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I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

Most Necron vehicles have Quantum Shielding meaning 2D6 pick highest is more of a liability than strength. I'm not sure if anyone runs croissants anymore... But sure, Traktor kannons have their uses. I like the ubiquity of KMK better myself.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

The problem is the cost.
I will always prefer 3 Smasha than 2 traktors.
And very much always prefer 2 Smasha vs 1 KMK.

Its more shots, more wounds, and more angles covered.

I'm at work so here's my latest 2k from memory. Going to a game day, probably facing mid to high tier Tau, Knights, Drukhari and other lists.

Deffskulls brigade
2x SAG Big Mek
Deffkilla Wartrike
3x KMB Minimek
30 boyz
5x10 grots
3x Dragsta
3x Smasha gun
3x Traktor
Bonecrusha with Kannon

Bad Moonz Battalion
2x Weirdboy
3x10 grots
15 Tankbustas

That's 20 cp. Probably teleport in the Bonecrusha empty and Ramming Speed it, teleport in the Tankbustas and fire twice. After that it's just MSU re-roll abuse on a sea of plasma grade D6 damage weapons and mek gun spam, with 1 trike missile and 1 jumping boy mob to tie up loose ends.

I'm not feeling great about the grot tax but I want to play around with massive cp for my first few games, see if they're worth it.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

Wouldn't the KMK be more efficient over all though, due to the higher number of shots? I mean, you do have to roll to hit, but you also get more than one shot.
I don't know, the tractor cannon's single shot doesn't appeal to me. You can only deal at most 6 damage, and that's if you are lucky. You need at least 2 if you want to deal good damage in a single turn, and I'd still rather use KMK just because of the extra shots, which means more damage overall.
In terms of priority and frequency, I would go KMK - Smasha - Traktor, with traktor only being available if there's room for it.
Bubblechucka is not even under consideration because its gak. What is even the point?

Yes, a lot of necron units have fly, but as they come in numbers or are protected by quantum shielding, traktor cannons aren't actually that great against them; single shots aren't that effective against squads, and rolling 2 dice and select the highest would actually decrease damage output due to getting negated by QS.

Flying characters tend to be protected by an invul, and as such a single shot might not even get through.

Most aircraft have more than 6 wounds, so you need at least 2 traktor cannons if you want to have a chance at kill a flyer in 1 turn.
You can probably kill aircraft with 1 KMK or Smasha gun, although you will be hitting on 5s, so some of that potential damage would be mitigated.

Keep in mind that Mek Guns still benefit from Dakka Dakka Dakka, which tends to be better on weapons with multiple shots rather than single shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klone12 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

The problem is the cost.
I will always prefer 3 Smasha than 2 traktors.
And very much always prefer 2 Smasha vs 1 KMK.

Its more shots, more wounds, and more angles covered.

That's true, smashas are cheaper than KMKs, but they are only D3, and are probably better against infantry than vehicles, at least on paper.
Then again, I found it surprisingly common to roll 8+ on 2d6, so it might handle anti-tank duty just as well.

Klone12 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

The problem is the cost.
I will always prefer 3 Smasha than 2 traktors.
And very much always prefer 2 Smasha vs 1 KMK.

Its more shots, more wounds, and more angles covered.

How it deals with -1 to hit though? Or -2? Plenty of those around.

tneva82 wrote:

Klone12 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

The problem is the cost.
I will always prefer 3 Smasha than 2 traktors.
And very much always prefer 2 Smasha vs 1 KMK.

Its more shots, more wounds, and more angles covered.

How it deals with -1 to hit though? Or -2? Plenty of those around.

By rolling more dice
More Dakka works on Mek Gunz, so you can use that to negate -2 hit modifiers.
-1 would be trickier to avoid, but if you generate at least 3 shots at least one of them should hit. Smasha guns being a little cheaper helps.

Rolling dice only goes so far. When you need 6 dice to equal 1...Well hopefully you cost 1/6.

And more dakka works on ONE mek gun. One KMK with it isn't all that hot anti-air...

tneva82 wrote:

Klone12 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think traktor cannons are all that niche. Almost every army has a good flier or two:
- Most space marine fliers are a pain in the rear, since they are pretty durable and usually come with great anti-horde and/or anti-vehicle weapons. Be it storm ravens, storm talons, repulsor, nephelim jetfigher, darkshrouds or the corvus blackstar. You'll glad to have an auto-hitting multi-melta against those.
- A lot of nasty characters have fly. Daemon princes, captains, sorcerers, commanders, librarian dread, jetbike farseers and more. Remove their screen and hit them hard.
- Some armies like eldar, tau or necrons are almost guaranteed to have multiple flying units, as many of their choices simply come with fly.

If everything else fails, you still get three missile shots that always hit. I think for TAC splitting your mek guns equally across KMK, smasha guns and tactor is the way to go, as you'll have the tools to handle anything, and don't lose too much when the optimal targets for each gun aren't present.

The problem is the cost.
I will always prefer 3 Smasha than 2 traktors.
And very much always prefer 2 Smasha vs 1 KMK.

Its more shots, more wounds, and more angles covered.

How it deals with -1 to hit though? Or -2? Plenty of those around.

Rolls of 6 always hit, so spray and pray.
Triggers are useless for orks, because why would you ever want to stop shooting?
more dakka isbalways my answer.

tneva82 wrote:
Rolling dice only goes so far. When you need 6 dice to equal 1...Well hopefully you cost 1/6.

And more dakka works on ONE mek gun. One KMK with it isn't all that hot anti-air...

Ah that's true, it does.
Well, neither is the traktor cannon that amazing at anti-air, really. Its 15pts less than a KMK but has a lower RoF and as such lower damage. It can't even proc DDD.
The only thing it has going for it is auto-hit. If it weren't for that I would put it in the same category as the bubblechucka.

Autohit, auto explosion. Damage output vs space marine is pretty much spot on(slight advantage to traktor kannon) point for point. -2 to hit(still plenty common with all the eldar fliers and strategems out there) and advantage goes bigger.

tneva82 wrote:
Autohit, auto explosion. Damage output vs space marine is pretty much spot on(slight advantage to traktor kannon) point for point. -2 to hit(still plenty common with all the eldar fliers and strategems out there) and advantage goes bigger.

Auto explosion is nice, but its only against vehicles, and if your opponent knows about it beforehand they could space it out.
As I said, the auto-hit is the only reason why I even consider taking it, but only in pairs and if I have room. Otherwise its a mediocre weapon for its price.

I recently placed 3rd in local 160-man tournament with index ork list featuring 18 KMK (played against dark angels, imperial knights, tau and tau). The problem with KMK is MW on “1” witch might not seem all that bad, but facing “-1 to hit” armies, especially wave serpents, means that you deal more damage to yourself than enemy not that rarely, which I tasted during trainings agaist 7-serpent list of my teammate.
Still the insane points increase of KMK makes Smashas much more appealing. But due to the number of eldars and DE/Harleyquins lists i will stick to 12 smashas+6 traktors for some time. Being able to destroy a serpent or hemlock per turn with decent certainty - is a bliss.

The greatest impact on mek gunz’ uzefulnezz is the anihilation of grots. Their backline scoring and deepstrike protection was priceless. I cried bloody tears when I saw new codex.

Why GW, oh why?

Depends on target. It's not be end weapon but for example that KMK is point to point worse than traktor vs marine fliers and way worse against eldar fliers/dark eldar vehicles with strategem etc before even factoring in auto explosion. And btw that ability can pay off even if he spaces out. He spaces out, his skimmers don't fill up 2nd floor so you can actually assault them rather than being 100% immune to any assault like dark eldar/eldar/necron vehicles for example tend to be.

 Fan67 wrote:
I recently placed 3rd in local 160-man tournament with index ork list featuring 18 KMK (played against dark angels, imperial knights, tau and tau). The problem with KMK is MW on “1” witch might not seem all that bad, but facing “-1 to hit” armies, especially wave serpents, means that you deal more damage to yourself than enemy not that rarely, which I tasted during trainings agaist 7-serpent list of my teammate.
Still the insane points increase of KMK makes Smashas much more appealing. But due to the number of eldars and DE/Harleyquins lists i will stick to 12 smashas+6 traktors for some time. Being able to destroy a serpent or hemlock per turn with decent certainty - is a bliss.

The greatest impact on mek gunz’ uzefulnezz is the anihilation of grots. Their backline scoring and deepstrike protection was priceless. I cried bloody tears when I saw new codex.

Why GW, oh why?

They actually changed that in the codex.
Now its one or more unmodified rolls of a 1.
So -1 mods no longer inflict mortal wounds, and you can only suffer a maximum of 1. So that won't happen anymore.

 Fan67 wrote:
I recently placed 3rd in local 160-man tournament with index ork list featuring 18 KMK (played against dark angels, imperial knights, tau and tau). The problem with KMK is MW on “1” witch might not seem all that bad, but facing “-1 to hit” armies, especially wave serpents, means that you deal more damage to yourself than enemy not that rarely, which I tasted during trainings agaist 7-serpent list of my teammate.
Still the insane points increase of KMK makes Smashas much more appealing. But due to the number of eldars and DE/Harleyquins lists i will stick to 12 smashas+6 traktors for some time. Being able to destroy a serpent or hemlock per turn with decent certainty - is a bliss.

The greatest impact on mek gunz’ uzefulnezz is the anihilation of grots. Their backline scoring and deepstrike protection was priceless. I cried bloody tears when I saw new codex.

Why GW, oh why?

What was the rest and how would you adjust the rest of your list knowing you still keep 12 smasha and 6 traktor?

tneva82 wrote:
Depends on target. It's not be end weapon but for example that KMK is point to point worse than traktor vs marine fliers and way worse against eldar fliers/dark eldar vehicles with strategem etc before even factoring in auto explosion. And btw that ability can pay off even if he spaces out. He spaces out, his skimmers don't fill up 2nd floor so you can actually assault them rather than being 100% immune to any assault like dark eldar/eldar/necron vehicles for example tend to be.

Fair enough, but that still depends on if your opponent are taking such targets. I suppose though that if your range of opponents is wide enough, that increases the chances of running into such things.
I'd still prefer a more general approach though.

Good point about forcing your opponent to spread out and position in ways he wouldn't normally do. That is pretty handy.

There is one thing that's really sad though about mek gunz, especially KMK - they can't use clan traits, which means no deathskull rerolls.
So you can't get higher damage or avoid mortal wounds.

Edit : And apparently you can't even use More Dakka, as it doesn't specify that it affects Gretchin. Well gak.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Fan67 wrote:
I recently placed 3rd in local 160-man tournament with index ork list featuring 18 KMK (played against dark angels, imperial knights, tau and tau). The problem with KMK is MW on “1” witch might not seem all that bad, but facing “-1 to hit” armies, especially wave serpents, means that you deal more damage to yourself than enemy not that rarely, which I tasted during trainings agaist 7-serpent list of my teammate.
Still the insane points increase of KMK makes Smashas much more appealing. But due to the number of eldars and DE/Harleyquins lists i will stick to 12 smashas+6 traktors for some time. Being able to destroy a serpent or hemlock per turn with decent certainty - is a bliss.

The greatest impact on mek gunz’ uzefulnezz is the anihilation of grots. Their backline scoring and deepstrike protection was priceless. I cried bloody tears when I saw new codex.

Why GW, oh why?

They actually changed that in the codex.
Now its one or more unmodified rolls of a 1.
So -1 mods no longer inflict mortal wounds, and you can only suffer a maximum of 1. So that won't happen anymore.

Also it was always max 1 damage. After I was notified that I think I only ever got affected by that like once.

List tailoring and factions/meta tailoring are two different things. Why on Earth should I consider a TAC list that involves any possibile option in the 40k universe while I know, maybe not 100% but still with goods odds, what I may face on the battlefield?

Besides, I can adjust my list if I know my opponent's army but I may not have a clue about what units he will field. I mean, even orks can be played as a green tide with only cheap 1W bodies or with tanks spam.

Tailoring a list is also certainly better than refusing to play against someone because your best TAC list doesn't stand a chance in that specific game.

With knights list tailoring and faction tailoring are the same things because knights only have knights to choose from But otherwise list tailoring happens only if you know the exact list of your opponent, not the faction or a few units in his army.

Also merging with grots stole the chapter tactic from the gunz... which hurts. I’d love freebooters gunz.

Klone12 wrote:

What was the rest and how would you adjust the rest of your list knowing you still keep 12 smasha and 6 traktor?

My index list was as follows:


The understrength unit in auxiliary detachment was considered legal by TO, but was subject of heated discussion due to vague wording of the rule. But i’d just drop the power klaws from boyz to get the missing grots.

New list is heavily changed. I dropped both meks (cause our local rules doesn’t allow index units), got one MA Mek instead, dropped warboss and got Wartrike instead, droped 3*10 boyz and all power klaws and got 3*10 gretchins instead. List consists of two blood axes battalions and includes boss snikrot. Warlord is MA Mek.

 Blackie wrote:
List tailoring and factions/meta tailoring are two different things. Why on Earth should I consider a TAC list that involves any possibile option in the 40k universe while I know, maybe not 100% but still with goods odds, what I may face on the battlefield?

Besides, I can adjust my list if I know my opponent's army but I may not have a clue about what units he will field. I mean, even orks can be played as a green tide with only cheap 1W bodies or with tanks spam.

Tailoring a list is also certainly better than refusing to play against someone because your best TAC list doesn't stand a chance in that specific game.

With knights list tailoring and faction tailoring are the same things because knights only have knights to choose from But otherwise list tailoring happens only if you know the exact list of your opponent, not the faction or a few units in his army.

Yeah. I mean, sure you might be playing against a Dark Elder guy, but you don't know what he's going to bring.
He could bring venoms, he could just foot slog a bunch of wracks. You don't actually know.
You can prepare a list that covers the possibility that he's bringing venoms, but you don't really know that. If you go heavy traktor he might bring something that they are useless against.
I don't consider that as list tailoring. I consider that to be strategy. Its not really any different than preparing for a tournament, except on a smaller scale.
List Tailoring would be if you know exactly what he's taking and you finely tune your list to counter each element in his army. And that's boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fan67 wrote:
Also merging with grots stole the chapter tactic from the gunz... which hurts. I’d love freebooters gunz.

Klone12 wrote:

What was the rest and how would you adjust the rest of your list knowing you still keep 12 smasha and 6 traktor?

My index list was as follows:

Spoiler:

== Battalion Detachment == <Bad Moons Clan> + 5 CP
HQ1: Warboss (55), Shoota (0), Big Choppa (7), Attack Squig (0), Headwoppa's Killchoppa (free) – [62] – WARLORD (Might is Right)
HQ2: Weirdboy – [62] – Psychic Powers: Smite, Warpath
HQ3: Big Mek (55), Kustom Force Field (20) – [75]
Troop1: 10 Ork Boyz (60), Boss Nob(0), 10 Shootas (0) – [60]
Troop2: 30 Ork Boyz (180), Boss Nob (0), 30 Shootas (0), Power Klaw (13) – [193]
Troop3: 10 Ork Boyz (60), Boss Nob (0), 10 Shootas (0), Power Klaw (13) – [73]
Elite1: Painboy (40), Power Klaw (13) – [53]
HS1: 6 Mek Gunz (90), 30 Grot Gunners (60), 6 Kustom Mega-kannons (102) – [252]
== Battalion Detachment == <Bad Moons Clan> + 5 CP
HQ4: Weirdboy (62) – [62] – Psychic Powers: Smite, Da Jump
HQ5: Weirdboy (62) – [62] – Psychic Powers: Smite, Da Jump
HQ6: Big Mek (55), Kustom Force Field (20) – [75]
Troop4: 30 Ork Boyz (180), Boss Nob (0), 30 Shootas (0), Power Klaw (13) – [193]
Troop5: 10 Ork Boyz (60), Boss Nob (0), 10 Shootas (0) – [60]
Troop6: 30 Ork Boyz (180), Boss Nob (0), 30 Shootas (0), Power Klaw (13) – [193]
Elite2: Nob with Waaagh! Banner (75), Kustom Shoota (4) – [79]
HS2: 6 Mek Gunz (90), 30 Grot Gunners (60), 6 Kustom Mega-kannons (102) – [252]
== Auxiliary Detachment == <Bad Moons Clan> - 1 CP
HS3: 6 Mek Gunz (90), 6 Kustom Mega-kannons (102) – [192]

The understrength unit in auxiliary detachment was considered legal by TO, but was subject of heated discussion due to vague wording of the rule. But i’d just drop the power klaws from boyz to get the missing grots.

New list is heavily changed. I dropped both meks (cause our local rules doesn’t allow index units), got one MA Mek instead, dropped warboss and got Wartrike instead, droped 3*10 boyz and all power klaws and got 3*10 gretchins instead.

Spoiler:

I like your orks. They are really nice.
Sad to hear about the meks. Still can't believe they were dropped from the codex. What a stupid policy.
What does the mega armored mek have? KFF again?

Guys, why do you think GW eliminated grot-gunners while they separated them from gunz in Index FAQ? What made them think it was good idea?
CA2018 is near, do you think we can expect any buffs or rules changes apart from looted vehicles ( which apparently will be useful only in narrative and open play like landraider constructs)?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I like your orks. They are really nice.
Sad to hear about the meks. Still can't believe they were dropped from the codex. What a stupid policy.
What does the mega armored mek have? KFF again?

Thanks! I was a bit tired from dark nurgle themed armies and wanted bright colors.

Yeah, KFF is essential to orks survival, never leave home without one.
New stratagem helps to cover both boyz and gunz in first turn. Later mek sticks with gunz.

Fan67,
That's a really pretty ork army. Very nice! Do you have an instagram/twitter?

 Fan67 wrote:
Guys, why do you think GW eliminated grot-gunners while they separated them from gunz in Index FAQ? What made them think it was good idea?

As always, any rules oddity can be explained by GW having no clue how their own games work. And crewed artillery in particular has been tripping them up in both Fantasy and 40k since the games existed. They had no clue that allowing crew to run around freely as a small and cheap unit would be abused and they keep repeating the same mistake still (see stupid gak like units of 2 CSM in the Blackstone Fortress 40k datasheets).

What does the phrase "....explodes automatically (or the equivalent result). Does this effect non vehicle flyer?

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
What does the phrase "....explodes automatically (or the equivalent result). Does this effect non vehicle flyer?

No. Reread the rule again.
It's to cover vehicles with the FLY keyword that do not crash and burn. For example, skimmers.

So no, you cannot make a flyrant explode.

I mean.. durrr. LOL I know that. But what would happen to the skimmers? What does equivalent result mean?

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I mean.. durrr. LOL I know that. But what would happen to the skimmers? What does equivalent result mean?

They would explode.

I guess I dont understand why that statement was necessary. If it explodes, it does so. If it doesnt then it doesnt. Im confused why they felt the need to add that in there. Although flyrants SHOULD explode LOL that would be funny,

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I guess I dont understand why that statement was necessary. If it explodes, it does so. If it doesnt then it doesnt. Im confused why they felt the need to add that in there. Although flyrants SHOULD explode LOL that would be funny,

Crash and Burn is a different rule that's unique to flyers. They probably thought it would be clearer if they specified that first, and then mentioned the normal explodes rule that all vehicles have as an equivalent.
Yeah, the fact that non-vehicle models with the FLY rule don't explode is disappointing.