Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the_scotsman wrote:


No, it's not assuming the gunner hits.

Example: Vs a DE Raider

Smasha: 2 shots average, *.5 hits, *.8333 wounds (odds of rolling 5 or better on 2d6) *.666 unsaved, *3.5 average damage on 1d6 = 1.94, .054 damage per point.

Trakktor, 1 shot, 1 hit, .666 wounds, .666 unsaved, 4.5 average damage on 2d6 pick highest = 1.99, .044 damage per point.

And against this unit the extra point of AP that the smasha has doesn't even matter.

The trakktor is only more effective for the points when it bypasses at least one -1 to hit. You might include a couple for the edge case where you're facing aliatoc flyerspam or something, but the Trakktor is in no way such a crazygonuts thing to put into the game that it "shouldn't exist." its lower damage output overall makes it a niche unit, and TBH it's a niche that should exist, because the competitive meta for the whole of the existence of 8th has highlighted that spamming - to hit is too strong and doesn't have enough counters in the game.

This is only part of the picture. Preventing streaks can have a big impact on the outcome. I'll run some numbers when I get the chance.

Weird, I figured when you said: "First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away." you meant that the current iteration of the trakktor kannon should not exist.

In reality, it doesn't really make an enormous difference except to provide a powerful counter to one currently dominant meta trend.

 some bloke wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
it is probable that they will mix up the local meta due to their flexibility and unpredictability.

This is always what I loved about playing my Orks. I'd accept a challenge from "that tau guy" or (back when they were powerful) "The grey knights player", to the saddened shaking of heads from onlookers, only to have an exceptionally close game because it's almost impossible to tailor against "Orks". You can tailor against "Green tide", "Dread Bash", "Battlewagon Brigade", Trukk Rush" etc, but you can't tailor against all of them at once. Orks can always surprise their opponent, but never so much that they ruin the game. I think that, unless you're a predictable gamer, or are just starting out, people will never quite be certain of what you're bringing. I've usually found that this detachment from the meta is what you have to use to get the edge as orks.

I agree 100%. That has always been the best part of orks for me - I stopped playing them for awhile when green tide was the only viable strategy.

the_scotsman wrote:
Weird, I figured when you said: "First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away." you meant that the current iteration of the trakktor kannon should not exist.

In reality, it doesn't really make an enormous difference except to provide a powerful counter to one currently dominant meta trend.

Exactly, the current Traktor Kannon should have to roll to hit, not auto-hit. As I said, even if it gave a +2 to hit Flying Vehicles or was a flat/unmodified 2+ for that Grot gunner to hit is still a minor chance that something went wrong, the vehicle was moving too fast or whatever...

Morkphoiz wrote:
I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp, they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:

The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

Don’t start this discussion.
...but, the crux of the argument is that no other armies basic unit went UP in price, when they got “kultur”, stratagems, etc - except Orks.

The reality is, the entire ork army is paying for DDD for the few units that can actually use it.
The extra point ppm increase also killed a fun, and fluff, army list - green tide. That’s no longer viable because it’s so expensive.

If everyone else’s basic trooper goes up in points in CA2018, then sure, whatever; Orks can handle the 7ppm boy, is stead of 6.
But no other army pays for tactics and stratagems, none.

fe40k wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp, they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:

The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

Don’t start this discussion.
...but, the crux of the argument is that no other armies basic unit went UP in price, when they got “kultur”, stratagems, etc - except Orks.

The reality is, the entire ork army is paying for DDD for the few units that can actually use it.
The extra point ppm increase also killed a fun, and fluff, army list - green tide. That’s no longer viable because it’s so expensive.

If everyone else’s basic trooper goes up in points in CA2018, then sure, whatever; Orks can handle the 7ppm boy, is stead of 6.
But no other army pays for tactics and stratagems, none.

I mean, GK Terminators (one of their two troop choices) also went up in price.

Soooo...welcome to GK tier?

But seriously, the Ork Codex seems to be great fun. It's gonna take awhile to tease out the most optimized methods, but there's a lot of cute/cool/fun tools to play with in there.

The short answer to the OP is that your fears are unfounded.

Its way too early to say how strong the Ork codex is but if your entire local meta is controlled by one person I don't think its very representative of 'the meta'.

I suspect its the typical state of affairs when a codex is released with everyone looking at the strongest combos and believing them to be broken. I can tell you that Orks rely massively on stratagems to be effective so against DE they will struggle. DE are right at the top of the meta. I suspect things will settle and we'll end up a middle tier codex, hampered by our inability to soup and relatively singular play style.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

Its one shot for 45 points at S8 -2AP.
Its not that impressive. You need at least 2 if you want to have some real impact and reliable damage output..
If it weren't for the auto-hit it would be crap.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

Its one shot for 45 points at S8 -2AP.
Its not that impressive. You need at least 2 if you want to have some real impact and reliable damage output..
If it weren't for the auto-hit it would be crap.

You forgot the 1D6 damage. I don't think it's overpowered currently but I really need to see an "Ork Artillery" list in action first.

Let me start by saying this is my opinion and its only backed up by 6 or so games under the new codex against fairly competitive armies.

Morkphoiz wrote:
I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp,
they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:
The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

Just to rehash the basic point. Orkz are the only faction that had its BASIC (Sorry GK, but termies aren't basic) troops choice go up in price, and not only did it go up in price but it went up by 16.6%. So yay we get Dakkax3 now but its all but useless in most cases (Example 1: 30 Shoota boyz INDEX: = 3.33 dead Marines a turn or 54.05 ppw ((Points per Wound)), 30 Shoota Boyz CODEX: = 3.88 dead Marines a turn or 54.12 ppw ((Points Per Wound). In other words, it cancels out the cost increase. As far as Kultures go, again, no other faction had to pay for them except us apparently, with that in mind the kultures are very lopsided with Goffs, blood axes and snakebites being rather crap. Evil sunz is unarguably the best in the codex and not even for fast units, but because now you can make those OVER PRICED troops choices have a 8' charge on turn 1 instead of a 9' charge, it also helps team into the Codex: Deep Strike mindset that will be the only competitive build orkz have. As far as making units "Stronger" with CP, we are going to be HARD pressed for CP as it is because most of our units require CP to function at a remotely competitive level, and paying 2CP per unit to upgrade them from a 6+ save to a 5+ save is rather crap, NOW, if the strat let you upgrade ALL ork boyz to 'Ard Boyz for like 4-5 CP it would be something. Same thing for the Goff's S5 buff, at least that one is cheaper and adds to a specific play style but again with the +1ppm the boyz are no longer spammable like they were before which means you will be losing far too many before they get into CC where those buffs pay off.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
Orks are most certainly not a "deepstrike or die" army, unless you completely lack imagination imo. They are a combined-arms army, amazingly. A mix of tools to handle different opponents well. I prefer jumping/teleporting a mix of combat and shooting units to handle different threats and most importantly, control the board and objectives. Grots are cheap enough to screen a dedicated long-range support force - traktor kannons and lootas are perhaps the best for this. There is no auto-win or even mostly-win list in the new codex, which I prefer, but it is probable that they will mix up the local meta due to their flexibility and unpredictability.

Please give me another play style that you believe will be playable on the competitive scene, I am not talking about your local 8 person tournament at the FLGS where that one guy brings 300 Guardsmen because they are "Cool" I am talking about truly competitive games. I am not bashing friendly games I am merely trying to divide the two sides of the gaming hobby to help understand this point. Friendly gamers love this new codex because it has so many cool new units and the slight buff to crap units that lets them be more fun in their local games, Competitive players are slowly coming around to the fact that this is in fact "Codex: Deep Strike".

So far almost every list I have seen competitive players building or using in tournaments revolves around GROTS not boyz, that alone should tell you how bad that 1ppm nerf was. But add to that, they aren't even taking the units people were so excited about (the new buggies) they are taking Deep striking units, Kommandos are coming back into fashion....ironically though as Evil Sunz not Blood axes.




Now for my opinion on the codex in general.

I would give this Codex a C+ overall, it has a lot of fun options, a lot of units got better and a lot of fluff and love went into a lot of different aspects of it. But from a competitive standpoint its rather crap. Our units that needed the most love got little to none, our units that were good got nerfed and our units that were unplayable are still....unplayable (looking at you stompa). A lot of the issues with this codex revolve around points cost but that isn't the only part that is needing attention. Our combos right now and our ability to even field units are broken because of rules. Flashgitz being forced into a Kulture, unable to move and shoot without -1 to hit, can't be taken without a vehicle because they will die turn 1. Tankbustas requiring a transport, can't benefit from Strats while in that vehicle. Lootas still being utter crap, still dying to a stiff breeze, still requiring a vehicle as a bunker to even be remotely good.

Realistically the only reason any part of this codex is "Ok" is because of CP spamming stratagems. A lot of our "competitive" units would be in the trash pile if it wasn't for strats that you have to use to make them good. Overall this shows a lack of understanding of how the Ork codex plays and the only people to blame are GW.

One week in and already SemperMortis just knows it's competitively crap.

Audustum wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

Its one shot for 45 points at S8 -2AP.
Its not that impressive. You need at least 2 if you want to have some real impact and reliable damage output..
If it weren't for the auto-hit it would be crap.

You forgot the 1D6 damage. I don't think it's overpowered currently but I really need to see an "Ork Artillery" list in action first.

No, I didn't forget. All of the mek gun options are 1D6 damage.
Only the traktor cannon has 1 shot.

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
T8 spam is not only about bonebreakas, and boyz do not work only by teleporting them.

Like how? 180 boyz=1400 pts or so. Enemy shoots easily 60/turn. 3 turns, you are out of boys. That wasn't working in index withouyt slowplaying 2-3 turn games and with 1/6 price hike with no changes(if you don't deep strike)=dead meat.

It depends on the meta. I see a lot of tournaments lists that are basically "anti tank only or mostly" because of knights but also drukhari which are basically vehicles and monsters. Competitive games usually last 3 turns, since there are tournaments limitations but also because very competitive lists hit hard in the first turn and the game is usually over after 1-2 turns. Evil sunz boyz could work on foot, 90 of them maybe, not the full green tide which is dead IMHO.

tneva82 wrote:

Try 3x BW with rollas filled up with 18-19 boyz plus characters with evil sunz or even goffs kultur to get more punch. I think they're more versatile than 3x bonebreaks with elites or small units of boyz inside, unless you really own 30 nobz with choppas or big choppas. The nauts however are very very bland since they're still way overcosted.

Goff works for maybe 1 bw with ramming speed. Any more than that you are bleeding points. No 3d6 charge, no +1 to charge roll=you are not likely making charge and any unit failing charge is dead before doing anything. Also boys inside bw lose one of their big things which is +1A from having enough. Even if you were to have 20 they will lose 1 to overwatch or bw being blown apart.

Frankly if you take goff then you already admit you aren't taking competive list. Goffs is one of the worst clans orks have. Snakebites are worse off but that's about it.

As it is battlewagons themselves are not that good either. Trukks are better for elites generally. You don't generally need 20 strong mob anyway(tank bustas 15 strong and works with 12 anyway assuming you even want transport which isn't neccessarily even good idea). And rather than boys you should be looking at nobs for punch and again funnily enough both trukk is good enough or even better just deep strike them. It's not codex: tellyporta for nothing.

Goffs get more hits in combat and the Skarboyz stratagem makes boyz S5. You don't need 30 boyz to do something with their buffs. I agree about trukks but if I want to transport boyz and characters T8 wagons with 20 models inside are way better than trukks, which are amazing for elites but elies only. Nobz don't unlock CPs, and it's unlikely to have 30 of them with the desired loadout, a single full unit is something realistic.

I agree that they aren't the most effective kultur but if you want an assault oriented army is either evil sunz or goffs. Maybe even snakebites with their 6+ to everyone. The blood axe kultur looks the worst to me, it's too easy to deal with deep strikers and keeping too much points in reserve means that what's on the table get annihilated.

tneva82 wrote:

Shooty units like bustas and lootas are amazing with the kultur bonuses, but mek gunz and even flash gitz do their work as well.

None which are T8 or boys.

And?

tneva82 wrote:

A couple of the new buggies are also good, even if they're all overpriced.

Ummm...If something is overpriced it cannot be good. Overpriced is pretty much definition of bad and last time I checked bad is opposite meaning to good. Being good isn't just about stats but also cost. Otherwise I could say "warhound is good" even though it's one of the worst models in the game period. It's even worse than stompa and that's saying something! But at least with stompa opponent cannot bother to NOT shoot at all unlike with warhound where it would be insulting if opponent even bothers to roll shooting dice since he doesn't need to do that so it's just wasting everybody's time.

You are clearly looking at things from casual POV rather than competive.

No, overpriced means not optmized. It could mean that they do work but simply there are other options which are more effective.

I play every kind of game, from narrative to tournament lists. Sometimes even playing with friends using the worst units in the codex just to have fun with miniatures that never see the table. A game with two lists that aren't optimized at all could be way more challenging than playing with competitive lists. The word "competitive" also depends on many factors: the most important ones are the actual local meta and the eventual house rules in tournaments. Yes, house rules because not a single tournament in the world works with the real GW rules, the time limitation is the first example of that but not the only one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Its one shot for 45 points at S8 -2AP.
Its not that impressive. You need at least 2 if you want to have some real impact and reliable damage output..
If it weren't for the auto-hit it would be crap.

It's a good weapon but very meta dependant, as it always have been. I usually face a flyer in each game I play and the traktor can be good also against those armies that spam vehicles with the -1 to hit like Harlequins starweavers or Drukhari vernoms.

I was, again, surprised to see no entry for the Looted Vehicle. (Or not really surprised, seeing as GW likes the 'no model, no rules' policy and there is no specific 'looted vehicle' model.)

Then again, any Ork player worth his Fungal Beer 'n Teef could simply say that highly converted and suitably modified Leman Russ Battle Tank is now an Ork Gunwagon anyways. Aeldari Jetbikes with an extra engine with top propellor bolted on and an Ork Flyboy is undeniably a Deffkopta, a Rhino APC on wheels and with a Big Shoota Boy out the side door stands in nicely for a (Looted Vehicle) Trukk, etc. Especially in friendly games I have never found an opponent unwilling to play against the army that includes such conversions. Not sure about tournaments, but I don't attend those anyways.

Other than that, I think the Ork Codex looks fine enough. Haven't played a lot of games with it yet, but I have plenty Orks willin' to do some krumpin'.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I was, again, surprised to see no entry for the Looted Vehicle. (Or not really surprised, seeing as GW likes the 'no model, no rules' policy and there is no specific 'looted vehicle' model.)

They've been very clear for some time now that the rules will be in CA 2018.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I was, again, surprised to see no entry for the Looted Vehicle. (Or not really surprised, seeing as GW likes the 'no model, no rules' policy and there is no specific 'looted vehicle' model.)

They've been very clear for some time now that the rules will be in CA 2018.

Hope! We have Hope!

I really do hope we get some decent rules for them. As in, dedicated rules for how to loot a vehicle from another army, not a generic "looted Wagon"

Think about it; they're obsessed with sales, so saying it has the same stats as the model it's looted from, but with ork BS and a list of special rules which are removed if they're present (machine spirit etc), a reduction of points (say, 15-20 points less), lose D6 or D3 wounds before the game as it's already damaged, and have a rule like the old looted wagon that gives it a chance of not working properly (roll a D6, on a 1 it may not advance, on a 2 it's at -1 to shoot, 3+ it works normally) or something like that. Then people would be buying non-ork models and codexes to have a couple more models in their army.

There'd have to be limits - I recommend no walkers or titanic models.

Alternatively, just a selection of decently thought out looted tanks, like the classic looted leman russ, looted landraider, looted basalisk, looted deffstrike (that'll be fun...), etc. Maybe even have looted necron vehicles which have to have a weirdboy to keep it from phasing out - give us a challenge to model!

They already said the looted vehicles will be for open play only. Rules for people who play without rules

 lord_blackfang wrote:
They already said the looted vehicles will be for open play only. Rules for people who play without rules

Open and narrative, actually. Heck if they give even rules for giving it power level I'll take it, my opponents are casual enough that it won't matter to them.

I started saying it when the rumours came out...it's a really strong book. Extremely strong in many instances. If not a meta-toppling book, it's a good example of tremendous codex creep. It won't stop Ork players from complaining, but you will see some extremely stout performances in the tournament scene. If anything they're strong enough to be unfun to play in narrative or casual games with a strong build.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
One week in and already SemperMortis just knows it's competitively crap.

Basically a monobuild codex. Codex: Deep strike. The only choice is "What" do you want to deep strike. Boyz, Kommandos, stormboyz, vehicles. You can team that with a few bum rush Evil Sunz characters, most notably the Index warboss on a bike with the relic Klaw that will eat most vehicles including a Knight if he is given strats.

The monobuild doesn't make it crap it is the fact that this entire strategy can be defeated by common sense screening. I predict we will do fairly well in a few tournaments as the meta adjusts to ork players going from spamming 210+ infantry models to a handful comparatively and having over half the army being able to appear turn 2 anywhere on the battlefield via deepstrike/da jump shenanigans.

After they get used to it tournament players will invest a few more points into screens and that will be the end of it. Ironically, the top list in the game right now, Imperial soup will have less problems with this list because they already invest in screen units that act as CP batteries.

fe40k wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp, they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:

The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

Don’t start this discussion.
...but, the crux of the argument is that no other armies basic unit went UP in price, when they got “kultur”, stratagems, etc - except Orks.

The reality is, the entire ork army is paying for DDD for the few units that can actually use it.
The extra point ppm increase also killed a fun, and fluff, army list - green tide. That’s no longer viable because it’s so expensive.

If everyone else’s basic trooper goes up in points in CA2018, then sure, whatever; Orks can handle the 7ppm boy, is stead of 6.
But no other army pays for tactics and stratagems, none.

Tell me about it... the amount of times in the last 2 weeks I've made a list and was just 30pts off is starting to get to me... if boyz were always 7pts i wouldn't care but it's that thought that my list has gone up 90pts always nags me. Honestly, our green tide isn't too bad as I no longer pay for painboys so it balanced out overall but brining a combined arms still feels just slightly over priced (especially when in a 1,500 pts game your mate can bring a knight and a few russ's and you're debating if you really need that combiskorcha or not for 17pts.).

Also, no... CA will not out units up in points. They already made it clear on the live stream that boyz went up in points because of the tournament players bringing mass boyz and they want that to stop and for you to buy other things.

 lolman1c wrote:

fe40k wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp, they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:

The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

Don’t start this discussion.
...but, the crux of the argument is that no other armies basic unit went UP in price, when they got “kultur”, stratagems, etc - except Orks.

The reality is, the entire ork army is paying for DDD for the few units that can actually use it.
The extra point ppm increase also killed a fun, and fluff, army list - green tide. That’s no longer viable because it’s so expensive.

If everyone else’s basic trooper goes up in points in CA2018, then sure, whatever; Orks can handle the 7ppm boy, is stead of 6.
But no other army pays for tactics and stratagems, none.

Tell me about it... the amount of times in the last 2 weeks I've made a list and was just 30pts off is starting to get to me... if boyz were always 7pts i wouldn't care but it's that thought that my list has gone up 90pts always nags me. Honestly, our green tide isn't too bad as I no longer pay for painboys so it balanced out overall but brining a combined arms still feels just slightly over priced (especially when in a 1,500 pts game your mate can bring a knight and a few russ's and you're debating if you really need that combiskorcha or not for 17pts.).

Also, no... CA will not out units up in points. They already made it clear on the live stream that boyz went up in points because of the tournament players bringing mass boyz and they want that to stop and for you to buy other things.

Nerf boyz because some jackholes were slow playing and bringing 240 models to the table and making tournament games end top of turn 2 or turn 3. I would have been fine with that if they gave sufficient buffs to the boyz to make them worth the 17% (16.66%) increase they got, but they didnt. I have seen a lot of people argue that Dakkax3 is the reason they went up in price, but if you work out the points per wound boyz actually got WORSE at shooting per point with dakkax3 and the increase in cost to 7ppm. Then people claim the Klan rules are what made them go up in cost and again, that is nonsense because nobody else had that happen. If you really think boyz are worth 7ppm now than why are 90% of the lists I am seeing people build focus primarily on Grotz as the Troops choices instead of those Boyz who are now either as good or better then in the index?

As far as CA not raising prices on basic troops......I wouldn't be surprised. The fact that our Boyz now cost as much as a Firewarrior who has a 4+ save, 4+ BS and a range 30 S5 standard Rapid fire weapon is sad. And you have SM players actively calling for a price DROP in their Tactical Space Marines which would only exacerbate how bad boyz have become.

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

fe40k wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp, they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:

The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

Don’t start this discussion.
...but, the crux of the argument is that no other armies basic unit went UP in price, when they got “kultur”, stratagems, etc - except Orks.

The reality is, the entire ork army is paying for DDD for the few units that can actually use it.
The extra point ppm increase also killed a fun, and fluff, army list - green tide. That’s no longer viable because it’s so expensive.

If everyone else’s basic trooper goes up in points in CA2018, then sure, whatever; Orks can handle the 7ppm boy, is stead of 6.
But no other army pays for tactics and stratagems, none.

Tell me about it... the amount of times in the last 2 weeks I've made a list and was just 30pts off is starting to get to me... if boyz were always 7pts i wouldn't care but it's that thought that my list has gone up 90pts always nags me. Honestly, our green tide isn't too bad as I no longer pay for painboys so it balanced out overall but brining a combined arms still feels just slightly over priced (especially when in a 1,500 pts game your mate can bring a knight and a few russ's and you're debating if you really need that combiskorcha or not for 17pts.).

Also, no... CA will not out units up in points. They already made it clear on the live stream that boyz went up in points because of the tournament players bringing mass boyz and they want that to stop and for you to buy other things.

Nerf boyz because some jackholes were slow playing and bringing 240 models to the table and making tournament games end top of turn 2 or turn 3. I would have been fine with that if they gave sufficient buffs to the boyz to make them worth the 17% (16.66%) increase they got, but they didnt. I have seen a lot of people argue that Dakkax3 is the reason they went up in price, but if you work out the points per wound boyz actually got WORSE at shooting per point with dakkax3 and the increase in cost to 7ppm. Then people claim the Klan rules are what made them go up in cost and again, that is nonsense because nobody else had that happen. If you really think boyz are worth 7ppm now than why are 90% of the lists I am seeing people build focus primarily on Grotz as the Troops choices instead of those Boyz who are now either as good or better then in the index?

As far as CA not raising prices on basic troops......I wouldn't be surprised. The fact that our Boyz now cost as much as a Firewarrior who has a 4+ save, 4+ BS and a range 30 S5 standard Rapid fire weapon is sad. And you have SM players actively calling for a price DROP in their Tactical Space Marines which would only exacerbate how bad boyz have become.

Also the fact that boyz were a meme. Everyone told me boyz were op because they had 5+invuln, 6 attacks and 2+ WS.... ignoring how these were all expensive elite addons with some limited to specific kultures. Now, all these elites also went up in price (pain boyz especially bugs me as it's actually useless) devaluing boyz even more.

Ork players who think they have much that's over-costed are wildly out of touch with other codices which came before.

 Elbows wrote:
I started saying it when the rumours came out...it's a really strong book. Extremely strong in many instances. If not a meta-toppling book, it's a good example of tremendous codex creep. It won't stop Ork players from complaining, but you will see some extremely stout performances in the tournament scene. If anything they're strong enough to be unfun to play in narrative or casual games with a strong build.

I think some of the complaining will be if classic/fluffy builds are not viable. I've seen a lot of complaints that green tide took a huge hit and if that's the case I get the anger. A codex that is strong due to weird combos or strange rules interactions are something that I don't consider something to celebrate.

 Elbows wrote:
Ork players who think they have much that's over-costed are wildly out of touch with other codices which came before.

How about we wait on some tournament results before you start claiming some kind of high ground

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Ork players who think they have much that's over-costed are wildly out of touch with other codices which came before.

How about we wait on some tournament results before you start claiming some kind of high ground

I love how the 40k community have defined what people play as almolike a racial slur. Reminds me of "You Irish wouldn't know what a hards day work is!" My mum used to get told when she came to England. XD not like we're normal people who play more factions other than Orks. XD

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I started saying it when the rumours came out...it's a really strong book. Extremely strong in many instances. If not a meta-toppling book, it's a good example of tremendous codex creep. It won't stop Ork players from complaining, but you will see some extremely stout performances in the tournament scene. If anything they're strong enough to be unfun to play in narrative or casual games with a strong build.

I think some of the complaining will be if classic/fluffy builds are not viable. I've seen a lot of complaints that green tide took a huge hit and if that's the case I get the anger. A codex that is strong due to weird combos or strange rules interactions are something that I don't consider something to celebrate.

Nothing can be as boring as playing the index green tide. I celebrate the death of it.

In fact green tides could still do ok in real metas, thankfully we now have some different builts than aren't just spamming boyz. IMHO spamming boyz should be bringing 60-90 of them, not 180+ which is insane. This codex is not perfect but allows different combinations that actually work in any semi-competitive or casual meta. Before the codex orks sucked outside the green tide even in casual games. Tournaments lists, in each edition, are always 1-2 per faction. I wouldn't complain about orks getting just one combo that is more powerful than other ones, it's how 40k works at very competitive levels.

Meh, I'm hit and miss about it it... on the one hand I do love my fluffy 90 boyz, 90 gretchin, 20 nobz lists but at same time I run evil sunz so the nerfs don't affect me as I only bring 40 boyz is wagons. . Honestly, I don't think we should ever get angry at a person though being basically told by GW to buy new models just because they built a list that makes them happy... I specifically dislike buying new models unless they're new new (like recently came out). I have enough Orks and don't need many more.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
They've been very clear for some time now that the rules will be in CA 2018.

Which might still baffle / annoy / irk / surprise a lot of people, for they expected / hoped for / demanded this entry in the base Codex. The looted vehicle has always been a rather popular concept. They have the rules (ready to be printed, if they CA 2018 isn't already taking up shelf space in a warehouse ready to be distributed). In a way they have the models.