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Bremon wrote:
Which hurts chaff and helps marines who are overpriced from MEQ to TEQ, and doesn’t force people to buy third party bitz to have enough plasma to go around. Thanks, you’ve convinced me that my off-hand remark is a good idea.

No, you're definitely still using bits because what you'd want to run are Wolf Guard bike squads who all have storm bolters and chainswords or shields, or 3 man scout bike squads with storm bolter sergeants, or maybe 3 man DW bike squads with a storm bolter sergeant. I haven't bought any bikes in years but I know the first two squads definitely need a bits box.

Yeah, I have a couple boxes of bikes but they definitely look their age at this point and it’s odd that they have so many options in the books still while other stuff stays “index only”.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally LOL at the notion of a 50 point price hike. Some of you are as bad at balancing as normal GW.

Also I would totally run mono Death Guard again if my Plague Marines had 2 attacks again. Noise Marines and Berserker Marines kept theirs.

Again? When did they have two attacks? They have not had more than one attack since 4th edition, maybe even longer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Well I haven't played many games with my DG yet, but I would like to see more reasons to take Plague Marines, they are really cool models, but they don't really feel as good as the old plague marines. Old marines had +1 attack, and the option to take two of all special weapons. I really miss having the melta guns, I mean I KNOW triple plasma is way better, but I miss the option.

Plague marines have not had two attacks since 4th (I have both codices in front of me) and they can still take two melta guns, just like the could in the last codex.

I know, I first started playing 40k with the old 4th edition CSM codex, plague marines were pretty slick with a 4+ FNP and a powerfist on their 3 attack sergeant.

I also misread about them not having melta guns anymore.

 Marmatag wrote:
Death Guard are one of the top factions in the game. They're already great.

Doesn't mean they don't need changes. Crawlers need to be made into proper artillery pieces, Deathshroud need to be able to play their bodyguard role properly and CSM copy-pastes need to get T5 and DR (Helbrutes too). All in exchange for a fair price hike of course. I'd gladly spend 190 points on a Crawler with Grinding Advance (then get 3 of them and an Arch-Contaminator Chaos Lord for 6D6 Battle Cannon shots that reroll 1s to hit and all wound rolls ).

The problem is they’re worth 190 now. Grinding advance at 190 just ensures they remain auto-picks.

Bremon wrote:
The problem is they’re worth 190 now. Grinding advance at 190 just ensures they remain auto-picks.

190 points right now? Sure, they're 'ard as nails but 190 points for 2 slightly upgunned heavy flamers and an improved Battlecannon that hits on 5s because it always moves? That's pretty damn steep if you ask me. Also, I have no problem with faction-unique units being auto-picks (as long as they're not OP compared to what other factions can field). They're an integral part of said factions' way of warfare so they should be more powerful than widely available stuff like Predators IMO. Also, with Entropy Cannons a Grinding Advance crawler would end up at around 210 points? Doesn't seem that undercosted to me... sure, they could be bumped to 220-230 (200-210 for spitters) but much more and they'll end up being overcosted.

Pandabeer wrote:

Bremon wrote:
The problem is they’re worth 190 now. Grinding advance at 190 just ensures they remain auto-picks.

190 points right now? Sure, they're 'ard as nails but 190 points for 2 slightly upgunned heavy flamers and an improved Battlecannon that hits on 5s because it always moves? That's pretty damn steep if you ask me. Also, I have no problem with faction-unique units being auto-picks (as long as they're not OP compared to what other factions can field). They're an integral part of said factions' way of warfare so they should be more powerful than widely available stuff like Predators IMO. Also, with Entropy Cannons a Grinding Advance crawler would end up at around 210 points? Doesn't seem that undercosted to me... sure, they could be bumped to 220-230 (200-210 for spitters) but much more and they'll end up being overcosted.

190 seems pretty steep, 160 sure, but 190 for two tough heavy flamers (the mortar is crap... D6 shots and BS5+ on the move, no thanks) is really stretching it. The problem is that stuff like Predators, Dreadnoughts, Centurions, Land Raiders etc etc etc is overcosted rather than the crawler being severely undercosted. Also, individual heavy weapons are extremely overrated, more so at BS 4+. Whereas a single lascannon could wreck a tank in previous editions, you really need them in multiples to take out other vehicles now.

I couldn’t disagree more with your thoughts on auto-include units. That type of thing just hurts the game. Aside from that, your use for the PBC is basically an obese crab version of a drone. Grinding advance significantly buffs the support battery crawler with entropy cannons. Why should a sub 200 point model be able to reliably pick off 100 points of heavy infantry every turn while being about as survivable as a land raider? It’s asinine. Giving them a version of the chapter tactic that allows them to move up to 6” without -1 to hit let’s them be either support batteries, or roll alongside the horde without punishing one style of play or inadvertently buffing another. It also means the infernal machines strat still has a use (which combined with shooting twice would be a bit much honestly). A crawler that functioned this way would easily see the table at 170-180 with flamers and 180-190 with entropy cannons. Hell, it would still be an auto pick next to an autocannon/lascannon Pred if the Predator cost 150. If a crawler isn’t worth more than 160 right now the Pred is overpriced by 60-70 points.

If anything, I’m realizing the crux of my difference of opinion comes from opinions in this thread factoring in rolling crawlers with overpriced flamers vs static crawlers with cannons. I’ve never had the former achieve anything of value or been uncomfortable to play against it while a couple of crawlers with entropy cannons have been successful when I’ve used them and wreak havoc when I play against them.

Bremon wrote:
I couldn’t disagree more with your thoughts on auto-include units. That type of thing just hurts the game. Aside from that, your use for the PBC is basically an obese crab version of a drone. Grinding advance significantly buffs the support battery crawler with entropy cannons. Why should a sub 200 point model be able to reliably pick off 100 points of heavy infantry every turn while being about as survivable as a land raider? It’s asinine. Giving them a version of the chapter tactic that allows them to move up to 6” without -1 to hit let’s them be either support batteries, or roll alongside the horde without punishing one style of play or inadvertently buffing another. It also means the infernal machines strat still has a use (which combined with shooting twice would be a bit much honestly). A crawler that functioned this way would easily see the table at 170-180 with flamers and 180-190 with entropy cannons. Hell, it would still be an auto pick next to an autocannon/lascannon Pred if the Predator cost 150. If a crawler isn’t worth more than 160 right now the Pred is overpriced by 60-70 points.

If anything, I’m realizing the crux of my difference of opinion comes from opinions in this thread factoring in rolling crawlers with overpriced flamers vs static crawlers with cannons. I’ve never had the former achieve anything of value or been uncomfortable to play against it while a couple of crawlers with entropy cannons have been successful when I’ve used them and wreak havoc when I play against them.

Well, I've actually using them with the cannons, but not to much effect yet... maybe I'm just rolling bad or doing something else wrong, but the thing that my Crawlers are mainly good at seems to just be absorbing a gakton of damage. Dealing damage has been underwhelming thus far. Maybe it could also help if Entropy Cannons were to be made Plague Weapons (in exchange for making them +3-5 pts or something), then you'd have real cause to also invest in an Arch Contaminator Chaos Lord to put beside them.

Reason I've been using the Spitter loadout as an example is because that seems to be the consensus as for what the best build is. At least it was a while back, has that changed?

Make DG great again, and you want to nerf the one good unit DG got? (+Prince with plate)
They got other decent units, but the PBC is the only competitively good one.

Crawlers are basically free points. Their BS gets pointed at as if -1 BS isn’t a no-brainer trade off for +1T, +1W, 5++ and 5+++ and a points drop. There’s a reason they show up in every DG list and Predators show up in none. They either sit on objectives ignored, or they soak up a completely skewed amount of firepower. Any damage they do is just icing on the cake; they still blow stuff up. Entropy cannons should be plague weapons. Basically everything in the book should. I’ve blown up plenty of stuff with entropy cannons without godlike rolling, and the best part is you don’t have to do it on the first turn because you can basically guarantee crawlers will still be on the table on turn 3-4 unlike most other tanks in the game. I’ve also had crawlers used against me and they’ve blown plenty of stuff up on turn one.

 Wibe wrote:
Make DG great again, and you want to nerf the one good unit DG got? (+Prince with plate)
They got other decent units, but the PBC is the only competitively good one.

If you bother to read the thread there are suggestions for better internal balance in the book. It doesn’t involve cranking everything up to 11. It involves buffing the things that don’t work and slightly reworking the things are overly efficient. Besides; your “one good unit” is a soup ingredient, and that means GW will smash it with the nerf bat because soup is what’s on the menu, but the ingredients can’t be too potent. Brace for impact Wibe.

The reason Daemons are in the codex is for daemonic ritual. I think its right they don't share the DG keyword because they arent DG.

My problem with plaguemarines is the same problem with chaos as a whole, you're better off with cultists/poxwalker/tzangors as your troops units than actual marines.

The chaos lord and sorceror being in the book is only to differentiate between them and new kits, LOC and MPC. Its stupid that Lord of contagion has no lord of chaos re-roll aura but I never take a plaguecaster over a sorceror.

Bremon wrote:
Crawlers are basically free points. Their BS gets pointed at as if -1 BS isn’t a no-brainer trade off for +1T, +1W, 5++ and 5+++ and a points drop. There’s a reason they show up in every DG list and Predators show up in none. They either sit on objectives ignored, or they soak up a completely skewed amount of firepower. Any damage they do is just icing on the cake; they still blow stuff up. Entropy cannons should be plague weapons. Basically everything in the book should. I’ve blown up plenty of stuff with entropy cannons without godlike rolling, and the best part is you don’t have to do it on the first turn because you can basically guarantee crawlers will still be on the table on turn 3-4 unlike most other tanks in the game. I’ve also had crawlers used against me and they’ve blown plenty of stuff up on turn one.

Isn't "being on the table turn 3-4" kind of the whole point of death guard? Spitter PBC are too powerful, but the ones with entropy cannons are just durable lascannon predators. If anything, not drones or PBC should go up in price, but plaguespitters.

Well you can’t have your cake and eat it too, so you either pay fair points for being on the table the entire game, or you forget about even remotely increasing the offensive output of the crawler. It needs a points hike even before the second part starts to be factored in.

“Just durable lascannon predators” is an apt description for them with cannons. So why are they currently 34 points cheaper?

Bremon wrote:
Well you can’t have your cake and eat it too, so you either pay fair points for being on the table the entire game, or you forget about even remotely increasing the offensive output of the crawler. It needs a points hike even before the second part starts to be factored in.

“Just durable lascannon predators” is an apt description for them with cannons. So why are they currently 34 points cheaper?

Because predators are way overpriced. There is absolutely no need for a 190 pts predator, even if the crawler would be up around the same price.

What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All I see is - I want all my units to get a 5+++ for the cost of 0. Cause reasons. Meanwhile Greyknight auto lose vs daemons. Come on man. This is distraction.

Hate to gatekeep here, but I take it you don't play DG. There is ZERO logical reason why Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed do not have T5 and DR, yet the rest of the army does. This is a stupid whim of GW as they are victims of the "no kit, no rules" dumbfethery. Numerous people who play against DG assume they do and are always surprised to find they don't.

Give them a points bump. Nobody is asking for this for free.

For comparison's sake, the generic units in the Thousand Sons codex such as the Terminator Sorcerer have Inferno rounds in their boltguns. I imagine that if Death Guard had come out later in the development cycle the Chaos Lord would have DR.

Bremon wrote:
What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

I think even 140 would be ok, you have to consider how bad pure DGs long range anti tank capabilities are.

Bremon wrote:
What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

That might be a bit optimistic. Let’s compare two units though, the crimson hunter exarch and full lc predator. The former is 175pts for a comparable damage output (i’m too lazy to do the exact math right now while on my phone) and at BS 2+ re-rolling 1s. Not to mention it has +1 wound, is a flyer and thus -1 to hit, but -1 toughness. It’s better than the predator in pretty much every respect. Going by this logic a full lc predator could be an... let’s say.. arbitrary 150-160pts. At this pts cost I would seriously consider the venerable little metal box. But 190? No way, no reason for it to be that.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All I see is - I want all my units to get a 5+++ for the cost of 0. Cause reasons. Meanwhile Greyknight auto lose vs daemons. Come on man. This is distraction.

Hate to gatekeep here, but I take it you don't play DG. There is ZERO logical reason why Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed do not have T5 and DR, yet the rest of the army does. This is a stupid whim of GW as they are victims of the "no kit, no rules" dumbfethery. Numerous people who play against DG assume they do and are always surprised to find they don't.

Give them a points bump. Nobody is asking for this for free.

For comparison's sake, the generic units in the Thousand Sons codex such as the Terminator Sorcerer have Inferno rounds in their boltguns. I imagine that if Death Guard had come out later in the development cycle the Chaos Lord would have DR.

TS sorcerors do not have all is dust. Pretty sure it is intended.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All I see is - I want all my units to get a 5+++ for the cost of 0. Cause reasons. Meanwhile Greyknight auto lose vs daemons. Come on man. This is distraction.

Hate to gatekeep here, but I take it you don't play DG. There is ZERO logical reason why Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed do not have T5 and DR, yet the rest of the army does. This is a stupid whim of GW as they are victims of the "no kit, no rules" dumbfethery. Numerous people who play against DG assume they do and are always surprised to find they don't.

Give them a points bump. Nobody is asking for this for free.

For comparison's sake, the generic units in the Thousand Sons codex such as the Terminator Sorcerer have Inferno rounds in their boltguns. I imagine that if Death Guard had come out later in the development cycle the Chaos Lord would have DR.

TS sorcerors do not have all is dust. Pretty sure it is intended.

That’s because TS sorcerors aren’t dust (afaik). Thus it makes sense. No DR for nurgly lords makes no sense though.

Bremon wrote:
What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

I would take quad lascannons for the same price as an entropy PBC (146), math shows them to be pretty much on equal footing against T7, with the predatory being a lot better against T8. T8 is something DG struggle with, so I would take one instead of a PBC just to have more options.

So 136 for the AC/LC thing. Sounds about right to me.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All I see is - I want all my units to get a 5+++ for the cost of 0. Cause reasons. Meanwhile Greyknight auto lose vs daemons. Come on man. This is distraction.

Hate to gatekeep here, but I take it you don't play DG. There is ZERO logical reason why Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed do not have T5 and DR, yet the rest of the army does. This is a stupid whim of GW as they are victims of the "no kit, no rules" dumbfethery. Numerous people who play against DG assume they do and are always surprised to find they don't.

Give them a points bump. Nobody is asking for this for free.

For comparison's sake, the generic units in the Thousand Sons codex such as the Terminator Sorcerer have Inferno rounds in their boltguns. I imagine that if Death Guard had come out later in the development cycle the Chaos Lord would have DR.

TS sorcerors do not have all is dust. Pretty sure it is intended.

...Neither do the Exalted Sorcerers? The universal rule that applies to all Thousand Sons is inferno bolters. All Is Dust is very specifically the Rubricae.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All I see is - I want all my units to get a 5+++ for the cost of 0. Cause reasons. Meanwhile Greyknight auto lose vs daemons. Come on man. This is distraction.

Hate to gatekeep here, but I take it you don't play DG. There is ZERO logical reason why Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed do not have T5 and DR, yet the rest of the army does. This is a stupid whim of GW as they are victims of the "no kit, no rules" dumbfethery. Numerous people who play against DG assume they do and are always surprised to find they don't.

Give them a points bump. Nobody is asking for this for free.

For comparison's sake, the generic units in the Thousand Sons codex such as the Terminator Sorcerer have Inferno rounds in their boltguns. I imagine that if Death Guard had come out later in the development cycle the Chaos Lord would have DR.

TS sorcerors do not have all is dust. Pretty sure it is intended.

...Neither do the Exalted Sorcerers? The universal rule that applies to all Thousand Sons is inferno bolters. All Is Dust is very specifically the Rubricae.

They are in the same armor though.

Do you not know anything about any armies other than your own? Rubric Marines don't have All Is Dust because they have special power armor, they have it because they are made of dust. Thousand Sons Sorcerers, who are still people, would naturally not have that rule. This applies as much to the faction-specific Exalted Sorcerer as the generic CSM Sorcerers in the codex.

Gryphonne wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All I see is - I want all my units to get a 5+++ for the cost of 0. Cause reasons. Meanwhile Greyknight auto lose vs daemons. Come on man. This is distraction.

Hate to gatekeep here, but I take it you don't play DG. There is ZERO logical reason why Chaos Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed do not have T5 and DR, yet the rest of the army does. This is a stupid whim of GW as they are victims of the "no kit, no rules" dumbfethery. Numerous people who play against DG assume they do and are always surprised to find they don't.

Give them a points bump. Nobody is asking for this for free.

For comparison's sake, the generic units in the Thousand Sons codex such as the Terminator Sorcerer have Inferno rounds in their boltguns. I imagine that if Death Guard had come out later in the development cycle the Chaos Lord would have DR.

TS sorcerors do not have all is dust. Pretty sure it is intended.

That’s because TS sorcerors aren’t dust (afaik). Thus it makes sense. No DR for nurgly lords makes no sense though.

I would love for Thousand Sons Lords to have All Is Dust, myself. Make them a more powerful automaton of sorts, ya know?

Trollbert wrote:

Bremon wrote:
What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

I think even 140 would be ok, you have to consider how bad pure DGs long range anti tank capabilities are.

That could potentially be reasonable. Lack of Havocs, oblits, etc. really forces mono-DG’s hand.

Gryphonne wrote:

Bremon wrote:
What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

That might be a bit optimistic. Let’s compare two units though, the crimson hunter exarch and full lc predator. The former is 175pts for a comparable damage output (i’m too lazy to do the exact math right now while on my phone) and at BS 2+ re-rolling 1s. Not to mention it has +1 wound, is a flyer and thus -1 to hit, but -1 toughness. It’s better than the predator in pretty much every respect. Going by this logic a full lc predator could be an... let’s say.. arbitrary 150-160pts. At this pts cost I would seriously consider the venerable little metal box. But 190? No way, no reason for it to be that.

120 is likely too low for that, but I would still take a 146 point crawler over a 160 point LC Pred. The difference in staying power is just too great. Preds are easily destroyed in the first turn, while Crawlers handle damage better thanks to DR, and T8 helps mitigate weapons like OC plasma and krak missiles. Hell, the 5++ even takes some sting out of a lascannon shot, and PBC just laughs at how inefficient it makes melta.

 Jidmah wrote:

Bremon wrote:
What would it take for Predators to show up in DG lists? 120 points for AC/LC loadout?

I would take quad lascannons for the same price as an entropy PBC (146), math shows them to be pretty much on equal footing against T7, with the predatory being a lot better against T8. T8 is something DG struggle with, so I would take one instead of a PBC just to have more options.

So 136 for the AC/LC thing. Sounds about right to me.

A 10 point savings I fear doesn’t make a compelling argument for the Pred. The +1 BS isn’t worth a damn when it gets less than half the shots off before it’s destroyed imo.

Everyone’s suggestions on reasonable Predator pricing makes sense to me when looking at what a Pred offers, but it galvanizes my opinion that the PBC is severely undercosted and would still be spammed even at +30-40 points.

Hell I'd be willing to ally Preds into my Deathwatch if they were 140 each. That really tickles my brain.

I certainly wouldn’t be as salty when they blow up when I don’t go second if they were 140. I’d see them across the table more, and ideally the rest of marine tanks would get a re-do so we might actually see (gasp) vindicators, Baal preds, etc. on the table instead of exclusively devastators.

Gryphonne wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Death Guard are one of the top factions in the game. They're already great.

This is nonsense. The best units are: Crawlers, Bloat Drones and DPs. Other units hardly see any action, let alone Plague Marines. Death Guard suffer from a lack of strategems, copy paste units that in the spirit of "Death Guard" make no sense and overpriced infantry; like many other codices. I don't want a "top faction" soup codex, I want playable units other than the top 3.

You have that. The issue with your argument is you’re looking at it through a hyper competitive lense. See that logic can be applied to ynnari lists the best unit is yvraine that’s it with out yvraine shining spears and dark reapers are mediocre without word of the phoenix! Nonsense. You’re under valuing units that are absolutely playable just not in a hyper competitive environment. Further the term soup has been bastardized, a 1500 DG list with a Knight is not soup. The original soup that GW Faqed out was taking different chapter units in one detachment. IE alaitoc rangers and Siam hann jet bikes in the same detachment. Bringing a detachment with a Knight is intended and the reality of the game, get used to it. If anything the only issue DG face is the same any power armor army does and that’s the point costs of certain units needs to come down slightly. Otherwise DG are in pretty good shape compared to most.