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Okay... hear me out though.... a Snake bites Mek gun list... Their 3cp +1 to wound rolls doesn't actually target the mek guns so they can still benefit from it.... also it lasts the whole phase so can work on all the mek gunz...

 Trimarius wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, they are 31 points each in total.
That's roughly half the cost of a KMK Mek Gun (60 points). Two of them are 62 points and are slightly more efficient against the targets you want the KMK to go against.
If they were 36 points then it wouldn't be as cost effective, as you'd be paying 72 points for a marginal increase in damage.
Its an internal balance thing, not external balance.

The issue is that they are both designed to do the same thing, so one of them is going to end up more efficient in the "general" sense.

Except they aren't though.
Smasha Gunz are supposed to be more effective against infantry, hence the 2d6 compare to toughness rule. The Smasha Gun has a higher wound chance against T1-T6 than the KMK, and the same against T7.
KMK are supposed to be more effective against vehicles.
The problem is that the smasha gun ends up being more effective than the KMK at fighting what the KMK is supposed to be good at, because you can buy 2 Smasha Gunz for the price of a KMK and they can engage the same targets just as effectively because of the extra AP on the smasha gun.
Why would you take KMK if you can take Smasha gunz for the same job and get more wounds out of it for just 2 extra points?

If anything, KMK should be -4AP and Smasha Gunz should be -3AP. That might reflect their roles a little better.
-4 Ap on a 16pt gun is just absurd.

And besides, if two weapons are meant to do the same thing, but one of them is more efficient, that's not a good thing. That's bad internal balance.

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

Yeah - it's pretty nutts that orks went from worst army vs knights to a hard counter....just like that.

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

But how though? Don't knights have a lot of anti-infantry firepower?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

But how though? Don't knights have a lot of anti-infantry firepower?

Not enough. Remember it's only 4 or 5 models, which still need to hit and wound. Now knights will need to take more and more guardsmen to wrap...just in time for that sweet, sweet price increase from CA.

If knights do drop off the meta, and with GSC up next, expect the meta to become mega-wrap with anti-infantry backfields. Perhaps SOB will form a nice niche there when they come out. Could it be GW planned it this way?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

But how though? Don't knights have a lot of anti-infantry firepower?

Not enough. Remember it's only 4 or 5 models, which still need to hit and wound. Now knights will need to take more and more guardsmen to wrap...just in time for that sweet, sweet price increase from CA.

If knights do drop off the meta, and with GSC up next, expect the meta to become mega-wrap with anti-infantry backfields. Perhaps SOB will form a nice niche there when they come out. Could it be GW planned it this way?

If any question you're asking has to do with "did GW plan the competitive meta to fall out the way it did" the answer is pretty much always "no, no they did not."

Don't fool yourself that GW suddenly cares at all about competitive gaming. They want to put in the very bare minimum effort required to make the most vehement screeching from the competitive scene go away, so they've hired one or two people to periodically poke the top tier meta with a small stick once in a while.

It's the tried and true e-sports video game balance strategy, and it's working exactly as intended for them.

That's really not it. Typically when you make an army best at everything in the game. It counters the meta.

It's just power creep. Power creep does exist in video games like LOL too. It's why they only have 20-30 viable picks out of almost 200 champions in LOL. That is not the model GW should take like this. 40k is a game where every model should be viable. Cause the customer paid for the model.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except they aren't though.
Smasha Gunz are supposed to be more effective against infantry, hence the 2d6 compare to toughness rule. The Smasha Gun has a higher wound chance against T1-T6 than the KMK, and the same against T7.
KMK are supposed to be more effective against vehicles.
The problem is that the smasha gun ends up being more effective than the KMK at fighting what the KMK is supposed to be good at, because you can buy 2 Smasha Gunz for the price of a KMK and they can engage the same targets just as effectively because of the extra AP on the smasha gun.
Why would you take KMK if you can take Smasha gunz for the same job and get more wounds out of it for just 2 extra points?

If anything, KMK should be -4AP and Smasha Gunz should be -3AP. That might reflect their roles a little better.
-4 Ap on a 16pt gun is just absurd.

And besides, if two weapons are meant to do the same thing, but one of them is more efficient, that's not a good thing. That's bad internal balance.

How is low volume of fire, high "strength" (it works out to be between S7 and S8), high AP, high damage Smasha an anti-infantry weapon? They're both pretty obviously anti-tank weapons, which puts them in direct competition with each other. They should have had different niches, I'll agree, any time you have two units that do the same thing in the same way, there's going to be one that's the better choice.

You really shouldn't use the cost of the gun alone though, as the carriage doesn't do anything but hold the gun, be easy to kill, and prevent you from using strats/kultures (and you can't take the gun elsewhere). It's a crucial distinction, as the whole package needs to be considered (and someone will inevitably point out the 0 pt superheavy weapons).

Togusa wrote:

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

Would you mind filling us in on what happened and what the lists roughly looked like? The knights should have been able to shoot anything of value off the board, mow down plenty of boyz with the rest of their shooting, then tap dance on the leftovers that made it into combat without too much fear of taking damage before backing up and repeating every turn.

Was it something the knight player just hadn't seen before, like Da Jumped Skarboys and tricked out biker bosses getting turn one charges that he didn't know to screen for?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

Yeah - it's pretty nutts that orks went from worst army vs knights to a hard counter....just like that.

how many boyz did he bring and under what kulture? Would be interesting to note. Greentide for me means just mass Ork boyz, warboss and mek or weirdboy. Anything fancier starts to become more a mechanised or elite ork list.

Because of its special weapon effect? If its better against things that are below T8, then logically it should be used against things that are below T8. The only reason why it wins out is because of -4AP, which shouldn't go on a weapon with that price. Even at 31 points its still strong.
I think its intended to be used against light vehicles and small multi-wound units, with the KMK being against heavier targets.
The D3 is strange though. I think the idea was to limit its power in that it only can have a max of 3 shots, but since they are nearly half the cost of a KMK it evens out. Except slightly better because with 2 smashas you can have 2-6 shots, whereas with 1 kmk you get 1-6 shots. Which I don't think is good internal balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That's really not it. Typically when you make an army best at everything in the game. It counters the meta.

It's just power creep. Power creep does exist in video games like LOL too. It's why they only have 20-30 viable picks out of almost 200 champions in LOL. That is not the model GW should take like this. 40k is a game where every model should be viable. Cause the customer paid for the model.

85/141 champions in league of legends were played at this year's world championship. Kind of like how in 40k, the number of factions that appear in tournament play is a whole lot higher than people who like to complain about how unviable their army is tend to like to claim.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

Yeah - it's pretty nutts that orks went from worst army vs knights to a hard counter....just like that.

how many boyz did he bring and under what kulture? Would be interesting to note. Greentide for me means just mass Ork boyz, warboss and mek or weirdboy. Anything fancier starts to become more a mechanised or elite ork list.

All you need is Tank bustas and skar boys really. Both drop knights without much effort. OFC Tank bustas are easy to kill - but if they strike first it's GG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That's really not it. Typically when you make an army best at everything in the game. It counters the meta.

It's just power creep. Power creep does exist in video games like LOL too. It's why they only have 20-30 viable picks out of almost 200 champions in LOL. That is not the model GW should take like this. 40k is a game where every model should be viable. Cause the customer paid for the model.

85/141 champions in league of legends were played at this year's world championship. Kind of like how in 40k, the number of factions that appear in tournament play is a whole lot higher than people who like to complain about how unviable their army is tend to like to claim.

Nah - that is a totally misleading statistic. If it wasn't for bans the it would be the same 20-30 champions being played at the top. Really the top 10 of those 30 are so unbelieably OP they are play ban or lose. I really don't want 40k to take this route.

Plus - in 40k we don't have bans. It would be great if I could just ban out Smash guns and boys when playing orks or ban ynnari before playing eldar - but we can't do that.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

But how though? Don't knights have a lot of anti-infantry firepower?

When you flood the board with 140+ boyz all with a 6++ save and a reroll for each unit, the knights were overrun with targets to shoot at. It didn't matter if he killed a squad of boyz or a battlewagon with one volly, there were 6 more to take their place. Our local WAAC Knight player conceeded at the end of turn two with only a castellan at full health and two armigeirs at half health left on the table.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Orks have yet to win, because its been out for a week. We will see what happens at LVO.

I don't agree with grandiose statements, but this codex WILL change up lists.

Possibly. Possibly not. Even of Orks perform well at LVO it won't prove that the codex is 'OP'. Could be any number of reasons (like Ork players have had to eke put any advantage without a dex for the last 18 months, making us more competitive players by virtue of having no choice).

Either way I'm struggling to see why this is a bad thing? Surely codex releases absolutely should shake up the meta? Aren't we bored of the Ynarri/Knight+IG+SM lists winning each and every event.

Those claiming 'Orks won before they had their dex though' are being completely disingenuous. I'd love to know how many events Orks have won since IG was released or since IK were released. *Gets real close to xeno, uncomfortably close* *whispers* Vanilla Marines have won more events.

E - As much as I love these anecdotal stories about how the best player in store x was beaten to a pulp by Orks its probably best you wait until we have data from events to back up these honkers statements. Unless your friend happens to be Nick Nanavati or another proven excellent player (in which case name them).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

Yeah - it's pretty nutts that orks went from worst army vs knights to a hard counter....just like that.

how many boyz did he bring and under what kulture? Would be interesting to note. Greentide for me means just mass Ork boyz, warboss and mek or weirdboy. Anything fancier starts to become more a mechanised or elite ork list.

All you need is Tank bustas and skar boys really. Both drop knights without much effort. OFC Tank bustas are easy to kill - but if they strike first it's GG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That's really not it. Typically when you make an army best at everything in the game. It counters the meta.

It's just power creep. Power creep does exist in video games like LOL too. It's why they only have 20-30 viable picks out of almost 200 champions in LOL. That is not the model GW should take like this. 40k is a game where every model should be viable. Cause the customer paid for the model.

85/141 champions in league of legends were played at this year's world championship. Kind of like how in 40k, the number of factions that appear in tournament play is a whole lot higher than people who like to complain about how unviable their army is tend to like to claim.

Nah - that is a totally misleading statistic. If it wasn't for bans the it would be the same 20-30 champions being played at the top. Really the top 10 of those 30 are so unbelieably OP they are play ban or lose. I really don't want 40k to take this route.

Plus - in 40k we don't have bans. It would be great if I could just ban out Smash guns and boys when playing orks or ban ynnari before playing eldar - but we can't do that.

Yeah, you only need - let's see - 47 tankbustas, so I suppose you could do it with one max-sized squad shooting twice with the bad moonz stratagem and then another max-sized squad shooting once. You probably want to deep strike both squads, so that's 4CP, and 2cp for the shoot twice strat. So, just as long as you spend 6CP and commit 510 points on a unit that is the following turn a total of 30 T4 6+ bodies sitting on the field, you can one-round a knight.

Well, as long as they don't use their 3++ strat to deny the kill, but I've never heard of people running knights doing that!

And if you want to do it with skarboyz, you only need 44 of them fighting twice to take one down - well, you can spend 2cp to make two units skarboyz, 1cp to combine a squad of 30 with a squad of 10, 3CP to fight twice, and with just a little bit of luck, blammo, that's one dead knight for only 280 points and 6CP! As long as you make the charge and don't lose any boyz to overwatch, or lose first turn and your opponent realizes where you're going with those 40 skarboyz and decides to take them out, or screen.

Those knights lists are screwed now boy howdy!

 Togusa wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

Greentide isn't dead. I watched it smash the crap out of our most competitive player this past weekend. His knights went undefeated for nearly 4 months until now.

But how though? Don't knights have a lot of anti-infantry firepower?

When you flood the board with 140+ boyz all with a 6++ save and a reroll for each unit, the knights were overrun with targets to shoot at. It didn't matter if he killed a squad of boyz or a battlewagon with one volly, there were 6 more to take their place. Our local WAAC Knight player conceeded at the end of turn two with only a castellan at full health and two armigeirs at half health left on the table.

What a wimp! The guy had almost 1k points available! I've seen people soldier on until there was 1 guy left!

No but seriously, I tend to fight a lot of teslas and punisher autocannons and those thing take out a horde a turn! A knight player could happily give up a Castellan and throw in two punishers and would probably be fine. However, saying that I do feel there should be a viable anti unit knight because I feel bad when gw basically tells a player to buy a new army of GTFO.


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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Orks have yet to win, because its been out for a week. We will see what happens at LVO.

I don't agree with grandiose statements, but this codex WILL change up lists.

Possibly. Possibly not. Even of Orks perform well at LVO it won't prove that the codex is 'OP'. Could be any number of reasons (like Ork players have had to eke put any advantage without a dex for the last 18 months, making us more competitive players by virtue of having no choice).

Either way I'm struggling to see why this is a bad thing? Surely codex releases absolutely should shake up the meta? Aren't we bored of the Ynarri/Knight+IG+SM lists winning each and every event.

Those claiming 'Orks won before they had their dex though' are being completely disingenuous. I'd love to know how many events Orks have won since IG was released or since IK were released. *Gets real close to xeno, uncomfortably close* *whispers* Vanilla Marines have won more events.

E - As much as I love these anecdotal stories about how the best player in store x was beaten to a pulp by Orks its probably best you wait until we have data from events to back up these honkers statements. Unless your friend happens to be Nick Nanavati or another proven excellent player (in which case name them).

I, for the most part, ignore tournaments. Grey Knights won a tournament recently... I find the best place to see how strong an army is is to watch battle reports on youtube. There you get experienced players who play strong lists but not cheese or over competitive lists. So far I've watched games where Orks get absolutely thrashed. I've seen games where the Ork player barely pulled through, I've seen draws and I've seen games where the Ork player decimates an opponent. To me, this tells me that the Ork codex is an improvement but isn't OP pls nerf... (I think warhammer TV is a good place to see how poor Orks can really be ) While someone like Scorpian can show you how good they can be (if you get lucky).

I'd like to note... 40k is also a game based on luck... you can deep strike 90 boyz turn 2 for all I care but I've seen people roll like 9 ones in a row. XD

the_scotsman wrote:
Those knights lists are screwed now boy howdy!

There are ways to do it with the Ork codex and still have a viable unit that can do something afterwards, but nobody here has mentioned them. It's also an absurdly expensive gamble that costs way more than a Castellan. As usual the argument here is unwinnable, nobody's opinion is going to actually change, regardless of the data provided. Everyone lives in a universe of their own facts.

the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, you only need - let's see - 47 tankbustas, so I suppose you could do it with one max-sized squad shooting twice with the bad moonz stratagem and then another max-sized squad shooting once. You probably want to deep strike both squads, so that's 4CP, and 2cp for the shoot twice strat. So, just as long as you spend 6CP and commit 510 points on a unit that is the following turn a total of 30 T4 6+ bodies sitting on the field, you can one-round a knight.

Well, as long as they don't use their 3++ strat to deny the kill, but I've never heard of people running knights doing that!

And if you want to do it with skarboyz, you only need 44 of them fighting twice to take one down - well, you can spend 2cp to make two units skarboyz, 1cp to combine a squad of 30 with a squad of 10, 3CP to fight twice, and with just a little bit of luck, blammo, that's one dead knight for only 280 points and 6CP! As long as you make the charge and don't lose any boyz to overwatch, or lose first turn and your opponent realizes where you're going with those 40 skarboyz and decides to take them out, or screen.

Those knights lists are screwed now boy howdy!

Strong bants this.

I suggest those of you panicking about the green tide or any other Ork list take a moment and consider the numbers.

Traktor Cannons, though hyper popular, are not really that scary when you consider their cost and damage potential.

E - lolman the tournament that Grey Knights won was mono faction event too, which makes their victory even more interesting. Orks came third I think

LOL @ marines winning events - you guys really are delusional.

All other things aside, does anyone else really just want to see the_scotsman fight An Actual Englishman?

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL @ marines winning events - you guys really are delusional.

This is the fun thing about the tournaments. You can name any old one and claim that the faction that won it is OP pls nerf.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
All other things aside, does anyone else really just want to see the_scotsman fight An Actual Englishman?

Yes. As nature intended it.

E -

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL @ marines winning events - you guys really are delusional.

You might want to sit down in preparation for this mind shattering news. According to actual stats they’ve been performing better than Orks, Necrons, GSC, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Renegade Knights, GK (duh) and Deathwatch. Slightly below Ad Mech and Blood Angels.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
There are ways to do it with the Ork codex and still have a viable unit that can do something afterwards, but nobody here has mentioned them. It's also an absurdly expensive gamble that costs way more than a Castellan. As usual the argument here is unwinnable, nobody's opinion is going to actually change, regardless of the data provided. Everyone lives in a universe of their own facts.

You're talking about the Loota bomb, and if you don't go first you get straight bodied by indirect fire or any anti-infantry shooting for that matter if you deploy them visible.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
All other things aside, does anyone else really just want to see the_scotsman fight An Actual Englishman?

Yes. As nature intended it.

E -

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL @ marines winning events - you guys really are delusional.

You might want to sit down in preparation for this mind shattering news. According to actual stats they’ve been performing better than Orks, Necrons, GSC, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Renegade Knights, GK (duh) and Deathwatch. Slightly below Ad Mech and Blood Angels.

Yep, as i said with orks. Tournaments need context. Just because ultramarines or ravenguard do well doesn't mean all marine players have an OP army. Just because imperial guard wins a tournament doesn't mean every imperial guard player takes Gold Mehriens and Blood Angels. Orks won a few tournaments because of primary cheese, tactics and slow play.

I mean heck, if we look at tournaments (places that should have the best players in the world) to determine how strong an army is then you make anything look bad or good. Also, by doing this you're also dramatically underestimating the skill of the players who have control over these factions. A skilled man with paintball gun can tag everyone in a room, that doesn't mean the person he tagged with a nuke doesn't have an over powered weapon in his hands.


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PuppetSoul wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
There are ways to do it with the Ork codex and still have a viable unit that can do something afterwards, but nobody here has mentioned them. It's also an absurdly expensive gamble that costs way more than a Castellan. As usual the argument here is unwinnable, nobody's opinion is going to actually change, regardless of the data provided. Everyone lives in a universe of their own facts.

You're talking about the Loota bomb, and if you don't go first you get straight bodied by indirect fire or any anti-infantry shooting for that matter if you deploy them visible.

The fact with Lootas is that (being T4 6+ save) you could have easily had 40pts worth of IG take down half your fire power. That's why we expected a points drop for them... but they didn't seem to get it and people still seem to be ignoring them. Which is funny because the Deff Skullz are kinda powerful.

This video here is a good example of orks right now (I would say this army is about the average Ork army owned by a player):


They're a little better than they used to be but not OP pls nerf.

PuppetSoul wrote:
You're talking about the Loota bomb, and if you don't go first you get straight bodied by indirect fire or any anti-infantry shooting for that matter if you deploy them visible.

I'm not, don't worry about it, it's entirely theoretical anyways, and not terribly important.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL @ marines winning events - you guys really are delusional.

You cant cite orks winning a tournament with an index (which that playstyle doesnt work anymore due to chess clocks) and disregard marines winning a tournament at the same time


Anyways, Orks are probably going to be strong, but I dont think theyre going to be brokenly OP like we have seen knight soup be. Gotta wait for multiple tournament results to see.

the_scotsman wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I started saying it when the rumours came out...it's a really strong book. Extremely strong in many instances. If not a meta-toppling book, it's a good example of tremendous codex creep. It won't stop Ork players from complaining, but you will see some extremely stout performances in the tournament scene. If anything they're strong enough to be unfun to play in narrative or casual games with a strong build.

I think it might actually be meta toppling. Traktor kannons, turn 1 charges with durable units, and 3D6 charges with T8 vehicles out of deepstrike presents difficult problems for many lists.

 sfshilo wrote:
This is the strongest codex so far and it's going to pan out in the ITC circuit.

An already decent index army got totally pimped out. Glad there is an "opt out of combat" option in the ITC rules, figuring out 30+ models worth of dice will be a pain lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's hands down the best codex released so far. The power creep is real.

Lol.

Orks have yet to win anything of note but so many of you are convinced that the codex is the best of this edition

Meanwhile IG, Knights, a type of Marine and various Aeldari have been dominating the meta for months and people have defended each and every one of those factions.

Don't ever change dakka.

Perhaps wait until you have some evidence to back up these wild claims?

Orks won major events without a codex. We are able to READ and do some pretty simple math to understand how good this codex is.

This codex will have to be nerfed, it is as good meta wise as the 7th ed Tau codex. Which EVERYONE told me was not overpowered just like you are saying now about this ork codex.

A simple test is just the power level. Nearly every 2000 point list I make is clocking in at 120 power level........that is nuts.

wait...what? You gauge the competitiveness of a list based on the power level of units you can take at a given points level?

I am so confused here. Do you know how power levels work in relation to wargear? Because the following is a 200PL list:

Primaris Chaplain
Primaris Chaplain
6x Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns
6x Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns
6x Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns
6x Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns
6x Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns
6x Deathwatch Veterans with boltguns
6x Terminators with Powerfist and Storm Bolter
6x Terminators with Powerfist and Storm Bolter
6x Terminators with Powerfist and Storm Bolter
4x Bikers with boltguns
4x Bikers with boltguns
4x Bikers with boltguns

2000pts, 198 power. Have I shattered the competitive 40k meta? That power level is OvErNiNeThOuSaNd!!!!

Okay, have an exalt, I almost spit out my drink with that.

the_scotsman wrote:


If any question you're asking has to do with "did GW plan the competitive meta to fall out the way it did" the answer is pretty much always "no, no they did not."

Don't fool yourself that GW suddenly cares at all about competitive gaming. They want to put in the very bare minimum effort required to make the most vehement screeching from the competitive scene go away, so they've hired one or two people to periodically poke the top tier meta with a small stick once in a while.

It's the tried and true e-sports video game balance strategy, and it's working exactly as intended for them.

I can agree with your first statement. The rest is just pure baseless conjecture.

Loved this battle report here. Joke is the index options are actually pretty good with all the new traits. Shame a lot of events don't allow them anymore. XD


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


If any question you're asking has to do with "did GW plan the competitive meta to fall out the way it did" the answer is pretty much always "no, no they did not."

Don't fool yourself that GW suddenly cares at all about competitive gaming. They want to put in the very bare minimum effort required to make the most vehement screeching from the competitive scene go away, so they've hired one or two people to periodically poke the top tier meta with a small stick once in a while.

It's the tried and true e-sports video game balance strategy, and it's working exactly as intended for them.

I can agree with your first statement. The rest is just pure baseless conjecture.

It's not baseless. I've spoken to a few employees of older Gw and read some articles from higher ups (so might have changed now as it was 5 years go). It seems like most the rule writers despised the tournament scene but the marketing department love it and pushed for it.