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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Suppose I have a Battlewagon full of Grots (A Grotzwagen... just roll with it). Both the battlewagon and grots are blood axes.

The battlewagon has the open-topped ability :

"Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on the model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to it's passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy, and so on."

It also has blood-axe kultur :

"A unit with this kultur gains the benefit of cover, even while they are not entirely on or in a terrain feature, if the enemy model making the attack is at least 18" away. In addition, units with this kultur can shoot or charge (but not both) even if the Fell Back in the same turn."

But the grots do not get the kultur ability.

Can the battlewagon fall back during the movement phase, then the grots fire during the shooting phase, then the battlewagon charge during charge phase? I think that RAW they can, but want a second opinion. The battlewagon fell back, and therefor is under the restriction "can shoot or charge (but not both)". That restriction passes to the grots, so they can shoot or charge (but not both) -- they choose to shoot. Then the battlewagon (which didn't shoot) chooses to charge. Kosher?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/08 03:34:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The battlewagon can fall back, but still counts as falling back which would transfer to the models embarked.

The battlewagon would then get to fire even though it fell back, however it still fell back.

The grots would not get to fire as they count as falling back.

The blood axe rule allows you to do one of those things when falling back, which is not the same as saying the model can fallback and counts as not falling back for all rules purposes
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





United States

The grots have pistols, lets fight about it

I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





blaktoof wrote:
The battlewagon can fall back, but still counts as falling back which would transfer to the models embarked.
The battlewagon would then get to fire even though it fell back, however it still fell back.
The grots would not get to fire as they count as falling back.
The blood axe rule allows you to do one of those things when falling back, which is not the same as saying the model can fallback and counts as not falling back for all rules purposes


Does it though? The grots didn't fall back, but the open-topped transport conveyed any "restrictions or modifiers" to the grots. The transport isn't restricted from shooting or charging, just from shooting AND charging. Why are the grots passed a restriction different from the one applied to the wagon itself?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Coh Magnussen wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The battlewagon can fall back, but still counts as falling back which would transfer to the models embarked.
The battlewagon would then get to fire even though it fell back, however it still fell back.
The grots would not get to fire as they count as falling back.
The blood axe rule allows you to do one of those things when falling back, which is not the same as saying the model can fallback and counts as not falling back for all rules purposes


Does it though? The grots didn't fall back, but the open-topped transport conveyed any "restrictions or modifiers" to the grots. The transport isn't restricted from shooting or charging, just from shooting AND charging. Why are the grots passed a restriction different from the one applied to the wagon itself?


Blood axe bonus on wagon doesnt' transfer to guys inside. Wagon does have restriction(can't shoot after fallinb back) which gets transfered to grots. Wagon also has rule to override restriction under it but that is not transfered to passengers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/08 08:51:45


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think the grots won't be able t oshoot, as the battlewagon has the "may not shoot or charge" restriction applied to it, and then has a get out clause that it may shoot of charge (not both) even if it fell back, but the grots have no such bonus.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

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Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





don't grots not get kultur bonuses?
I'd say yes as it isn't the vehicle firing but a technically separate unit and if I remember correctly open topped vehicles only mention things the vehicle does or is affected by and shooting affecting the passengers but not anything the passengers do affecting the vehicle.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Grots cant shoot, because the wagon can only shoot or charge. This also applies to the grots, because the open topped rule says so. The wagons kultur rule doesnt apply for the grots, because they dont get any kultur rule.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I'll buy that. The 'restriction' isn't "can shoot or charge but not both", it's "can't shoot or charge" and the wagon has an ability (kultur) to ignore part of that restriction, but the grots don't. That should mean that blood-axe tank bustas *should* be able to shoot (and the wagon charge), since they have their own ability to ignore part of the restriction.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Begin shooting phase.
Can this battle wagon, which fell back, shoot?
No, because it fell back.
Yes, because it has an ability that lets it shoot even though it fell back.
Result: Yes, it can shoot.
Does it have any other restrictions or penalties?
No.

Summary: Battlewagon can shoot without restriction (Though doing so will prevent it charging).

Can grots shoot?
Yes, with the same restrictions and modifiers as the wagon.
Are there any restrictions or modifiers?
No.
Result: Grots can shoot.

If the grots shoot but the wagon doesn’t can the wagon charge?
Did the wagon shoot? No.
If the wagon didn’t shoot then it can charge.
Result: It can charge.

Addressing some points made:
Grots don’t need the wagon kultur ability because they only care if the wagon can shoot and the wagon having that ability means it can and so they too can. The models inside haven’t done anything and so they get whatever the vehicle they’re riding in gets, both positive and negative. The wagon applies falling back restrictions and then itself removes them.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






The battlewagon is still under the effect of a restriction or modifier, it just has another ability that allows the BW to ignore said restriction or modifier.

This is the same as lootas in a moving BW; the BW can ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, but the lootas are still penalized.


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Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Gendif wrote:
Begin shooting phase.
Can this battle wagon, which fell back, shoot?
No, because it fell back.
Yes, because it has an ability that lets it shoot even though it fell back.
Result: Yes, it can shoot.
Does it have any other restrictions or penalties?
No.

Summary: Battlewagon can shoot without restriction (Though doing so will prevent it charging).

Can grots shoot?
Yes, with the same restrictions and modifiers as the wagon.
Are there any restrictions or modifiers?
No.
Result: Grots can shoot.

The wagon can shoot after fallback because of its clan kultur rule. This klan kultur rule does not apply to the grots inside. First, a klan kultur is neither a restriction nor a modifier. Second, grots cant benefit from any clan kultur rule. Thus, grots cant shoot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/08 14:21:17


 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

The Fall Back restriction on the battle wagon doesn't go away when it gets permission to ignore it from the Kultur. It still passes on the restriction to the grots. They can't shoot.

 
   
Made in ar
Been Around the Block





 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The battlewagon is still under the effect of a restriction or modifier, it just has another ability that allows the BW to ignore said restriction or modifier.

This is the same as lootas in a moving BW; the BW can ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, but the lootas are still penalized.



Yep, exactly this. The restriction is "cant shoot after falling back" and thats what passes to the crew. The example Kommissar Kel gave was the one that I was going to use... unless your unit inside has a rule that lets it ignore this restriction it cant shoot.
And as some people said if the unit inside has some rule that allows it to shoot (orks with Blood axe klan for example) and it does so but the wagon doesnt, then the wagon can charge.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Sadly, as other people have mentioned; the Battlewagon is still under the modifier, it just gets to ignore it (due to special rules).

It's the reason why "Mobile Fortress" doesn't benefit the passengers inside - a REAL shame, but what can you do?
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Well, the model fell back, and that status has been conferred to the passengers.

I think this is really a question about whether or not the passengers have a special rule allowing them to shoot after falling back. If they don't, they can't.

Since grots don't get the Kulture, they can't. That's how I would play it.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Thankfully it's tankbustas-in-a-wagon that I'd really want to fall-back/shoot/charge, since the grots can just shoot their pistols while the wagon stays stuck-in. Except my 'bustas are in a trukk, since the grots stole my only wagon .
   
 
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