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 SHUPPET wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t look at tournament lists often but when I do they all make me scratch my head. None of them bear much resemblance to the back grounds I know. And the way they are played is horrendous also. In the times of dark reapers and winged tyrants I saw a battle report and it was so crazy the way they played. No idea why those involved even bothered playing 40k when the story mattered so little.

Perfect man! Give me some current examples!

Like I said, I don’t follow the current meta and all that rubbish. The competetive scene makes me sad inside. After seeing that tyranids vs eldar horror show of a game that everyone thought was great I haven’t ever dared look again. Saw some one in a shop using the many custode captains on bikes thing and it was pretty bad too. The fact that match play has to have rules to enforce basic courtesy in list building is an indictment of the whole thing. It’s not a sport, it’s a game. In the words of the Joker, “why so serious?”

Before anyone chimes in e sports aren’t sports either. They just aren’t.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hollow wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t look at tournament lists often but when I do they all make me scratch my head. None of them bear much resemblance to the back grounds I know. And the way they are played is horrendous also. In the times of dark reapers and winged tyrants I saw a battle report and it was so crazy the way they played. No idea why those involved even bothered playing 40k when the story mattered so little.

This is something that I have always wondered. If you are a super-competitive person and sacrifice virgins to the Gods of balance, surely Warhammer isn't the game for you? Min-Maxing, Spam etc are all just ways to try and exploit game mechanics. I like to play the armies as you would imagine them working *IRL. It's why I don't really like seeing 'big baddies' in smaller games. People who play 1000 point games and bring super-heavies.... no thanks.

Exactly. It just isn’t balanced and sharp edged competitive fun. If you like that their are options out there rather than trying to force it to be something it’s not.

Andykp wrote:


Exactly. It just isn’t balanced and sharp edged competitive fun. If you like that their are options out there rather than trying to force it to be something it’s not.

Yeah. But winning actually balanced, made for competitive games/sports/anything is hard. Go and try win the 2019 U.S. Chess Championship (though if you do, you'll get nearly a quarter million USD, which isn't bad).

Googling up the latest 40K game designer snafu, taking it to a tournament and than basking in your mad "skillz" is just a lot easier

@Sunny Side Up

Secondly; The Legions might have been the backbone but the armies even at that time (horus Heresy) had normal humans and it is quite likely that some of them atleast fled also into the eye of terror and we all know that time there is a wierd concept at best, so survivors are probably not as uncommon as one would expect.

I mean i stated this and in a way those would be senior no?

Not Online!!! wrote:
@Sunny Side Up

Secondly; The Legions might have been the backbone but the armies even at that time (horus Heresy) had normal humans and it is quite likely that some of them atleast fled also into the eye of terror and we all know that time there is a wierd concept at best, so survivors are probably not as uncommon as one would expect.

I mean i stated this and in a way those would be senior no?

Sure. It's a remote theoretical possibility. Just super unlikely (even if mortals fled into the Eye of Terror, that's not a welcoming place for mere humans, less so if you want 40-80 of them to come back out 10,000 years later for basically every skirmish ever. Not to mention those wouldn't be cultists, but traitor guardsman from the Heresy, if they were formal soldiers back in that day.

Either way, certainly a lot less likely and a lot more unfluffy than Ahriman using a horde of Nurgle Daemons to further his agenda (which seems like something he'd do a lot more often than siding with that Thousand Sons Legion who consider him enemy No. 1, probably even ahead of Leman Russ himself) or Shield Captains and Blood Angel Captains in alliance on a battle field or random Tzeentch and Nurgle Daemons being rallied by a bullying Daemon Prince, which is basically Tuesday in the Warp, even if they fight to the death on Wednesdays, or some of the other examples listed.

True that, still a possibility, problem is the whole cultist mean alot of differing things and people. (ranging from paramilitaries to traitor guardsmen to denizens of the warp, to cannonfodder armies, to realspace cults , to systems that have fallen to chaos and form mini states, etc.)


As for the daemon thing, i never brought that up because let's be honest, if there is a way into realspace , they won't care and go together. HOWEVER MAGNUS MORTARION tag teams should not happen.
Same with Ahzek and Magnus combinations.

Andykp wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t look at tournament lists often but when I do they all make me scratch my head. None of them bear much resemblance to the back grounds I know. And the way they are played is horrendous also. In the times of dark reapers and winged tyrants I saw a battle report and it was so crazy the way they played. No idea why those involved even bothered playing 40k when the story mattered so little.

Perfect man! Give me some current examples!

Like I said, I don’t follow the current meta and all that rubbish. The competetive scene makes me sad inside. After seeing that tyranids vs eldar horror show of a game that everyone thought was great I haven’t ever dared look again. Saw some one in a shop using the many custode captains on bikes thing and it was pretty bad too. The fact that match play has to have rules to enforce basic courtesy in list building is an indictment of the whole thing. It’s not a sport, it’s a game. In the words of the Joker, “why so serious?”

Before anyone chimes in e sports aren’t sports either. They just aren’t.

Well, you sir seem to be a bit of a toxic operator. I've seen you get on this soapbox in multiple threads now. If you don't like competitive then don't play competitively, it's not that hard. They certainly don't care if you play casually. People enjoy competition and love playing against someone else bringing their strongest possible tactics, with beautiful models. It's not the courtesy of competitive players you need to worry about, almost everyone leaves tournaments having had the time of their lives with new friends and contacts as a reresult. I never see this negative nancy behavior from people who enjoy the game dictating HOW to enjoy it, but there's never any shortage of casual salty sailors sitting at others home crying that are having fun in a way that doesn't suit them.

Magnus & Mortarion tag-team is not an issue. Especially if you go the "it can mean different things to different people route". If Cultists can be anything "low quality chaff", those two can equally be just two very powerful DP or whatever, though I don't see why two traitor-primarch wouldn't team up if it furthers their purpose to do so.

Same benchmarks for everyone.

 Elbows wrote:
Every Grey Knight army?

A GK army is very fluffy if you field GKSS supported by AM.
Successful at the battle field? Eventually not.

2 Company commanders and 3 Squads of Guard. Fluffily 1 Platoon Commander commands 3 squads of guard, a CC is in charge of 3 Platoons worth of guys. But on the table, this is almost never the case. Sure it could happen that an IG force ends up this way from casualties, but not every. single. time.

The whole game command structure of IG compared to the fluff really doesn't mesh well at all, but that's a discussion for elsewhere.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
No.

"Veterans of the Long War" previously always was the distinction between Chaos Space Marines that date, through warp-shenanigans and simple age, all the way back to the Heresy, and those that turned Chaos in the meantime. E.g. Abaddon, Ahriman, etc.. were Veterans of the Long War, while Huron Blackheart or Zhufor the Impaler were not (being traitor Astral Claws / Storm Lords).

Wrong, Huron had VOTLW, and since its a 10k long war, someone fighting in it for 1000+ would most definitely be a Veteran.

The fluff is so malleable that you can justify anything.

My CuLTiSTs WErE sTuCk In THe warP FoR 10000 yEarS So ThEYre VOTLW LoLOlolOl

 Marmatag wrote:
The fluff is so malleable that you can justify anything.

My CuLTiSTs WErE sTuCk In THe warP FoR 10000 yEarS So ThEYre VOTLW LoLOlolOl

Meanwhile, a necron warrior near some pox walkers is killed by a boon of mutation an resurrects as a necron, a chaos spawn and a pox walker.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The fluff is so malleable that you can justify anything.

My CuLTiSTs WErE sTuCk In THe warP FoR 10000 yEarS So ThEYre VOTLW LoLOlolOl

Meanwhile, a necron warrior near some pox walkers is killed by a boon of mutation an resurrects as a necron, a chaos spawn and a pox walker.

Forge the narrative!

 Marmatag wrote:
The fluff is so malleable that you can justify anything.

My CuLTiSTs WErE sTuCk In THe warP FoR 10000 yEarS So ThEYre VOTLW LoLOlolOl

I still can't get over non Astartes having Astartes keyword...

Or Craftworld Outcasts having the <Craftworld> keyword.

Ynnari and Black heart Cabal

Yes Vect likes to be in the know but sending 6-11 disposable numps rarely results in much intel

 Marmatag wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The fluff is so malleable that you can justify anything.

My CuLTiSTs WErE sTuCk In THe warP FoR 10000 yEarS So ThEYre VOTLW LoLOlolOl

Meanwhile, a necron warrior near some pox walkers is killed by a boon of mutation an resurrects as a necron, a chaos spawn and a pox walker.

Forge the narrative!

This phrase still triggers me

Bharring wrote:
Or Craftworld Outcasts having the <Craftworld> keyword.

Ugh...so true.

Andykp wrote:
I don’t look at tournament lists often but when I do they all make me scratch my head. None of them bear much resemblance to the back grounds I know. And the way they are played is horrendous also. In the times of dark reapers and winged tyrants I saw a battle report and it was so crazy the way they played. No idea why those involved even bothered playing 40k when the story mattered so little.

Is it that crazy to you that some people like to play an inherently competitive game with the intent to win? If I just wanted to experience stories I would play D&D. I play 40k to win. I don't cheat or have bad sportsmanship, but when I build my list, I take the most powerful list I can come up with. If you just want to play fluff builds and play D&D space war in the year 40k, that's fine. However, if that's all you want to do, I wonder why you even bother to click on posts about the meta.

Because it was a topic I had a comment to make about. Which lead to others. I think that’s the point of the forum.

 Hollow wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t look at tournament lists often but when I do they all make me scratch my head. None of them bear much resemblance to the back grounds I know. And the way they are played is horrendous also. In the times of dark reapers and winged tyrants I saw a battle report and it was so crazy the way they played. No idea why those involved even bothered playing 40k when the story mattered so little.

This is something that I have always wondered. If you are a super-competitive person and sacrifice virgins to the Gods of balance, surely Warhammer isn't the game for you? Min-Maxing, Spam etc are all just ways to try and exploit game mechanics. I like to play the armies as you would imagine them working *IRL. It's why I don't really like seeing 'big baddies' in smaller games. People who play 1000 point games and bring super-heavies.... no thanks.

No offence but you made me vomit in my mouth a little bit. There are soooooo much better games if you wanted to push the narrative like previously stated D&D and such, I'm sure there are plenty of rpg books out there that use army scale mechanics as well.

In 40k you put plastic non-moving miniatures on a wood table. My suspension of disbelief is so great already I take zero issue with people creating castles/bubbles, circling characters with units, whatever shenanigans they want to use. Bring whatever units and use whatever tactics you want to use as long it's within the rules.

I couldn't disagree more about the competitive aspect. The only games that are 'balanced' are ones with equal and equivalent or near that of resources like chess. For a lot of people, this style of game is quite boring as it becomes 'mathematically solved' so to speak. Introducing a shifting meta, and variations help shroud the "solution' of strategy games and as such keep them exciting. No one is asking for a perfectly balanced game for competition; that's not even really a good metric at all tbh. What you should look at is a diversity of builds. As long as multiple builds exist so it's not a mono build or strict rock-paper-scissors game you have a great medium for a competitive game.