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Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The "lore" from 1st edition also says that the Emperor still communicates with his followers and that Astropaths, Navigatgors and half-Eldar can be Space Marines; things have changed since then.

Back to the point; what are you arguing against here? No-one's saying the Emperor didn't want to "save" humanity - they're saying that his definition of "save" is textbook tyranny - humanity can only be saved his way, anything else is doomed to failure because he says so; any competition is crushed before it can be held up as a counterexample. There were a couple of moustachioed gentlemen in the 1920s and 30s who thought the same way. The thing that gives 40k its texture is that, distasteful as it my be, the Emperor appears to be right.

And because Games Workshop says so. Do you have proof any other way or faction would have worked?


EDIT: Put it this way, the Interex was undone when Erebus stole a Chaos artifact from their museum. If those factions could not hold off the Imperium, then they are not suitable for replacements.

Spoken like a true tyrant. Might makes right, yes?

It basically proves the Imperium was the only way to fight off Chaos.


If the Interex can't even stop Erebus from undoing them when he stole a Chaos artifact, then why should we think they could possibly replace the Imperium?

And I already said that Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (Yes, I know 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated) confirm the Emperor wants to save humanity (though it looks like no one was denying that, so I'll drop it). And Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind confirm it, for people who want recent lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Do you have proof any other way or faction would have worked?

You mean besides every single previously peaceful society, human or otherwise, that Big E rolled up on, conquered and enslaved?

He conquered and rolled up on them, nothing more.


And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?

Onething123456 wrote:


It basically proves the Imperium was the only way to fight off Chaos.

Not even close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?

Because plot armor doesnt give a feth about logic. The Imperium needed to win for the fiction to function and models to be sold, so it won. That says absolutely nothing about it being "right" or "justified".

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


It basically proves the Imperium was the only way to fight off Chaos.

Not even close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?

Because plot armor doesnt give a feth about logic. The Imperium needed to win for the fiction to function and models to be sold, so it won. That says absolutely nothing about it being "right" or "justified".

The Imperium won because they are so much stronger than those other factions.

Its not possible any of those factions, including the Interex, could have handled what the Imperium did.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


It basically proves the Imperium was the only way to fight off Chaos.

Not even close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

And that's my point, if those factions can't even handle a small fleet of the Imperium, then why should we think they can handle the 41st millennium?

Because plot armor doesnt give a feth about logic. The Imperium needed to win for the fiction to function and models to be sold, so it won. That says absolutely nothing about it being "right" or "justified".

The Imperium won because they are so much stronger than those other factions.

Its not possible any of those factions, including the Interex, could have handled what the Imperium did.

Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

This is the 40k universe, where basically everything is up to whatever author is writing it at the time. So much of this is fluff made up literally decades after the original stuff was written down (often with no thought given to, or any intent of ever getting into, the details of how it got there), by different authors with different views of the 40k universe. Most of the 40k universe falls apart and stops making sense at the briefest of contemplation

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.

When did xenos intervene?

And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.

When did xenos intervene?

And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.

You're not right.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.

When did xenos intervene?

And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.

You're not right.

So prove it.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Yeah, but isn't the whole point of the 40k setting to say 'what if a totalitarian, authoritarian tyrant REALLY WAS the only way to save mankind?'. I mean, that's where loads of the horror of the setting comes from - we know that the Imperium (even the one of 30k) would be a horrible place to live, but we also know what would happen without it, and that it would be even more horrible. So we end up with a universe of grey areas with lots of conflict, which is perfect for a war-game.

Ialways thought this explanation to be weak and not well thought out. The Emperor wanted to defeat the god of war and slaughter by massacring everybody who sood in his way and conquering millions of worlds. He wanted to trick the god o of deceit. He wanted to terrorise fear into submission and smoehow that was supposed to be such a humble plan that pride itself would vanish. Of course, you don't kill war with war, you kill it with kindness and gentleness. You don't kill fear (especially fear of death and disease) by virus bombing planets full of people or threatening them to do so. You don't stop lying by lying yourself and building your entire ideology on deceit. You don't defeat extremism by building an extremist society and you certainly don't defeat pride and arrogance by thinking that you are the savior of an entire race. Violence, fear, deceit and vanity are the very essence of the gods of chaos. The Emperor's entire plan rests upon them. The Gods of Chaos never had a better enemy. One that would fuel them to ludicrous height and whose solution to the inferno would be to build an even bigger fire. The Emperor is a madman, but humanity saw in him its greatest genius and leader because that's the joke, humans are ridiculously stupid and easily swayed toward their most brutal instincts. That's the dystopian part, if a man presented himself with a plan as ridiculous as the Emperor's people would follow him. Humans love the concept of "the war that will end all wars". Sadly, we did, many times, and we will keep doing it for centuries to come in my opinion. The 40K univers is simply a grotesque caricature of that reality in my opinion.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.

When did xenos intervene?

And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.

The Eldar throwing in their lot with the Imperium has been crucial during Black Crusades and in frustrating the designs and plans of the forces of Chaos in many instances. We don't know what those other early factions could or could not handle (and none of the authors ever intended to ponder that) or what would have developed in the subsequent ten thousand years of history, most of which would be radically different without the Imperium and half its armies going over to the forces of Chaos at the start.

Onething123456 wrote:


When did xenos intervene?

Literally the entire Terran Crusade for starters. The entire Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium setting is predicated on Eldar intervention in the face of Abaddon's victory.

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


When did xenos intervene?

Literally the entire Terran Crusade for starters. The entire Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium setting is predicated on Eldar intervention in the face of Abaddon's victory.

Necrons also helped quite a bit in defeating the forces of Chaos several times. Their technology is uniquely designed to defeat the forces of the Warp.

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


When did xenos intervene?

Literally the entire Terran Crusade for starters. The entire Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium setting is predicated on Eldar intervention in the face of Abaddon's victory.

The Imperium and Eldar can destroy each other.

And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.

The Necrons have reality warping technology. And the C'tan can create black holes and destroy solar systems as shown in the 8th Edition Necron Codex on page 9. Page 9 in the 8th Edition Necron Codex. And they are not a human faction.

Onething123456 wrote:


The Imperium and Eldar can destroy each other.

You asked:

Onething123456 wrote:

When did xenos intervene?

I answered. The hostility between the two factions is irrelevant to that fact.

Onething123456 wrote:
And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.

You don't see how the Imperium not being able to handle Chaos is proof of how you're wrong about the Imperium being able to handle Chaos?

Alrighty then.

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


The Imperium and Eldar can destroy each other.

You asked:

Onething123456 wrote:

When did xenos intervene?

I answered. The hostility between the two factions is irrelevant to that fact.

Onething123456 wrote:
And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.

You don't see how the Imperium not being able to handle Chaos is proof of how you're wrong about the Imperium being able to handle Chaos?

Alrighty then.

I said other factions cannot handle Chaos since they cannot handle the Imperium

Onething123456 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lots of the stuff happening in the 41st millenium that those other factions supposedly wouldn't have been able to withstand wouldn't have ever come to pass without the Imperium and the Emperor in the first place. Also, the Imperium has basically been a giant barely held together boiling gak show, crumbling under its own weight and ignorance, for ten thousand years of constant strife. That's been the fundamental underpinning of the setting for every single edition. Not exactly a success story.

Case in point: without intervention from Xenos factions of all stripes, Chaos would have stomped the Imperium millenia ago.

When did xenos intervene?

And you have no proof any of those factions could have handled it. If they can't handle the Imperium, then I do not think they would handle the 41st millennium. Tell me I am not right.

You're not right.

So prove it.

Why? You never do, and any attempt at an actual discussion with you seems to be an exercise in futility, so I thought I'd take a leaf out of your book instead.

So to bring this "back on track" for whatever that is worth:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.

The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway. [

It looks like you literally answered your own question immediately after someone replied. Don't ask asinine questions if you already know the answer and just want to argue/recite quotes like some sort of MLA citation bot.

Are we done here?

 Jpogfreak886 wrote:
So to bring this "back on track" for whatever that is worth:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Because the Emperor only really cares about results, which in the GC, was conquering territory at a rapid rate. So while he didn't openly approve of Angron's excesses, since Angron kept the victories rolling in he would only give Angron effective lip-service with regards to punishing/reprimanding him. Also, knowing Angron's mental condition, the Emps was pretty hands off and only kept him around as a "fire and forget" Primarch missile anyways.

The Emperor did hate what Angron and Kurze did, but he let it slide (though he did chastise them) since he needed to finish the Crusade and work on the Wbway. [

It looks like you literally answered your own question immediately after someone replied. Don't ask asinine questions if you already know the answer and just want to argue/recite quotes like some sort of MLA citation bot.

Are we done here?

Alright, it came around to me.

We don't know what would have happened without the Emperor. Perhaps Chaos would have eaten the galaxy, perhaps the Eldar would have re-established their empire, perhaps the varying xeno species and human realms would have come together and formed a Star Trek style federation.

 Crimson wrote:
We don't know what would have happened without the Emperor. Perhaps Chaos would have eaten the galaxy, perhaps the Eldar would have re-established their empire, perhaps the varying xeno species and human realms would have come together and formed a Star Trek style federation.

Kind of like how they formed a Star Trek style Federation in the DAOT, and then most of the aliens turned on them in the Age of Strife.


Its safe to say humanity would have died without the Emperor, as humanity came close to extinction in the Age of Strife.

DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.

 Crimson wrote:
DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.

And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.

And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.

Humans turned against humans at the same time. Following your logic that means all humans should be exterminated too since they pose a threat to humans.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.

And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.

Actually it's a supposition. It's just as likely humans turned on them, or they got tired of taking collateral damage in human conflicts.

But its a much better narrative for the Emperor's and the Imperium's purposes if the filthy xenos were the wrongdoers and humanity the victims.

You're mistaking 'fact' for 'point of view' again.

Voss wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.

And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.

Actually it's a supposition. It's just as likely humans turned on them, or they got tired of taking collateral damage in human conflicts.

But its a much better narrative for the Emperor's and the Imperium's purposes if the filthy xenos were the wrongdoers and humanity the victims.

You're mistaking 'fact' for 'point of view' again.

It was noted that humanity was at peace with aliens in the DAOT, and that the aliens turned on them, or at least hostile ones swooped in.


Its not a supposition, unless you can prove that.

It is a fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
DAOT human civilisation lasted for several millennia. So it seemed to work. Sure it collapsed eventually, but that can happen to Imperium too.

And during the Age of Strife, many aliens turned on humans. This a fact. Not all, but enough.

Humans turned against humans at the same time. Following your logic that means all humans should be exterminated too since they pose a threat to humans.

In the Emperor's mind, the Age of Strife proves most if not all aliens are evil and should be destroyed. He is not going to destroy all humans for being hostile to each other because he wants humanity to psychically evolve and become the dominant species of the cosmos. He is a human supremacist. Even if he tolerated aliens, he would have humans on top.

And now we're back to "a little bit of genocide is ok, as long as the right people are getting exterminated".

Sterling191 wrote:
And now we're back to "a little bit of genocide is ok, as long as the right people are getting exterminated".

I said the Emperor thinks it is alright to destroy most or all aliens because of the Age of Strife and the many hostile species that enslaved humanity during the Age of Strife.

Onething123456 wrote:

I said the Emperor thinks it is alright to destroy most or all aliens because of the Age of Strife and the many hostile species that enslaved humanity during the Age of Strife.

While simultaneously ignoring and justifying the slaughter of countless non-compliant human populations because "hey, you gotta break some eggs to make a psychically evolved omelette".

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

I said the Emperor thinks it is alright to destroy most or all aliens because of the Age of Strife and the many hostile species that enslaved humanity during the Age of Strife.

While simultaneously ignoring and justifying the slaughter of countless non-compliant human populations because "hey, you gotta break some eggs to make a psychically evolved omelette".

I would not say there were "countless" non-complaint humans slaughtered, as it would make more sense to just conquer them (and that is mostly what the Emperor did). Besides, most of that comes from the Forgeworld books.

regarding the Emperor's intent, that is utterly IRRELEVANT. History lesson time guys, When Stalin came to power, Communist Russia was, economicly speaking, a basket case. Russia was NOT a modern nation and it's infanmstructure was essentially incapable of building as modern war machine, Stalin belived that in 10-20 years the west would invade and try to crush the Communist government (BTW he was right, Hitler invaded in 1941) so Stalin belived he needed to strengthen the USSR and do it fast, too fast to worry about anything like human rights etc. This is the reason for his 5 year plans his purges etc. You could make an arguement that a LOT of what he did was nesscary... it's irrelevant the man is remembered as one of the great monsters of the 20th century.