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Well here they are!

Tankbusta bomb is back (one in five),
but ALL the heavy weapons are gone!

No more rokkit (ok there was no model),
Big shoota or burna for kommandos.

"No model no rules" strikes again!

They are still a favorite of mine but why on earth
did they removed all the heavy weapons?!

mortar_crew wrote:
Well here they are!

Tankbusta bomb is back (one in five),
but ALL the heavy weapons are gone!

No more rokkit (ok there was no model),
Big shoota or burna for kommandos.

"No model no rules" strikes again!

They are still a favorite of mine but why on earth
did they removed all the heavy weapons?!

Kommandos are on page 99 of the codex. If you're complaining about a lack of options, the Index options are still legal (for now). Sadly No Model, No Rules is here to stay and all I can say is if you dislike it, let GW know and then move on to a different game.

Really nothing about the Kommando kit that you couldn't make with a regular boyz box.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:
Well here they are!

Tankbusta bomb is back (one in five),
but ALL the heavy weapons are gone!

No more rokkit (ok there was no model),
Big shoota or burna for kommandos.

"No model no rules" strikes again!

They are still a favorite of mine but why on earth
did they removed all the heavy weapons?!

Kommandos are on page 99 of the codex. If you're complaining about a lack of options, the Index options are still legal (for now). Sadly No Model, No Rules is here to stay and all I can say is if you dislike it, let GW know and then move on to a different game.

Well I know this very well and when we are at it, P64 also stipulates that "Kommandos occasionnaly use heavy weapons"... so.

More models to shelve I think. Still love the criters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frontline989 wrote:
Really nothing about the Kommando kit that you couldn't make with a regular boyz box.

Indeed.
Especially since Forgeworld still (God forbid!) sell a kit to make
Boyz into Kommandos...

There are models for these heavy weapons if not the metal ones
(where the rokkit has always been missing anyway)

I will shoot amail to GW about this one, may be we'll get some kind of
add-on in a feature FAC or Chapter Approved.

Until then...

mortar_crew wrote:
I will shoot amail to GW about this one, may be we'll get some kind of
add-on in a feature FAC or Chapter Approved.

I already explained that the Index entries are still legal, for now. I will eat my hat if they don't remove Indexes from Matched play come any official 8.5 release/codex refresh however.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:
I will shoot amail to GW about this one, may be we'll get some kind of
add-on in a feature FAC or Chapter Approved.

I already explained that the Index entries are still legal, for now. I will eat my hat if they don't remove Indexes from Matched play come any official 8.5 release/codex refresh however.

You are right. And that is the problem for me:
these indexes will be gone sooner than later and then
all these models will be gone as far as Matched play is concerned.

mortar_crew wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:
I will shoot amail to GW about this one, may be we'll get some kind of
add-on in a feature FAC or Chapter Approved.

I already explained that the Index entries are still legal, for now. I will eat my hat if they don't remove Indexes from Matched play come any official 8.5 release/codex refresh however.

You are right. And that is the problem for me:
these indexes will be gone sooner than later and then
all these models will be gone as far as Matched play is concerned.

And that affects you, how? It doesn't change the models you own. WYSIWYG isn't a thing and hasn't been for years. You're still able to use Kommandos, just not with the options you previously had. That isn't a problem exclusive to Orks, it's affected all armies for many years now. I can't give my Callidus Assassins Terminator Armour anymore after all!

mortar_crew wrote:

Especially since Forgeworld still (God forbid!) sell a kit to make
Boyz into Kommandos...

I find this specific element particularly troubling. I cannot tell how much of this is obliviousness, spite, competition, instructions from above, and so on.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:

Especially since Forgeworld still (God forbid!) sell a kit to make
Boyz into Kommandos...

I find this specific element particularly troubling. I cannot tell how much of this is obliviousness, spite, competition, instructions from above, and so on.

GW screwed up royally with the Chapterhouse lawsuit and now we the consumers are paying the price for it.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:

Especially since Forgeworld still (God forbid!) sell a kit to make
Boyz into Kommandos...

I find this specific element particularly troubling. I cannot tell how much of this is obliviousness, spite, competition, instructions from above, and so on.

GW screwed up royally with the Chapterhouse lawsuit and now we the consumers are paying the price for it.

I keep hearing reference to that. What the hell went on?

 Vankraken wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:

Especially since Forgeworld still (God forbid!) sell a kit to make
Boyz into Kommandos...

I find this specific element particularly troubling. I cannot tell how much of this is obliviousness, spite, competition, instructions from above, and so on.

GW screwed up royally with the Chapterhouse lawsuit and now we the consumers are paying the price for it.

But in this case, they have a sister company (or something, how should I define FW?) that produces options for their rules.
I mean, the current boss Kommando does not even has a Big Choppa option, and FW produces the Kommando kit... with the Nob equipped with Big Choppa.
I understand having Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder, but this is shooting yourself in your own foot.

ccs wrote:
I keep hearing reference to that. What the hell went on?

tl;dr Chapterhouse were making 3rd party bits. The problem is that they were using GW trademarks in naming their bits. Instead of "Mongolian Supersoldier Heads" they were selling them as "White Scars heads". Instead of "Generic Alien Tentacle Funhouse" they were selling them as "Mycetic Spores". GW sicced their lawyers onto them only for half the complaints to be ruled in Chapterhouses favour. Basically because GW weren't making models for the rules in their codex, it was ok for Chapterhouse to sell those models under those names.

Thus, "No Model, No Rules" was born, since GW couldn't legally stop competitors making models they weren't making themselves.

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Thus, "No Model, No Rules" was born, since GW couldn't legally stop competitors making models they weren't making themselves.

Yes but it's not universal and some units can have options that are not included in their original kit.

The drukhari succubus gained all the wych weapons, which were never included in a succubus profile before, and are available only in the wyches kit. Ork deffkoptas with rokkits are still part of the codex even if they are not on the catalogue since ages, while kommandos with burna had an original model that became out of stock one year ago or something like that. Ork painboy lost the killsaw option while mek can still have it despite no model with it. Ork nobz leading boyz, stormboyz and bikes squad can have options that are available only by kitbashing, some of them weren't even included in the index. SW termies can have combi weapons that are not included in their kit or in any other SW box, and troops can be equipped with flamers or meltaguns, while there's no SW kit that comes with those weapons either.....

"No model no rule" it's just a trend that is not always respected. That's why people may complain about it.

mortar_crew wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:
I will shoot amail to GW about this one, may be we'll get some kind of
add-on in a feature FAC or Chapter Approved.

I already explained that the Index entries are still legal, for now. I will eat my hat if they don't remove Indexes from Matched play come any official 8.5 release/codex refresh however.

You are right. And that is the problem for me:
these indexes will be gone sooner than later and then
all these models will be gone as far as Matched play is concerned.

And already banned for many. Ultimately what gw writes isn't all that important or relevant

So what about models like the GM NDK, he doesn't have a model just a conversion shown on the GW site? Same with the GK librarian, no model for it either.

Can someone explain to me the whole chapter house thing? If it is too long, it can be in a PM, because it seems confusing to me. Why would GW worry about some company making knock off GW models, if GW models are better or cheaper people wouldn't buy the fake ones.

Karol wrote:
So what about models like the GM NDK, he doesn't have a model just a conversion shown on the GW site? Same with the GK librarian, no model for it either.

Can someone explain to me the whole chapter house thing? If it is too long, it can be in a PM, because it seems confusing to me. Why would GW worry about some company making knock off GW models, if GW models are better or cheaper people wouldn't buy the fake ones.

Gw doesn#t believe in competing with others. Instead they try to prevent competition with zero success. Who says gw is smart about it?

mortar_crew wrote:
Well here they are!

Tankbusta bomb is back (one in five),
but ALL the heavy weapons are gone!

No more rokkit (ok there was no model),
Big shoota or burna for kommandos.

"No model no rules" strikes again!

They are still a favorite of mine but why on earth
did they removed all the heavy weapons?!

I love my Kommandos but GW has ruined them for this edition except maybe as Evil Sunz...because apparently blood axes don't have Kommandos......I find it rather odd that the best Klan you can put Kommandos in is the least likely that they would normally be found in


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the most likely klan to put them in (Blood Axes) has the worst klan trait to benefit them. In cover if beyond 18'.....Kommandos want to be 9' away on turn 2 from Infiltrate, why the hell would they want to be in a blood axe army

tneva82 wrote:

Karol wrote:
So what about models like the GM NDK, he doesn't have a model just a conversion shown on the GW site? Same with the GK librarian, no model for it either.

Can someone explain to me the whole chapter house thing? If it is too long, it can be in a PM, because it seems confusing to me. Why would GW worry about some company making knock off GW models, if GW models are better or cheaper people wouldn't buy the fake ones.

Gw doesn#t believe in competing with others. Instead they try to prevent competition with zero success. Who says gw is smart about it?

Ok, thanks for the explanation.

SemperMortis wrote:

mortar_crew wrote:
Well here they are!

Tankbusta bomb is back (one in five),
but ALL the heavy weapons are gone!

No more rokkit (ok there was no model),
Big shoota or burna for kommandos.

"No model no rules" strikes again!

They are still a favorite of mine but why on earth
did they removed all the heavy weapons?!

I love my Kommandos but GW has ruined them for this edition except maybe as Evil Sunz...because apparently blood axes don't have Kommandos......I find it rather odd that the best Klan you can put Kommandos in is the least likely that they would normally be found in


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the most likely klan to put them in (Blood Axes) has the worst klan trait to benefit them. In cover if beyond 18'.....Kommandos want to be 9' away on turn 2 from Infiltrate, why the hell would they want to be in a blood axe army

Well that's what you get with these free rules for traits etc. Screw balance, screws fluff

I don't know much about orcs, but couldn't GW just give kommands taken as blood axs, some extra rule?

Well, some wargear options from index don't make much sense... Free burnaz? I feel cheat taking them even if I have a metal Ork Kommando with Burna!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, some wargear options from index don't make much sense... Free burnaz? I feel cheat taking them even if I have a metal Ork Kommando with Burna!

Well in codex free tankbustas...which is also silly. But free burna due to gw putting points to back of codex(and then abandoning only benefit that has)

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, some wargear options from index don't make much sense... Free burnaz? I feel cheat taking them even if I have a metal Ork Kommando with Burna!

So the balance from index was 3 Burnas cost 42pts, for that same price you could take 7 Shoota boyz. At 18' range the Shoota boyz can shoot 14 shots for 4-5 hits and 2-3 wounds, same thing from 9-18inch range, when you finally get to 8' range (flamer range) those 3 burnas are able to punch out 6 hits for 3 wounds on average vs T4. So shoota boyz are literally BETTER at shooting across the board point for point then Burna's were. When they get into CC those Burnas get 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds at -2AP so against a Space Marine that is a 2/3rd chance to kill so ROUGHLY (EMPHASIS ROUGHLY) 1.3 dead Marines, those same shoota boyz get 14 attacks for 10ish hits, 5 wounds and against Space marines with their 3+ save that is 1.66 Dead Marines on average. So shoota boyz were BETTER in CC than Burnas.

So to balance out the codex internally and Feth being competitive against anyone else, they decreased the cost of Burna boyz from 14ppm to 12ppm and increased the cost of shoota boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm. That is literally the only benefits they got outside of strats/klan tactics. (Unless you really want to count 1 tankbusta bomb per 10 models) But anyway, the new breakdown is 3 Burna boyz (36pts) vs 5 Shoota Boyz (35pts) Shoota boyz get 10 shots from 9inches to 18 inches while Burnas get none, When they finally get in range of each other the shoota boyz are getting 10 shots, 3 hits 1.5 wounds, the Burna boyz are getting 6 hits for 3 wounds. So its a toss up, Shoota boyz win from 9-18 and Burna's are twice as good once you are within 8'. In CC the shoota boyz get 10 attacks, 7ish hits, 3.5 wounds for 1.16 dead Marines. Burnaboyz get 6 attacks for 4 hits, 2 wounds and 1.3 dead Marines.

So Burna boyz still suck almost as bad and shoota boyz got significantly worse

So in conclusion, don't feel bad about taking a "free" Burna when in reality it is a MINOR buff.

SemperMortis wrote:

So Burna boyz still suck almost as bad and shoota boyz got significantly worse

Question: is far from being optimal, but can the index version of the spanna option be used? In this way one can put 4-6 KMB in a trukk (2 burna units together) and reroll 1s with Bad Moons. Eventually dismount and finish off in melee with the burnas.
Again, not optimal but to give some purpose to the unit (anti-elite infantry) if one likes the models...

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So Burna boyz still suck almost as bad and shoota boyz got significantly worse

Question: is far from being optimal, but can the index version of the spanna option be used? In this way one can put 4-6 KMB in a trukk (2 burna units together) and reroll 1s with Bad Moons. Eventually dismount and finish off in melee with the burnas.
Again, not optimal but to give some purpose to the unit (anti-elite infantry) if one likes the models...

Yes you can do that, but honestly, with that amount of KMB's that are S8 -3 AP with D6 damage you can basically turn that into a vehicle hunting unit, just don't expect great results as you noted.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So Burna boyz still suck almost as bad and shoota boyz got significantly worse

Question: is far from being optimal, but can the index version of the spanna option be used? In this way one can put 4-6 KMB in a trukk (2 burna units together) and reroll 1s with Bad Moons. Eventually dismount and finish off in melee with the burnas.
Again, not optimal but to give some purpose to the unit (anti-elite infantry) if one likes the models...

No, it cannot. You must use codex datasheet for the unit. The only things you can use from the index are wargear options, as per the Designers Commentary.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So Burna boyz still suck almost as bad and shoota boyz got significantly worse

Question: is far from being optimal, but can the index version of the spanna option be used? In this way one can put 4-6 KMB in a trukk (2 burna units together) and reroll 1s with Bad Moons. Eventually dismount and finish off in melee with the burnas.
Again, not optimal but to give some purpose to the unit (anti-elite infantry) if one likes the models...

No, it cannot. You must use codex datasheet for the unit. The only things you can use from the index are wargear options, as per the Designers Commentary.

I suspected that. Thanks for the answers (to both).
I am struggling to understand the change, especially because one can actually build 3 spanners form the box, disregarding the head.

Probably to limit the amount of repairing you can do to the shiny new vehicles.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Probably to limit the amount of repairing you can do to the shiny new vehicles.

I doubt that there is such nuance. It's more like "weapons present in the box or not, there is ONE spanner head".
Pathetic.