doesn't that give them an extra attack in melee due to being paired weapons? Or is that not a thing anymore...

That rule doesn't exist anymore.
Now pistols just allow you to shoot in CC, and paired weapons doesn't exist either.
For whatever reason, they packed the extra attack from having two weapons into specific weapons, that they assume are used in conjunction with a pistol / CCW.

For example, void blades give an extra attack because they are often used by Praetorians, who use pistols.
Same idea with choppas.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
Thanks for some of the thoughts posted, I'd still be interested to know how the Big-Gun Kannon is ranking given the changes verses the KMK.

It seems it might have old krew rules (??)
It doesn't benefit from the Dakka Dakka Dakka rule
It's the same points, whereas KMK is + 30 points (??)

Any thoughts?

Big Guns still available with Index rules according to GW, are cheaper, have poorer stats, but still give high S shots. Being cheaper means more shots per point anyway - possibly better than having DDD? If the opponent targets them, more models is a bonus.

Can’ say how they would ‘rank’, but for me they are still a good choice.

 koooaei wrote:
So, you're saying index mek gunz get a clan keyword...deffskull kannonz and grot gunners are gona be amazing.

Problem is mek gunz got overwritten. Can't use datasheet from index if codex has same named

Taking into consideration you can have your own guilliman kannonz, they're superb.


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tneva82 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, you're saying index mek gunz get a clan keyword...deffskull kannonz and grot gunners are gona be amazing.

Problem is mek gunz got overwritten. Can't use datasheet from index if codex has same named

I mean big gunz, sorry

A couple of questions :

1) I guess Forgeworld units like Deff Dread, Grot Tanks, Kill Tanks etc don't benefit from kukturs? Just DDD

2) A squad of 10 Bad Moonz tank bustas with Extra Stikk bombs and Showin Off can throw 10d3 melta bombs twice a target. That's correct?

Deff Dredds aren't FW units. Pretty sure GW sells them.

Yeah, I think tankbustas can do that.
Don't have the codex with me now, I'll have to check the wording later.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Deff Dredds aren't FW units. Pretty sure GW sells them.

Yeah, I think tankbustas can do that.
Don't have the codex with me now, I'll have to check the wording later.

Sorry I meant Mega and Meka Dread

 koooaei wrote:
Taking into consideration you can have your own guilliman kannonz, they're superb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, you're saying index mek gunz get a clan keyword...deffskull kannonz and grot gunners are gona be amazing.

Problem is mek gunz got overwritten. Can't use datasheet from index if codex has same named

I mean big gunz, sorry

Ah well don't have index with me so can't check but if the big guns indeed are like mek guns(and don't see why not)...Yes. Kultures work.

 koooaei wrote:
So, you're saying index mek gunz get a clan keyword...deffskull kannonz and grot gunners are gona be amazing.

Sorry, dude, current GW flow chart re taking Index units precludes this. If there is a Codex entry for a unit, you can only use the Index entry for war gear.

Yeah you cannot use index Mek Gunz anymore, period. The only way to do so would be to only be using the Index, in which case no Kulturs exist.

Moriarty wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, you're saying index mek gunz get a clan keyword...deffskull kannonz and grot gunners are gona be amazing.

Sorry, dude, current GW flow chart re taking Index units precludes this. If there is a Codex entry for a unit, you can only use the Index entry for war gear.

He already said he miswrote and meant big guns.