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tneva82 wrote:

 vim_the_good wrote:
Hey all

Been building my new Deffkilla Wartrike and been thinking on how to get him up the board. So far I have:-
- Kult = Evil Sunz. +2"M, +1"Adv, +1"Charge
- Fuel Mixa Grot. 6" Adv instead of D6
- Strat Ramming Speed. 3D6 Charge.
- Maybe use the Kunnin' But Brutal Warlord trait to redeploy.

That would be a M+Adv+Charge of 33" on average. Can anyone get more out of this?

You are bit off actually. 16" base+7 for advance+11.5 for average charge=34.5" so 35.5" away will be tagged. Frankly that's overkill though. Save ramming speed. Orks are super hungry for CP and even without it you will get 31" anyway without ramming speed.

Agree, ramming speed is better suited if you have a chance to pull of a T1 Bonebreaka charge, since it doesn't have 'ere we go. Otherwise I'd save the CP. The mortal wounds are nice, but not worth 2CP in and out of itself save for very specific scenarios

 koooaei wrote:
So, here you go. Index guilliorks.

Deffskullz:
3 lil meks with kmb
3 solo koptaz with kmb
3x6 kannonz

Heard you like rerolls.

Love it. They're painted blue so they're like totally ultramarines haha

Looks like a decent foundation to a cheap brigade too

What's the melee profile for the Snazzwagon?

 zend wrote:
What's the melee profile for the Snazzwagon?

Just 4 attacks hitting on 4's at S5. It has no CC weapon. Might blow up though, deals d3 MW within D6" on a 4+

 Elfric wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
A couple of questions :

1) I guess Forgeworld units like Deff Dread, Grot Tanks, Kill Tanks etc don't benefit from kukturs? Just DDD

2) A squad of 10 Bad Moonz tank bustas with Extra Stikk bombs and Showin Off can throw 10d3 melta bombs twice a target. That's correct?

Grot tanks are Gretchin keyworded so no
Meka dread and kill tanks have the clan tag which confers kulturs

Shame about the Grot tanks as i have a Mega Tank and 4 regular tanks, but great news about my Mega Dread! I know it's expensive in money and points, but a Goff or Freebooter Kill Tank is frightening when you think about what it can do. Insane rate of fire depending on the gun, plus it's at Strength 10 if it charges in. Load up with Meganobz and go Knight hunting. You can even deepstrike a Kill tank as it's 18 PL.

The mega dread and meka dread have been combined into 1 mekrdread datasheet. Which is nice options however the amazing supa scotch arm is gone. Pretty much the only arms still sold are the killkannon, klaw/saw arm which is missing a unit entry for saw, shunta. Which doesn’t bode well for rattler or tractor options. However I’ve proxied the killkannon arm as a rattler since they look extremely similar and I bought the old mega dread body because it looked cooler.

I wouldn’t build index armies out of keywords. The index is usually FAQ with the codex in 2-3 weeks after release.
Non grot kannons might not make it.
Biker characters will but should go up in cost with chapter approved.
Burna kommandos should be completely fine

Hi,

I've been following the orks threads quite a bit whilst not posting and I enjoyed the commentaries on tactics in their games so I thought I'd post my thoughts of the ork codex:


With the early codex leaks, at first i was excited with all the very cool stratagems and interesting relics and traits etc then I admit my enthusiasm become tempered by some of the points changes or more often by some lack of point changes and the farce (imo) that was Orktober (I don’t mind the long wait but please don’t give me the impression we will have our codex in October). It didn’t stop me ordering the codex, cards, dice and scrapjet on preorder though and GW did impress me by getting it to my door on the Saturday around lunch time, so Kudos to them for that (is this normal with pre-order? I was expecting them on Monday).

With the unexpected pleasure of leafing through the codex on Saturday afternoon I couldn’t help but get that tingle of excitement again. Having a family + busy worklife the earliest game i could arrange against my mates was for last night (weds evening) so i put a 1200 pt list together. I was up against my usual 2 opponents who play Eldar + Dark Eldar and often tag team against me with Ynarri or pure codices. Nothing super competitive but does often includes decent amounts of shining spears + dissy ravagers, venoms, raiders, reapers and this was often just too much for my orks to handle... before.

Being considerate souls, they did not want to blow me off the table before I got a chance to play with my new stuff they brought a pretty soft but solid 1200 pts split 600 each way for them. 2 archons, 20 kabilites split into 3 squads, dis raider, razorwing, 7 shining spears, warlock, night spinner and blob of 20 guardians in webway + perhaps some extras I’m forgetting.

I wanted CP to spend but still to stay fluffy so I took 2 battalions, 1 snake bite: 2 wierdboyz, one as warlord warp ‘ead with the morale fearless and buzzbom + 3 x10 grots, then 1 evil sunz: warboss on bike with headchoppa killwoppa, naked big mek, 23 shoota boyz, 2 x 10 choppa boyz in trukk, 5 flashgitz in trukk, scrapjet and 2 traktor kannons. The idea was that all trukks would charge forward first turn with the flashgitz able to disembark into terrain if/when blown up, they would then ‘loot it’ and get a 2+ save in cover. Then everything else hell for leather into the enemy whilst grots get jumped to score objectives, funnel fliers and provide bubble wrap. Nothing clever but should be fun. Well things didn’t go quite as planned and we ended up that we didn’t play objectives just had a good old beat em up!

I deployed on my line more or less and they with gun boats deep behind a thin line of kabalites and spears hid for counter charge. I got turn 1 and everything but the mek gunz and flash gitz trukk advanced up. I Da jumped the shoota boyz up but they had blocked out their back field so were sat more or less where my trukks were. I killed the kabilites to a man in the shooting (i was rolling quite hot) and a traktor took 5 wounds from the razorwing. Nothing made any charges and their return fire took out 1 trukk + boyz, a few shoota boyz some wounds off the other boyz trukk, they had poor luck, then the shining spears commited, charged and killed the scrapjet (new model syndrome... and after I’d made a huge effort to get it painted in time for the game! =) ), but not before it did 3 wounds to the spears in overwatch from the big shootas... haha.

My second turn was about removing the shining spears in my shooting, with smite + gitz + a few random bits, the traktors failed to hurt the razorwing. Shoota boyz with ‘more dakka’ failed to land a single wound on an archon (16 successful shadowfield saves... rolled one by agonizing one...) then 10 gretchin shooting took 3 wounds off him... oh... the look on his face.. what a great moment. Not to be out done by their comrades, another group of gretchin did 2 of the wounds on the spears... heh! Warboss on bike failed to get through the invuln of the warlock on bike except for 2 mortal wounds.. grr... 1 wound short of killing him. On the Eldar/DE turn 2 they deleted my mekgunz (1 from ravager other from razorwing) brought in the guardians who killed 7 shoota boyz shooting and 2 wounds from the warboss (warboss on bike tanked like ‘da man’) then charged me (how odd!) where he killed 3 more shoota boyz. In CC with his guardians I killed 2 gun platforms, and 6 guardians between warboss (heroic intervention) and overwatch, then used 3 cp fight again with the boyz to kill 11 more. Their archon charged my non-warlord weird boy and slaughtered him. I used the CP to fight on after death and he killed the archon (I’d fists of gork/mork him in my turn on the off chance he may get charged rolling perils and causing 2 mortal wounds to himself.. hah). Eldar had also finished off the second trukk and the boyz inside.

My turn 3. Warboss on bike strips 7 wounds from the ravager between shooting and kilwoppa, warlord warp ‘ead smites the razorwing then uses the buzzbom on it, finishing it off (not its best use I’m sure but it made us all chuckle taking out a jetfighter with a grenade). Gitz were ineffectual against the ravager (all 4 saves on a 5+ invuln). And the grots swarmed the second archon bringing him down to 1 wound. I then used my last 3 CP to remove my ~8 shoota boyz left and bring them back on full strength, they shot and charged the night spinner stripping 7 wounds. Eldar/DE last turn they killed the warboss, stripped wounds from the flash gitz trukk, they had poor luck with shooting that turn.
We had to end it there due to time getting on but going on averages, I’d have killed either the ravager or spinner that turn, leaving only the other left so good chance of an ork win.

It was a fun game with both side feeling still in the fight until turn 3. The bringing back the extra boyz from the shoota squad felt a bit shady to be honest as it really turned ‘a close thing’ into swinging to the orks favour quite strongly. Without first turn i think I’d have lost a lot more earlier on and it would have been a convincing Eldar/DE win.

Things to take away from it. Weird boyz rock. Boss on bike rocks (sad to see him go when/if the index does!) Trukk boyz just don’t work for their points. I get boyz going up to 7, not sure i agree with it but i understand it, but the cost of them + the trukk whilst durable enough for the cost does not provide enough offense, imn which case I’m not sure what I’ve got them in my list for. Using around 190 points on transport really felt too much for what they did (give 2 fairly pitiful squads of boyz inside a sure fire charge on turn 2 if they survived). However, the trukk for the flash gitz was pretty much essential. Flash gitz didn’t perform for me. Perhaps i just didn’t get lucky and the 4 saved 5+ invulns on the ravager turn 3 didn’t warm me to them, even though its irrational to blame the gitz for that. Scrapjet seemed fine, but I didn’t really get a chance to use him much. He seemed durable enough with alright dakka (12 big shoot shots isn’t amazing but better than expected) and i can’t blame him for dying to 6 shining spears shooting their lances then charging him. Traktors were great, against elder they were spoilt for choice with targets and a much needed unit to deal with DE/Eldar. They scared the bejesus out of the elder fly units which was basically all their good stuff!. Strats were great and using 3 of the costly high CP ones in a row turned a near loss into a clear win (dead character fight again, infantry fight again, boyz regenerating). Grots managed to take down 2 shadowfields and bunch of wounds off archons. I’d forgotten to shoot one of them actually but my opponent kindly reminded me and regretted it shortly afterwards. Whilst I wouldn’t rely on them also don’t forget them! The boyz did a lot of heavy lifting so even at 7 points a pop, Ill likely never leave home without 50 of them at least and more in bigger games. And I still can’t wait to use the grenade strat.

Overall based on that I’ve only played with a limited number of units, I’d say orks are in good place as some of their strats are pretty bonkers good to mediocre good and its not because the units are awesome (at least the ones i tried this game). Strip those strats away and we would be a low tier army. The options we have are nice and the flexibility of choosing the right stratagem at the right time is not to be under appreciated. With my BA, i usually have 6 or 7 strat cards sat at the side of my game that i think I’ll use during the game, including the universal ones, with orks it was 10+. If you want to have maximum fun then I’d advise that you build around getting plenty of CP as they can be both game turning and provide a lot of fun.

On a side note, the scrapjet was a beautiful model to paint, however, my tip would be don’t add the wheels + track before you paint it. I found it hampered me more than I had expected.

Great rokkit buggy!

People keep bringing knights as a yardstick, anyone have a link to data sheet for them so I can follow along mo’ betta ? I found a imperial knight warden or something, I only remember much about Orks.


Was thinking how many smasha guns does it take to kill a knight on average with one turn of shooting?4+ D3 shots and he would only get a 5+ Vs the d6 damage? Granted you need to roll a 9 on 2d6 to wound... but if you have like 20 guns....

What’s a knight cost?? 620 points for 20 smasha guns (I mean I think we can only take 18 in matched play tho? 6 per “unit” and 3x units? Rule of three or somethin


Quick bad math hammer has me seeing like:

20 smasha Shoot at 4+ d3 = 30 shots
4+ bs so 15 hits
Need 9+ on 2d6 for wound so about 4 wounds
Knight invuln save one, 3 go through for 10.5 wounds on average.

Very underwhelming shooting at t8 (what I used) prolly more useful vs t7 and below of course.

Comparatively 600 points of traktor kannons would do like 15 wounds on avg per turn to same target.




Still kinda underwhelmed on dakkajet and it’s ljke the centerpiece of what I have painted. I figure clearing screens, preventing charges with its base, shooting fliers down/shooting infantry and light vehicles/finishing off units for +1 freebooters bonus (or hopefully already have bonus up before jet shoots so he will hit on 3+).... just like 12 shots for 128 points is steep for profile Supa shoota has. Maybe I’m just looking at it wrong

I recently did a battle report with Deathskulls klan. 6+ invul is pretty awesome since you get it in close combat. Reroll to hit, to wound, and dmg is amazing. I found that rerolling to hit you can actually get more shots since you get another chance to trigger dakka dakka dakka.

Also figured out a handly little trick with using more dakka strat to negate the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons.

skyfi,
Don't forget Dakkadakkadakka on the smash guns. It pushes them a bit more effective then the traktor kannons due to the extra shots.

 greggles wrote:
skyfi,
Don't forget Dakkadakkadakka on the smash guns. It pushes them a bit more effective then the traktor kannons due to the extra shots.

Yeah i prefer the smasha kannons over all the other cannons.

Dakkajet looks really nice to me i think just because of how ideal it is for taking down raiders/ravagers in terms of shooting profile. 148 points seems perfectly fine with me for 18 S6 AP-1 shots that hit on 4s on a hyper-mobile platform with hard to hit and fly. Is it incredible? Not really. Does it have good synergy with ork shooting kulturs and do it like its 1cp strat to get +1 to hit vs fly? Yeah, I do.

if I was actually looking for something to take down other flyers, I would probably prefer the wazboom jet since it can just pop More Dakka to hit on 5s and its got an actual anti-tank profile.

greggles wrote:skyfi,
Don't forget Dakkadakkadakka on the smash guns. It pushes them a bit more effective then the traktor kannons due to the extra shots.

Thanks! I hadn’t thought of that.

the_scotsman wrote:Dakkajet looks really nice to me i think just because of how ideal it is for taking down raiders/ravagers in terms of shooting profile. 148 points seems perfectly fine with me for 18 S6 AP-1 shots that hit on 4s on a hyper-mobile platform with hard to hit and fly. Is it incredible? Not really. Does it have good synergy with ork shooting kulturs and do it like its 1cp strat to get +1 to hit vs fly? Yeah, I do.

if I was actually looking for something to take down other flyers, I would probably prefer the wazboom jet since it can just pop More Dakka to hit on 5s and its got an actual anti-tank profile.

Suppose I could modify mine with some magnets for the bombs! I thought dakkajets could take 2 extra Supa shootas but I must have overlooked
It in book. I suppose I chose the anti infantry plane because if I’m running gits, smashas, traktor kannons, tank bustas and possibly small squad of lootas, in addition to some klaws on the nobs/Warboss/mek I would have some decent anti tank. Felt like I needed something to help thin hordes out aside from a blob of 30 boys.


Another thought on freebooters ..


I know follow me lads is pretty good and what I intend to take, but the other freeboota one... Edited post because I mistakenly thought the freeboota ability for warlords was +1 to hit within 6 not reroll 1s. That being said..

Can get +2 to hit in melee with freebooters rerollinf 1s within 6” of warlord not sure what is possible with that. Why I was kinda thinking meganobs would be good with them also. Figure bonebreakas, manz, killsaw and Klaw nob deathstar with a big Grot shield.. anything that would normally hit on 4+ down to 2+ rerolling 1s.. what is that like 97.49% accuracy in melee ( like up 14% from 2+?)? I know getting down to 2+ isn’t terribly hard but gettinthere with 60 Klaw attacks.. or being able to keep Normal ws3+ units at 2+, or project 2+ WS places where the banner isn’t..

skyfi wrote:



Quick bad math hammer

Going to try and correct it if that's OK

You can only get 18 smasha guns with rule of three, so let's go for that for 558pts

Average of 2 shots apiece, 18 hits, and 21 after dakkadakkadakka
They don't need to BEAT the toughness on 2D6, just equal it, so need an 8 or more on 2D6 = 41.6% chance of wounding
so 8.75 wounds

If knight has 5++ then this means 20.4 wounds
If 4++ then 15 wounds
If 3++ then 10 wounds, though there's a reasonable chance of the knight player using a CP re-roll to stop a shot...


Some math against fliers

Against a T6 3+ save flyer with a -1 to hit smashas do 35 wounds
Against the same flyer, the equivalent points cost in traktors only do 25 wounds

If the flyer has a 5++ then the traktors win out as the smasha output drops to 24 wounds and the traktors are unchanged

Against a -2 (or -3 or -4) to hit T6 flyer the smashas do 17.5 wounds, and the traktors remain at 25. So even in the best case scenario the traktors are not significantly ahead.


Smashas are also more durable per point, as they'll have around 18 wounds for every 12 points of traktors you put on the table. Auto hitting sounded awesome on paper but I believe it is a trap unfortunately! Smashas are just superior...

 DoomMouse wrote:

skyfi wrote:



Quick bad math hammer

Going to try and correct it if that's OK

You can only get 18 smasha guns with rule of three, so let's go for that for 558pts

Average of 2 shots apiece, 18 hits, and 21 after dakkadakkadakka
They don't need to BEAT the toughness on 2D6, just equal it, so need an 8 or more on 2D6 = 41.6% chance of wounding
so 8.75 wounds

If knight has 5++ then this means 20.4 wounds
If 4++ then 15 wounds
If 3++ then 10 wounds, though there's a reasonable chance of the knight player using a CP re-roll to stop a shot...

Thank you


That’s nearly killing a knight a turn if someone else can do like 5 wounds? Is a knight 558 points? I figure about 600-700, not sure. Figure knight lists usually has like 3?

Just updated the last post with some anti-flyer math too.

Knights are 350-450 points typically, with the big 28-wound castellan being 600

skyfi wrote:
People keep bringing knights as a yardstick, anyone have a link to data sheet for them so I can follow along mo’ betta ? I found a imperial knight warden or something, I only remember much about Orks.


Was thinking how many smasha guns does it take to kill a knight on average with one turn of shooting?4+ D3 shots and he would only get a 5+ Vs the d6 damage? Granted you need to roll a 9 on 2d6 to wound... but if you have like 20 guns....

What’s a knight cost?? 620 points for 20 smasha guns (I mean I think we can only take 18 in matched play tho? 6 per “unit” and 3x units? Rule of three or somethin


Quick bad math hammer has me seeing like:

20 smasha Shoot at 4+ d3 = 30 shots
4+ bs so 15 hits
Need 9+ on 2d6 for wound so about 4 wounds
Knight invuln save one, 3 go through for 10.5 wounds on average.

Very underwhelming shooting at t8 (what I used) prolly more useful vs t7 and below of course.

Comparatively 600 points of traktor kannons would do like 15 wounds on avg per turn to same target.




Still kinda underwhelmed on dakkajet and it’s ljke the centerpiece of what I have painted. I figure clearing screens, preventing charges with its base, shooting fliers down/shooting infantry and light vehicles/finishing off units for +1 freebooters bonus (or hopefully already have bonus up before jet shoots so he will hit on 3+).... just like 12 shots for 128 points is steep for profile Supa shoota has. Maybe I’m just looking at it wrong

When calculating effective shooting against knights you should consider their ability to get up to 3++ easilly.

How many wounds are the other gits vs the castellan?

Thanks @ koo btw. 3++ is nasty.

skyfi wrote:
How many wounds are the other gits vs the castellan?

Thanks @ koo btw. 3++ is nasty.

Only vs shooting though. Which is why melee vs knights is the preferred method to waste them.

Yeah, but you're firing the smasha guns separately so unless it's a specific knight you want to kill (such as someone running a Castellan, which is common to be fair) then you can simply shoot another one when they rotate ion shields.

Knights are most commonly run 1+ rest is a conventional army though, so it doesn't help then. But if they have several then they can only reach 4++ on two or 3++ on one a 5++ on the rest, unless they are using the forgeworld knights

Hmm. Vs knights then, klaws / killsaws? I have never got to play against em! I figure if I can melta bomb one when TB’s using CP then that’s the ticket but they are likely to die afterward.

Then 3+ klaws en masse (or 2+ if I have freeboota kulture buff up, but unlikely against knights I would think) would probably be best route?

Yeah, but you're firing the smasha guns separately so unless it's a specific knight you want to kill (such as someone running a Castellan, which is common to be fair) then you can simply shoot another one when they rotate ion shields.

So basically declare with the first smasha gun, they rotate ion shields, shoot the rest of the guns at other knights? (since each smasha gun fires separately?)

 greggles wrote:

Yeah, but you're firing the smasha guns separately so unless it's a specific knight you want to kill (such as someone running a Castellan, which is common to be fair) then you can simply shoot another one when they rotate ion shields.

So basically declare with the first smasha gun, they rotate ion shields, shoot the rest of the guns at other knights? (since each smasha gun fires separately?)

definitely the way to do it when opponent has multiple knights.

The toughest knight to deal with is the solo knight tacked onto a CP generating army. In that instance I think the "Smashboss Method" (send a Killa Klaw bikeboss into it for a suicide run, spend 5cp to fight 3 times and deal 24 damage on average in one shot) is probably the best (only) solution.

Meganobz will one-shot a knight with a fight twice strat.

That’s a lot of cp! I also don’t have a proppa base sized biker boss :( need to work on that. Don’t think anyone wants me to use the weedy git I have

Seems like not very many actual points to get the job done though

Here is some shooting math-hammer for you guys.


The data chart is here


How I did the math:



Some things I learned
- Gunwagons just aren't that good. Even shooting twice. Our main guns just don't put out enough anti-vehicles damage. They might perform better when targeting Primaris marines or bikes.
- Tankbustas are still boss. Even against Magnus, they beat out most other options.
- Lootas are fine, but not great against big stuff. I know the argument is going to be, "But I can Shoot Bad Moons Lootas Twice", and that is true, but you can do the same thing for tankbustas.
- All 3 Mek Gun Variants performed well. I don't think there is a wrong option there. But against T7 and less, the Smashagun gets a lot better.
- Flashgitz out performed my expectation. I couldn't figure out how to calculate an ammo runt, so they'd be even better if that was thrown in.
- Poor Killa Kans and Deffkoptas. At least Killa Kans can contribute in assault as well.
- the 4 KMB Deffdread gimmick doesn't quite add up. Maybe a a Deffskulls one, but at that point, you should just be taking a SJD.

skyfi wrote:
That’s a lot of cp! I also don’t have a proppa base sized biker boss :( need to work on that. Don’t think anyone wants me to use the weedy git I have

Seems like not very many actual points to get the job done though

high CP expenditure/low points expenditure is the standard heavy thing solution in 8th

Thanks Tag8833, That's amazing!

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

Moriarty wrote:

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
Thanks for some of the thoughts posted, I'd still be interested to know how the Big-Gun Kannon is ranking given the changes verses the KMK.

It seems it might have old krew rules (??)
It doesn't benefit from the Dakka Dakka Dakka rule
It's the same points, whereas KMK is + 30 points (??)

Any thoughts?

Big Guns still available with Index rules according to GW, are cheaper, have poorer stats, but still give high S shots. Being cheaper means more shots per point anyway - possibly better than having DDD? If the opponent targets them, more models is a bonus.

Can’ say how they would ‘rank’, but for me they are still a good choice.

I think in the index everyone agreed they were the poor-man's artillery choice, but they sound like they might be a bit of a sleeper unit now, given that (due to their absence in the codex) they're retaining a lot of the features nerfed from the Mek Gunz, if what Koooaei stated (meant to state) about kannons having Klan traits, the Gunz being Orks, then that sounds like they might be dead nasty.

In which case, and also regardless of Klan rules, does anyone think it might be the better long-range support unit??

Perhaps wait for CA to drop - that might affect your decision.

With that kind of performance out of Smasha Gunz, Flash Gitz and KMKs the Freeboota Kultur is looking better and better as a soup option as long as they don't change it so grots can't trigger the Kultur. 3 gretchin, badrukk and a sag mek make a nice little Freeboota battalion IMO - and they work good with all the shooty buggies that don't benefit so well from Evil Sunz.

Most of my army lists right now are shaping up to be about half evil sunz - full melee deff dreads, a big mobbed up boyz blob, Deffkilla, Zhardsnark and Smashboss shuttling everyone in, and half Freebootas - flash gits, badrukk, mek gunz, and shooty buggies like the dragsta and skrapjet.