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Here you go Dakka, my two cents on competitive orks with the new book. After the list, I will list all of my concerns for the list, followed by the general strategy.


(After I typed the whole thing, I lost connection to Dakka, and lost it all... so please excuse the lack of humour that is warranted in a list like this)

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+++ Da Bois (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [111 PL, 2000pts] +++

++ Brigade (all the CP) (Orks) ++

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

+ HQ +

Big Mek (Index): Choppa, Kustom Force Field

Warboss: Attack Squig, Follow me Ladz!, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord

Weirdboy: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Scorched Gitbonez, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Boyz: 'Ard Boyz (2 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz: 'Ard Boyz (2 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz: 'Ard Boyz (2 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz: 'Ard Boyz (2 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz: 'Ard Boyz (2 CP), 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 19x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin: 20x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Meganobz
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

Nob with Waaagh! Banner: Kustom Shoota

Painboy: Power Klaw

+ Fast Attack +

Stormboyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Stormboy

Stormboyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Stormboy

Stormboyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 4x Stormboy

+ Heavy Support +

Mek Gunz
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun

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Concerns:
that boys are now 7ppm...







Real Concerns:
- 11 CP spent before the game leaves me with only 5 to spend during the game (+1 from follow me ladz) the only stratagems I plan on using are 1-2 turns of grot shield and the green tide strat. are there any important stratagems that outweigh doubling the durability of 150 boys? 10CP feels steep. Am I missing anything obvious?
- only 24 gretchin? seems like enough for grot shielding for at least a turn, unless theres a better place to cut points, I cant really find one at the moment.
- are min units of storm boyz better than deffkoptas? they are just for deep strinking on objectives at the end of turn in this list, so the boyz can get stuck in wiv no mukin about.
- I had a few more, but its 3am here... I forgot
- I think because of the fundamental stratagey of the green tide, evil sunz is the best kultur for the list, as the most value is gotten from every unit here. I am not 100% sold though, what are peoples thoughts here?
- Smash gun vs tractor cannon? Are 9 of the former better than 6 of the latter? I think so? however, I'm not sold. (mathhammer says you have similar odds of wounding most things, and have the same damage) so, it boils down to durability vs reliability here, as smasha gunz are ~2/3 the cost

The plan:
- Get stuck in proper. I think most people get how a green tide works.
- the painboy sticks with the weirdboy to repair perils damage
- the weirdboy jumps a unit of boys T1 to clear screens, then can DaJump the unit of meganobz (protected by grot shield on T1) to hit something juicy
- by the time this has happened, pretty much all the boys should be close enough to not need jumpin, but it is versatile in the late game (after turn 3ish)

Peoples comments are appreciated, I would like peoples thoughts on these ideas, as I'm new to orks as of this book and I was sold on the idea of a green tide, it just seems awesome. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Hey, with only 3 meganobz, they could not impact any juicy targets, but youre on the right path (da warpath, dat iz)

Maybe drop some Mek gunz (seriously, that many?). And take more meganobz.

They actually were a last minute addition to replace a painboy, 6 gretchin and fill the leftover points. (they aren't meant to kill a knight, but maybe open up a russ, or finish off something dented by the mek gunz the turn prior)

Is there a better unit that I could add for the same cost?


Also, I think that the redundancy in the mek gunz is important, and they are dirt cheap ML equivalents, and make up for one of the biggest weakness of a Green tide, that being decent firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should say, how do ~3 meganobz stack up vs ~4 mek gunz, and do you think more meganobz would be more useful to a list like this?

I'm thinking that a bigger unit of meganobz (armed with killsaws) could do well against knights etc. Mek gunz dont actually gain any benefit for being Evil sunz, but meganobz could.

I am aware of the restrictions on the effect of cultures, I am just not sold on the efficiency of more meganobz over mek gunz

I suppose, 6 makes them a much more tempting target for the opponent and increases the efficiency of grot shield.

Ill have a tweak and see what I come up with.

What do you think about the whole CP situation? That is the thing that bothers me the most.

I think this is a pretty strong list, bro. Sunz ir Goffs would be good. Main weakness in a competitive setting is it's speed and AP. This is of course is a concern for da Boyz regardless. Do you think that you would do better adding some bigchoppas to the StormBoyz and losing 5 Grots?

Alright, I have tweaked and can fit 3 more meganobz w/ PK's if I cut 3 mek gunz and 4 gretchin.


What is the argument for saws over PK's? The extra 8ppm seems hard to justify. Is it worth it? (I would need to find another 48 points)

Also, I agree that the gunz are superior (point effeciency) to the meganobz.

Hitting on 4s with klaws are a bummer that's why saws, but I still think smasha and traktors are superior

 doktor_g wrote:
I think this is a pretty strong list, bro. Sunz ir Goffs would be good. Main weakness in a competitive setting is it's speed and AP. This is of course is a concern for da Boyz regardless. Do you think that you would do better adding some bigchoppas to the StormBoyz and losing 5 Grots?

I think that the idea is to drown things under stupid amounts of attacks, and worry less about the quality of attacks overall. (the AP comes from the mek gunz and meganobs)


I think that for most targets, forcing a fall back move if a target isn't completely decimated is good enough?


I'm not sure how badly the lack of CP for mob-up stratagem use is going to hurt me? How essential do people regard this to be to maintain the bonus attacks for units of boys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doktor_g wrote:
Also, I agree that the gunz are superior (point effeciency) to the meganobz.

Hitting on 4s with klaws are a bummer that's why saws, but I still think smasha and traktors are superior

Saws also suffer -1 to hit, so its 8ppm for an extra attack, flat damage 2 (vs D3), and -4 Ap (vs -3)

I meant weakness of your list was vulnerability to your opponent's AP weapons. You have plenty of AP yourself. I didn't know that saws also got -1 to hit. I'm not sure it's worth 8ppm in that case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never take (took) them on my footy MANz or MANz missiles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure Mob up is needed in lists of 30 Boyz each. Never ending green tide would be superior in that case.

That's what I was thinking regarding the saws, after you kit out the unit w/ saws, you could have bought another 2ish meganobz, that's the extra attacks right there!

What do you think of the updated list? (edited original post)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still 2000 on the dot

I always use killsaws in small medium units of meganobz. The +1A and -1AP are huge if the unit doesn't have many bodies. A unit of 8-10 dudes is perfect with the cheapest loadout.

6 dudes are also ok with PKs if there are no points available. When you have lots of meganobz that +8 points per model means you could field 1-2 more bodies if you gave PKs to all of them.

 Blackie wrote:
I always use killsaws in small medium units of meganobz. The +1A and -1AP are huge if the unit doesn't have many bodies. A unit of 8-10 dudes is perfect with the cheapest loadout.

6 dudes are also ok with PKs if there are no points available. When you have lots of meganobz that +8 points per model means you could field 1-2 more bodies if you gave PKs to all of them.

That was my thought process exactly, I cant see anything that is less efficient than 48 extra point for saws would be. (in this case, we are talking the cost of ~1.3 meganobz so I would have to cut the unit to 4)


In the above example, are 4 with saws better than 6 with PK's?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^^^ This is a legitimate question, as I haven't fielded them before or had to face them


the optimisation side of me is having a hard time justifying the damage vs durability trade-off

Not sold on those 'ard boys. 5+ is fine but you are still getting creamed by lots of shooting. It's not doubling up survivability. Bigger survivability boost would be teleporting as that cuts down 1-2 turns of shooting from enemy.

 iStompya wrote:
Alright, I have tweaked and can fit 3 more meganobz w/ PK's if I cut 3 mek gunz and 4 gretchin.


What is the argument for saws over PK's? The extra 8ppm seems hard to justify. Is it worth it? (I would need to find another 48 points)

+1 attack is big, but even bigger is the fixed damage - against large targets D3 and 2 damage average out to be the same, but against smaller targets like 2w infantry not having 1 in 3 attacks wasted by rolling a 1 is huge. Also, in boyz mobs you can easily mob up with two kill saw nobs and get 12 saw attacks (3 + greentide + warpath + double saw), that's more attacks at higher strength and same accuracy compared to a squad of hammernators (+ shooting and fighting from 38 boyz).

It does double their survivability.. (they just didn't start with much to begin with)

When I'm thinking about the first turn, I'm prepared to loose up to approx. 60 boys and I think that there'll still be a chance to win?

against some of the best anti infantry shooting a 5+/5++/6+++ gives you a resonable chance of saving a significant number of boys.

For example against 15 cadian mortars you are taking on average ~30-31 hits, lets say 16 wounds. that takes you from saving 2.5 boys to 5 on average before the 6+++

Correct me if I'm wrong, I have just pulled an all nighter, but thats twice as durable?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
^^^

The above mathhammer is very roundabout


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insularum wrote:

+1 attack is big, but even bigger is the fixed damage - against large targets D3 and 2 damage average out to be the same, but against smaller targets like 2w infantry not having 1 in 3 attacks wasted by rolling a 1 is huge. Also, in boyz mobs you can easily mob up with two kill saw nobs and get 12 saw attacks (3 + greentide + warpath + double saw), that's more attacks at higher strength and same accuracy compared to a squad of hammernators (+ shooting and fighting from 38 boyz).

Okay, how does that compare to the +1 save across all the boys.

I get the flat damage benefits, but these guys are for hitting things above rhino chassis and below knights in toughness. By taking the saws, you are sacrificing a lot in the way of cost effectiveness. for example, putting them in mobs of boys costs me 2 boys per saw? Is that more valuable than the extra durability and weight of attacks you get with extra lads?

The plan is to drown heavy infantry in boys, so the fixed damage is less useful in this circumstance if they are primarily going after T7/8 10-12 Wound models, as I am trying to maximise the efficiency of every single point.

If you could elaborate on the mob up vs 'ard boys plan, that would be great. (I am functioning on the assumption that the boys retain the buff after the green tide stratagem)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Not sold on those 'ard boys. 5+ is fine but you are still getting creamed by lots of shooting. It's not doubling up survivability. Bigger survivability boost would be teleporting as that cuts down 1-2 turns of shooting from enemy.

You have to keep in mind, starting them on the table means that even going second, you "guarantee" a full strength unit to jump. also, more than half the list is boys, and you would easily be tabled before turn two if yo put them all in reserves. Not to mention that if you split them up, you limit the effectiveness of mob rule from nearby units.


You make a valid point though.

 iStompya wrote:
Okay, how does that compare to the +1 save across all the boys.

I get the flat damage benefits, but these guys are for hitting things above rhino chassis and below knights in toughness. By taking the saws, you are sacrificing a lot in the way of cost effectiveness. for example, putting them in mobs of boys costs me 2 boys per saw? Is that more valuable than the extra durability and weight of attacks you get with extra lads?

The plan is to drown heavy infantry in boys, so the fixed damage is less useful in this circumstance if they are primarily going after T7/8 10-12 Wound models, as I am trying to maximise the efficiency of every single point.

If you could elaborate on the mob up vs 'ard boys plan, that would be great. (I am functioning on the assumption that the boys retain the buff after the green tide stratagem)

To elaborate - a unit is going to perform da jump on turn 1, and rinse/repeat until either the wierdboy perils to death or you have advanced across the board. Is 2cp on ard boyz worth it on the first wave? They will be shot to death and unstoppable green tide wont be played until a later wave. Accepting that they are disposable, why not send in 40 boyz - they can multicharge along a wider front, put more shoota shots into the back field units, and critically, produce the best nobz you have available (boyz nob with 2 killsaws - 30 points/5 attacks; meganob with PK - 35 points/3 attacks). If by some miracle the mob isn't wiped, you get a good candidate for extra stikkbombs.

I think the comparison is close, I think it will come down to being slightly more durable vs reasonably more killy
.

As it stands, the plan is one lot of boys jumpin turn 1, And the unit of meganobz the following turn
.

The weirdboy would also have reasonable longevity due do the extra d3 wounds each turn from the painboy. Maybe putting the relic claw on the warboss to reduce the chance of perils with the gitbonez?

Isn't this list illegal because you have five units of boys in one Detachment? I thought there was a cap of three per.

Its a Brigade. It has a requirement of six

DISCO LEMONADE wrote:
Isn't this list illegal because you have five units of boys in one Detachment? I thought there was a cap of three per.

You're thinking of the three of any datasheet per army rule. Doesn't apply to troops or transports.

Also, can you even use the ard boyz strat more than once before the game? I didn't think you could apply the same stratagem more than once at a time like that, but I'm probably wrong.

 cole1114 wrote:

DISCO LEMONADE wrote:
Isn't this list illegal because you have five units of boys in one Detachment? I thought there was a cap of three per.

You're thinking of the three of any datasheet per army rule. Doesn't apply to troops or transports.

Also, can you even use the ard boyz strat more than once before the game? I didn't think you could apply the same stratagem more than once at a time like that, but I'm probably wrong.

My understanding is that you cant use the same stratagem more than once per turn, this doesn't apply during deployment because its not currently a game turn. Also note the mob up stratagem implies that it is possible to have more than one unit of 'ard boyz, so its not like this is outside of the intended design of the book.

 iStompya wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:

DISCO LEMONADE wrote:
Isn't this list illegal because you have five units of boys in one Detachment? I thought there was a cap of three per.

You're thinking of the three of any datasheet per army rule. Doesn't apply to troops or transports.

Also, can you even use the ard boyz strat more than once before the game? I didn't think you could apply the same stratagem more than once at a time like that, but I'm probably wrong.

My understanding is that you cant use the same stratagem more than once per turn, this doesn't apply during deployment because its not currently a game turn. Also note the mob up stratagem implies that it is possible to have more than one unit of 'ard boyz, so its not like this is outside of the intended design of the book.

Huh, it's right there in the rule that anything out of a phase is good to go multiple times. Good to know for the future. As for ard boyz, some stolen mathhammer from elsewhere is that they're gonna survive 25% more AP0 shots and 20% more AP1 shots. Combine that with da jump or really any other kind of deep strike and you're gonna be getting crazy high charge success chances with evil sunz. Good with those boyz... but those mek gunz aren't really enough against good armor. Realistically, sadly, nothing orks have is good enough in a competitive setting against stuff like knights. Except maybe tankbusters. Maybe.

Also, you're gonna have trouble getting all those boyz into charge range because you can only do a da jump per turn and advancing can only take you so far even with a boost. So while that 5+ isn't bad, any army with decent anti-horde weapons is gonna tear through them before they can get through.

The plan with the gunz isn't to kill a knight, its mostly for killing stuff like hellhounds and other light/medium things, but they can also soften up stuff.

Not to mention, they are one of the cheapest way to fill a brigade

 cole1114 wrote:
Huh, it's right there in the rule that anything out of a phase is good to go multiple times. Good to know for the future. As for ard boyz, some stolen mathhammer from elsewhere is that they're gonna survive 25% more AP0 shots and 20% more AP1 shots. Combine that with da jump or really any other kind of deep strike and you're gonna be getting crazy high charge success chances with evil sunz. Good with those boyz... but those mek gunz aren't really enough against good armor. Realistically, sadly, nothing orks have is good enough in a competitive setting against stuff like knights. Except maybe tankbusters. Maybe.

Well putting regular knight into half wounds isn't impossibility with bad moon lootas. 16 wounds with tank bustas. That's hefty dent and can be finished off with other stuff.

Also 18 deathskull kannons cost ~480 pts and will one shot knight on average dices(technically they would one shot castellan but presumably that has 4++ and will use RIS. You might want to fake it and fire first one at castellan. If he buys it and triggers RIS you still in average would kill regular 5++ knight with remaining 17(24 wounds to a dot) and he wasted 3CP...) and no big single target for knight player to take out. When he has to take out one by one units that cause ~1.59 wounds(but there's 18 of them) each it's not knight players dream situation!

Bike boss, fist of gork, killa klaw. That's basically 6 wounds for him to save at -3, 3 damage each, can attack twice and if dies can attack yet again. Good luck knight surviving that!

If you go second Ard boys with the prepared position strategem would give them a 4+ sv. Also what about taking traktor cannons instead of the smasha guns? traktor kannons autohit and if shooting flyers they crash and burn automatically when they are destroyed.

The boyz under the kff turn 1 don't need 'ard. Save 2 or 3 cp.

On the subject of mek gunz: 1 smash gun is better than 1 traktor kannon vs T6 and under but worse vs T7 and T8, Unless the target has no invulnerable save.

Point for point however, 3 smasha guns is about the same as 2 traktors.

Vs a knight: The 3 smash guns will put out 6 shots on average, hitting 3. 2 traktors auto hit twice
That's around 1.25 wounds. 2 traktors yield 1 wounds to knights on average.
Both have a 1/3 chance to be saved by the 5++, and deal d6 damage, so the smasha gun looks like the winner per point.

Vs a stormraven: 3 smash gun only average 2 hits vs hard to hit where the traktors auto hit 2 times.
The smash guns wound 1.166 times, traktors wound 1.333 times.
ap-4 makes short work of the sv3+, so the Smash guns deal around 4 damage average. Traktors get 1/3 of their wounds saved--averaging 4 damage on 2d6 taking highest--deals 3.5 damage BUT can cause explosion automatically.

Vs wave serpent: Smash guns hit 3 times, traktors hit 2 times
smash gets 1.75 wounds, traktor gets 1.667 wounds
smash ignores the 3+ but serpent shield reduces the damage by 1 per unsaved wound for 1.75 average damage reduction--4.375 damage but then fnp so 3.65 damage. Only 1.11 wounds don't get saved for traktor so 3.33 before fnp for 2.78 damage total.

Some of my math might be janky but the smash gun seems to outperform 2/3 of the time (2 or 3 shots on the d3)

That was my thinking with the smasha gunz, plus you get an extra 6 wounds that has to be killed to answer them.

Regarding the ard boys thing, I could probably pay for only 3 units, and have 2 under the KFF, its just later turns where it might be better than 4CP spent on other stratagems?


What do you think about the meganobz? I'm pretty torn on them tbh. I cant decide if I like them or not.

Meganobz are historically a gamble unit. They'll either blow something up that's worth double their points and be the MVP of your army or they'll fail their charge and get shot off the table before doing anything. As a point filler unit that you have them as right now I think they're fine, if you want more consistency I'd probably drop them and add another weirdboy and smasha gun or something.

I'd drop the ard boyz all together. Unless you have a crap ton of cp's they're not worth it imo. Only having 5 cp's to use during the game is going to get you into a lot of trouble.

Meganobz are kind of hit or miss. They hit hard vs vehicles and primaris marines, but with no invul they go down easy to multi damage weapons like meltas. They hit hard after coming into play via tellyport though:
rounding down, closest number of models to 311 points (naut price)

7 manz with saws deal 18 damage to a knight in cc but has no shooting for screens or retreating units that outpace them.

8 manz with klaws deal 13 damage to a knight, 0.7 damage with kustom shootas for 13.7 damage. Kustom shootas let you peel through screens a bit--5 GEQ or 2 MEQ.

1 gorkanaut deals 11.67 damage to a knight, +2ish more from shooting, and d3 mortals if using ram strat for average 15.67 damage. Again shooting can be used to peel screens; 6.5 GEQ or 4 MEQ (more if skorcha is in range).
goff gorkanaut deals 13.83 in cc instead.

10 smasha gun deal 11.67 to a knight but can do so starting turn 1 and at r48 can target basically anything on the board.

15 tankbustas +6 attack squigs deal 16.52 damage to a knight. If they live a turn use the extra stikkbombs strategem to obliterate a knight. Bad moons tankbustas with showin off are pretty deadly dealing 26.24 damage (squigs don't fire twice). Doesn't care about screens. Much more fragile, however.