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I'd like to point out that a deffskull kannon deals 50% more damage than a smasha gun against a 4++ knight.

OK sounds good to me

100 points of deathskull kannons = 3.7 kannons
Vs 5++ knight - 3.7 shots, 2.775 hits, 2.08 wound, 1.39 failed saves, 5.9 wounds caused
Vs T7 3+ sv 2.775 hits, 2.46 wound, 1.64 fail save, 6.9 wounds caused

100 points of smashas = 3.22 smashas
Vs 5++ knight - 6.44 shots, 3.76 hits, 1.56 wound, 1.04 failed save, 3.5 wounds caused
Vs T7 3+sv 3.76 hits, 2.5 wounds, 2.5 through armour, 8.77 damage

Smashas seem to be better against medium armour without invulns, and have more wounds (though you do lose the 2 grot un-shootable units that kannons have)

 koooaei wrote:
I'd like to point out that a deffskull kannon deals 50% more damage than a smasha gun against a 4++ knight.

GW is bound to de-kulture the index entries...so this only helps for a week or so.

 koooaei wrote:

When calculating effective shooting against knights you should consider their ability to get up to 3++ easilly.

Only on ONE knight which YOU know so if you want to avoid it you can. Also remember smasha guns shoot up one at a time. If you select first and he uses RIS then you can switch target and it's back to 5++ and you have effectively lost just one smasha gun which might not even hit or wound or bounce off to 5++ anyway.

I also play knights and I haven't found RIS THAT usefull. It's best when you only have ONE knight.

(same reason btw hinders grot screen when you have more than 1 unit that could benefit like 2 lootas or loota+mega nobs)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moriarty wrote:


Perhaps wait for CA to drop - that might affect your decision.

CA is almost certainly already printed etc. Unlikely it has any ork changes. Last year tyranids were 100% untouched. Lead times mean that any release close to december will be too late to really change CA for it.

The codex FAQ in about 1.5 weeks meanwhile....

Query:

We don't get to use the death skull re-roll on embarked units (like in a truck) correct? (Since they aren't on the table). Trying to fiddle around with MSU style lists maximizing the re-rolls with blastas and rokkits.

That's interesting question. Don't see why not though. It's not external unit/thing affecting it but unit's ability. And certainly all dark eldars I have faced have used their chapter trait inside venoms so...If death skulls can't then neither can they and that would change quite a lot!

Well then, this trukk gets a mek, and that trukk gets a mek, and you get a runtherder, and so do you! Woah Runtherders got expensive...guess everyone gets Meks.

What runtherds were there for? Aura abilities won't work outside.

Planning to run whole pile of KMB dethskull mek's?-) Expensive but that would be one hell of a gunboat...Though rule of 3 prevents worst spam.

On that theme howabout 2 min burna mob and 2 lone mek\s with KMB spanner in trukk? That's 4 KMB's each with rerolls...Too bad you can only take 1 such trukk. 2nd has only 3.

Kannons sound great, but; they're 12" shorter than Smasha Guns (36" vs 48") - do you feel this would matter?

Edit: Regarding the KMB trukkboat - is that cheaper than taking a Deffdread with 4kmb?

fe40k wrote:
Kannons sound great, but; they're 12" shorter than Smasha Guns (36" vs 48") - do you feel this would matter?

Edit: Regarding the KMB trukkboat - is that cheaper than taking a Deffdread with 4kmb?

Naah KMB trukkboat costs about 160 pts more but a) it also packs in 8 burna's to fire with b) it's faster(until trukk gets destroyed anyway) c) it has rerolls for all KMB's vs 1 reroll the deffdread has. So it's not that easy comparison.

What is KMB?

Nevermind I figured it out!

Second edit: Thanks for the reply though!

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
What is KMB?

Kustom Mega Blaster

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
What is KMB?

Kustom Mega Blaster

*Blasta

Planning to run whole pile of KMB dethskull mek's?-) Expensive but that would be one hell of a gunboat...Though rule of 3 prevents worst spam.

Mainly just throwing in an extra Mek into the mix in trukk/battlewagon squads if there is room. They are expensive, but scattering rokkits and KMB's all over the army will really help across the board. I have a mix of painted bad moonz and deff skullz, so trying to figure out a double battallion that maximizes the two kultures, while not limiting me too much. (trying to keep all transports on one side, but then no 2x fire tankbustas)

With kannons I was more just thinking short-term, I'd love GW to consider lowering their cost if they do apply their Mek-Gun "nerf" though.

Regarding the Freebooter lists, I've not played yet so I'm just spitballing but...

I'm thinking multiple small units are especially good for all Freebooters, but especially Flashgits imo.
The Kaptain can take a free targeting squig for +1 BS, additionally the kaptain can take a Slugga/Choppa(probably a better choice)
So if you go with 15 (for example) gits and split them up, that's 2 more kaptains (3 total) getting a +1 BS and something to hit with in melee
This also means the Ammo-Runt can be spent on the, less likely to fail, Kaptain's roll first (should he fail) before the other gits
Additionally, as with all Freebooters, by shooting in smaller segments you're increasing your chances of triggering the freebooter Klan trait (granting +1 BS) for the remainder of the force (2+ BS Kaptains, 3+ BS Gitz).
You're also taming the volatile 1/6 chance of shooting again by rolling it 3 smaller groups
(And obviously, for completion's sake, being near Badrukk will grant them a reroll to 1s, grouped or not)

Perhaps someone has another point towards taking larger groups of them though.

Also, having grot "shields" seems very complimentary to having Flashgits, not just to take wounds (using the Gitz upgraded stats), but also to intercept melee troops with, and then withdraw to allow the foe to be gunned down.
I'm not sure if this now warrants the Runtherder, since taking and keeping large groups of grots is so important.

Smasha / Un-FAQ Kannons, should fire first since they won't gain anything from the Klan bonuses they'll hopefully trigger, but from then on I guess you have to be more tactical with what shoots next.

Anyone got any suggestions on what the Bulk of a freebooter melee force should be? I'm tempted to go for Fast-Attack (Stormboyz/Bikers/Biker Boss) and Deep-Striking (Mega-Nobz/Stormboyz)

I just noted there is no more mini game on the Bubblechukka. You simply roll values as the need arises.

I'm starting to develop appreciation for the care put into making sure some of our bad stuff got better. The Kustom Mega line got better, all the Mek weapons and Mek toyz got better. They made the artillery better per model, so you don't have to sink a paycheck into a gunz units to get results.

Deff Rollas got better.

I do wish Burna Blitza Bommas would have gotten better


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deff Dread with four KMB is 6 points more expensive then five tankbustas, and would require much more effort to remove if tellyported in. I honestly think I might proxy 3xDeffskull Dreadz like this. EDIT2, maybe with 1 Dread Klaw fir an AP value if I want to be in CC

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
Anyone got any suggestions on what the Bulk of a freebooter melee force should be? I'm tempted to go for Fast-Attack (Stormboyz/Bikers/Biker Boss) and Deep-Striking (Mega-Nobz/Stormboyz)

Not tried it - and likely won't for ages due to missing the models - but I had an idea like:

Brigade:
3 Weird Boys.
2*30 Shoota Boyz.
4*10 Grots
1 Painboy.
2 KMB Meks
3 Megatrakk Scrapjets.
2 4*KMB dakkadreds.
9 Smasha guns.

That leaves a reasonable chunk of points left to play with. Not sold on KMB Meks - but they are cheap. Was tempted by some kommandos to claim back field objectives/tie up artillery style units - but not convinced thats a great use of points. Tankbustas also might be a shout - although a proper squad in a trukk isn't cheap.

Anyway - take Follow me Lads as Warlord Trait on a Weirdboy for 16 CP. Use 4 to make the Big mobs 'Ard Boyz - followed up by Prepared Positions if you go second. 4+/6+++ orks are not efficient to shoot (and its not as if all these other units can just be ignored). You can use looted if sensible to get this in later turns.

I went with shootas because the plan would be for these units to move up and gun down a small chaff unit (guardsmen squad for instance), activating competitive streak on everything else.
If post-FAQ the RAW reading that MEQ guns etc can activate competitive streak (I suspect they won't be allowed to do so, but could be wrong) I'd probably go back to Sluggas.

I realise going freebooters and not taking Flashgitz is probably heresy - but eh. You could trade out the dakkadreads and smasha guns for 15 flash gitz - but I don't think you would have a better army. Although maybe it needs testing.
If I was serious i'd say scrap the dakkadreds for more smasha guns - why leave home without 18 - but I feel they are bound to get a points increase at some point and I like the concept of dreads.

Where do we send in feedback to "Hopefully" influence the Codex FAQ?

SemperMortis wrote:
Where do we send in feedback to "Hopefully" influence the Codex FAQ?

Usually this

40KFAQ@gwplc.com

Be sure to complain about their stupid no-model-no-rule policy, which shouldn't be anywhere near orks.

tneva82 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

When calculating effective shooting against knights you should consider their ability to get up to 3++ easilly.

Only on ONE knight which YOU know so if you want to avoid it you can. Also remember smasha guns shoot up one at a time. If you select first and he uses RIS then you can switch target and it's back to 5++ and you have effectively lost just one smasha gun which might not even hit or wound or bounce off to 5++ anyway.

I also play knights and I haven't found RIS THAT usefull. It's best when you only have ONE knight.

(same reason btw hinders grot screen when you have more than 1 unit that could benefit like 2 lootas or loota+mega nobs)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moriarty wrote:


Perhaps wait for CA to drop - that might affect your decision.

CA is almost certainly already printed etc. Unlikely it has any ork changes. Last year tyranids were 100% untouched. Lead times mean that any release close to december will be too late to really change CA for it.

The codex FAQ in about 1.5 weeks meanwhile....

chapter approved was already in a promo video it’s done.
I expect no changes except point adjustments to forgeworld and index units...

I expect our faq in 2 weeks will include some index changes and a bunch of reworded changes half of which make me scratch my head asking why

I’m fully expecting chapter approved to nerf my biker boss list with massive price increases in chapter approved... if I’m lucky the meka dread gets a price cut but point cuts are rare.
however I expect my burna kommandos to come through unscathed.

tag8833 wrote:
Here is some shooting math-hammer for you guys.


The data chart is here

Spoiler:

How I did the math:

Spoiler:

-Average case calculations normalized to 100 points spent of unsaved wounds to a given target.
-No Strategems or Clan traits were considered, but unit specials rules (Such as TB rerolls) were.
-Because of this, some things will perform better in game than the chart would indicate.
-For instance, Bad Moons Lootas go up, while Bad Moons tankbustas are generally unaffected (except against magnus). A DeffSkulls SJD or Wazbom is notably better than a no-clan one.
-On the other side, Mek Gunz and Killa Kans will do worse by comparison because they don't benefit from those things.
-Also, I'm not accounting for transports, or screens. So Tankbustas, Lootas, and Flashgitz all require additional support.

Some things I learned
- Gunwagons just aren't that good. Even shooting twice. Our main guns just don't put out enough anti-vehicles damage. They might perform better when targeting Primaris marines or bikes.
- Tankbustas are still boss. Even against Magnus, they beat out most other options.
- Lootas are fine, but not great against big stuff. I know the argument is going to be, "But I can Shoot Bad Moons Lootas Twice", and that is true, but you can do the same thing for tankbustas.
- All 3 Mek Gun Variants performed well. I don't think there is a wrong option there. But against T7 and less, the Smashagun gets a lot better.
- Flashgitz out performed my expectation. I couldn't figure out how to calculate an ammo runt, so they'd be even better if that was thrown in.
- Poor Killa Kans and Deffkoptas. At least Killa Kans can contribute in assault as well.
- the 4 KMB Deffdread gimmick doesn't quite add up. Maybe a a Deffskulls one, but at that point, you should just be taking a SJD.

That really doesn't seem to add up to a lot of wound against knights. Even the max of tankbusta (which are pretty much a 1 use suicide squad vs knights) wont be able to kill 1 knight.
Keep hearing ork need to melee knights, but what irks can kill knights in melee?

Knights are just bad news for Orkz. We really need a better LoW option, that can go toe-to-toe with a Knight, but without an Invuln Save, the Stompa ends up being a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a note, a 3 Deff Dread unit with 1 Klaw and 3 Saws might do alright against a Knight, assuming they can make it into CC.

 flandarz wrote:
Knights are just bad news for Orkz. We really need a better LoW option, that can go toe-to-toe with a Knight, but without an Invuln Save, the Stompa ends up being a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a note, a 3 Deff Dread unit with 1 Klaw and 3 Saws might do alright against a Knight, assuming they can make it into CC.

you can make them evil suns and Port them in 3 for 2 CP to help facilitate that.

 flandarz wrote:
Knights are just bad news for Orkz. We really need a better LoW option, that can go toe-to-toe with a Knight, but without an Invuln Save, the Stompa ends up being a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a note, a 3 Deff Dread unit with 1 Klaw and 3 Saws might do alright against a Knight, assuming they can make it into CC.

There is enough melee and klaws and tankbombs here to take out a knight. This is my list.

Turn 1
35xboys warpath and da jumped
They are there to eat the knights screen and any overwatch for
A bike star of painboy on bike w relic klaw, Wartrike w extra damn trait, warboss on bike w relic BC, zhardsnark And 3 scrapjets
That group with any shooting should take out a normal knight..if castellan they probably need back up and 2 turns.

Turn 2
25x more Boyz (warpath and dajump)
meka dread w 30x grot screen arrive (grots go for objectives)
As well as 2x klaw/saw dreads (from deep strike) and 12x burna kommandos
Smasha guns taking shots where they can!

Turn 3+
Warphead can start jumping himself around and sniping key units w smite...
Most have a 5++, 6+++, and 2+ grot screen turn 1
15cps (1xwarphead, 1xmob up, 2xtellyporta, 1xtra gubbins)
You still have 10x cp for battle
16 drops for first turn bid..
And much of it is tougher then it appears

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Orks) [141 PL, 2000pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

+ HQ +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]: Brutal but Kunnin, Snagga Klaw, Warlord

Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 91pts]: Big Choppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Warphead (1 CP)

Zhadsnark Da Ripper [7 PL, 120pts]
. Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 175pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa & slugga
. 24x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz [4 PL, 70pts]: 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Slugga & Choppa

Boyz [11 PL, 175pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa & Slugga
. 24x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Kommandos [4 PL, 48pts]: Tankbusta Bombs
. 4x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna

Kommandos [4 PL, 48pts]: Tankbusta Bombs
. 4x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna

Painboy on Warbike (Index) [6 PL, 103pts]: Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw

+ Fast Attack +

Megatrukk Scrapjet [16 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrukk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

Megatrukk Scrapjet [16 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrukk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

Megatrukk Scrapjet [16 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrukk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dread [11 PL, 200pts]
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw

Mek Gunz [6 PL, 93pts]
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun

Meka-Dread [12 PL, 275pts]: Kustom Force Field
. Killkannon + Rippa Klaw

++ Total: [141 PL, 2000pts] ++

 greggles wrote:

Planning to run whole pile of KMB dethskull mek's?-) Expensive but that would be one hell of a gunboat...Though rule of 3 prevents worst spam.

Mainly just throwing in an extra Mek into the mix in trukk/battlewagon squads if there is room. They are expensive, but scattering rokkits and KMB's all over the army will really help across the board. I have a mix of painted bad moonz and deff skullz, so trying to figure out a double battallion that maximizes the two kultures, while not limiting me too much. (trying to keep all transports on one side, but then no 2x fire tankbustas)

After playing with deathskulls, I think people are really undervaluing those hidden guns. Put a single rokkit in your boy squads, give your nob squads a single kombi-rokkit. put a rokkit on your trukks, hide a mek in with your battlewagons/trukks, give your dread a KMB. All that fire power adds up real quick and you can really surprise your opponent with an unexpectedly effective round of shooting, and no single target for them to retaliate against to shut it down.

Updated Math
I made a glaring error the 1st time I posted this math. I used the old flash gitz weapon profile (S5 1D) instead of the new one (S6 2D). That makes quite a difference.


Datatable


That is right, Flashgitz outperform Tractor Kannons. They are amazingly improved. Wow. If you could take them as Bad moons, they would be the most OP thing in the Ork Codex. Note that they perform notably worse against Rhinos, but Dark Eldar Vehicles....

Doctor-boom wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Old Math

That really doesn't seem to add up to a lot of wound against knights. Even the max of tankbusta (which are pretty much a 1 use suicide squad vs knights) wont be able to kill 1 knight.
Keep hearing ork need to melee knights, but what irks can kill knights in melee?

You are misunderstanding how I did the calculations. I normalized it to 100 points. 10 TB with 2 BS is 190 pts. They do about 10 wounds to a Knight. By the time you add a Strategem or Klan Kulture 2 such squads will kill a knight fairly easily.

I'd say orks are in a really good spot for killing knights.
- knight is not as effective at killing orks as it is at killing more expensive stuff other factions get
- relik klaw boss will halve a knight in one go if you buff him with a wierdboy. Fight twice or fight after death and the knight is dead or close to dead. All for very cheap
- we have plenty of mellee options that have gone better, cheaper, improved mobility or even got a deepstrike like manz, deffdreads, bonekrushas. Even regular nobz can do the trick in a pinch. Don't forget the fight twice strategem and +1 attack buff from a wierdboy.
- even regular boyz with a klaw/saw nob will deal around 4 wounds to a knight. That's not strictly mathhammer as it's below average but that's around the right amount you can expect from 20-ish fighting boyz and a nob. Doesn't sound like much but a couple wounds here, a couple wounds there and it adds up quickly. Besides, knights can't guarantee they can wipe whole squads from afar as they don't have this sort of firepower. And than endless greentide comes into play.
- we're often fielding 2-3 wierdboyz.
- some of our shooting options are not half bad compared even to other factions. Tankbustas, mek/big gunz. Badmoon tankbustas have decent odds of halving a knight with a shoot twice strat. And if you get into a 6' range, grenades will do the work.

100 points of units doing 4 damage on a knight isn't bad in general. Didn't someone conclude that a unit should kill 1/3 of its points per turn to be fair?

It seems 400 points of orks are killing 2/3 of it's weight in knights per turn....twice as good as the 1/3 rule.

Of course a lot of stuff kills more than 1/3 of its points per turn, hence the problem with alpha strike in 40k.

Considering the meta that's out there, how many point should a unit get back per turn to be considered "good?"

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

Also, having grot "shields" seems very complimentary to having Flashgits, not just to take wounds (using the Gitz upgraded stats), but also to intercept melee troops with, and then withdraw to allow the foe to be gunned down.
I'm not sure if this now warrants the Runtherder, since taking and keeping large groups of grots is so important.

Though then your splitting up backfires a bit as it basically negates the grot screen strategem for the flashgits.

Max unit of Bad Moons Tankbustas with More Dakka and Showin' Off are LEGIT. And you can Tellyport them down to keep them safe. Granted that's like 6-7cp but you are going to wreck something hard. I bet a Castellan is going to drop to that double-salvo. Too lazy to do the math though. Drop a unit of 30 Gretchin in front of them so they can possibly survive to do it again next turn. At this point you're going to be strapped for CPs though.

You can save a couple of CPs and drop them in a BW, however what is this nonsense I hear that you couldn't use stratagems on embarked units? I haven't heard a compelling argument against it yet. I'll take it to YMDC if it becomes a debate but if someone has a summary why that might be the case I'm all ears.