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Ok, bye then.
And no, no female Orks for 2020. Just use greenstuff.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ok, bye then.
And no, no female Orks for 2020. Just use greenstuff.

This. I'm not opposed to having people design their own unique armies to what they personally want to see aesthetically. But to impose it over an entire faction when there's never been a precedent, art, model or fluff-wise, smacks of pandering and change for change's sake. It doesn't add anything significant and it wastes effort that should be brought to more gender variety for factions that should have it, aka the majority of the human/aelf/maybe even duardin factions.

*shrug* Without change, nothing new develops. And the entire reason I play GW games is because I thought they were cool. If I didn’t find them cool, I never would have started in the first place!

There have been so many cool things that GW have released over the years, I wouldn’t know where to begin. Stagnation is not my cup of tea.

The release of the Chaos Terminator with Reaper Autocannon got me into 40k. Without that advertisement in a White Dwarf, I may have never started playing 40k. Something new, with no previous model, started my love (mostly) of the game.

For me, something new and exciting should exist on its own merit. If the model looks cool it should be a part of the game. I think Orc women would be a cool addition. I get that other people have no interest in it. In hypothetical land, those people wouldn’t buy such models. I probably would.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yet they are clearly represented as masculine.

And I repeat. How? What makes them masculine in gender?

Multiple references over the years to "Gettin' kicked in the danglies'.

Still, if female Orcs are a huge need then must be people are clamoring for female Saurus and Skinks, too. Unless of course both these races are fine the way they are, with no need for sexual equality to completely change their racial back stories.

Because then we all need female Gors, Ungors, and minotaurs, too.

And female Goblins and Runtlings. Trolls?

 greatbigtree wrote:
While Fajita has made a difficult to refute point, I would also be cool with Cthulu’s Octopi Undead.

I would think that of all people, adding Cthulhu inspired undead would float your boat! At least then the aqua elves would have a reason to gtfo of the sea, and wage war on the air breathers.

I’d like Orc women for the same reason octundead would do it for me. It would be cool! Just because they haven’t existed before, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. I disliked the stagnant background of both WHFB and 40K. I like that they’re moving forward and that new things are happening. I like change. I guess I should have played Tzeentch or something.

New faction, or an addition to an old one. New models are neat. More variety is neat. I have no personal interest in Undead armies, but I’d totally be down with playing against drowned pirates or something like that. The fluff is inspiring to me, not restrictive.

My "no" was meant for female orcs, not anything about the undead. Orcs in the fluff are made from like fungus or something and don't reproduce so the concept of gender for them is meaningless. They're not male or female, they're just orcs or orks.

Now I'm totally in favor of female human or eldar or even tau models and I don't want them proportioned like Playmate comic book characters either. I'd be totally in favor of female models with realistic proportions to add variety to units like IG or something. Just not orcs or orks. Waaaagh.

Female guard, human soldiers, elves and Eldar etc. just make sense. They fit thematically with those factions because the focus of those factions is on something other than brute physicality, whether that be innumerable ranks of troops, agility, or what have you. Factions like Orc(k)s and Space Marines, on the other hand, are supposed to be representative of the pinnacle of athleticism, strength and martial prowess, and those are just simply masculine traits. Orcs don't even have a sex, yet they are perceived as masculine for just that reason. Female Orcs would also have to portray those masculine traits rather than being representative of the feminine. In real life, women just can't compete with men on a physical level. That's not a political statement, it's biological reality. There's a reason professional sports are divided by gender, and it's not discrimination. It's because no one wants to watch Serena Williams get beat by the 100th best male tennis player or Rhonda Rousey lose in the first round to a male MMA fighter. There's nothing wrong with Serena Williams or Rhonda Rousey, they just don't have the same body structure that their male counterparts do and they never will, even if you put them on steroids. It's pure physics. No amount of social constructivism is ever going to make that reality or the stereotypes it engenders go away, any more than decrying gravity will give humans the power of unassisted flight.

That being said, I wouldn't be against the idea of female Orcs or whatever if they embodied the same traditionally masculine traits that Orcs do, but at that point you have to ask what the point is. Giving women a way to identify with orcs is a bad answer. Humans are not like Orcs, but human women even less so. Your average woman isn't going to identify with green-skinned football hooligans who live to eat squigs and chop stuff with improvised axes. Giving Orcs identifiable sex organs isn't going to change that, because people are more than their private bits. Most female gamers I know play factions that are the hardest to identify with in a human way, such as Tyranid or Death, because xenomorphs and skellies are what they find cool as individuals, not because they can point to reproductive organs on a model and proudly proclaim they are operating with the same equipment. Putting tits on a platypus and expecting a woman to suddenly identify with marsupials is frankly ludicrous and somewhat insulting. It's like patting them on the head and congratulating them for doing such a great job of being born female. See, we put tits on a platypus to show you how proud and accepting of you we are because you have tits!

Aesthetic variation would be a good answer if variation from brute physicality didn't inherently violate the aesthetic themes and principles that Orcs are based on in the first place. Again, you could simply give your typically muscle-bound Orc visible cleavage and call it a day, but is there really a demand for that? I don't exactly have hard evidence but I doubt that most people who are attracted to a stereotypically masculine faction have a yearning to make that faction more feminine just because. And I presume that includes a majority of female Orc players.

Besides, can you imagine the offense that would be caused by stereotypically masculine Orcs aping female traits like some thoughtless parody of drag culture? Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean your actions won't cause injury to someone, and it doesn't guarantee results. That's why "just because" is a perfectly valid reason for your own models, but not for someone else's creative property or business.

If you have heard the call of the WAAAAAGH it's becus you wanta git stuck in wit da BOYZ! Don't deprive yourself of that privilege, nor any female gamer who wants to do exactly the same!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:That said, perhaps the octopus was not a good example, as I did just remember there was something called the Vampire Coast in the WHFB world, which was basically inhabited by Undead pirates. You could use that as a base for something, throw a bunch of voodoo or just rip off Pirates of the Caribbean.
So there is something of a precedent for that at least, more than female orcs anyway. It would also me more interesting; entire army of undead pirates and friends, based off of an barely developed bit of lore from WHFB, or orcs that have suddenly grown tits for reasons, that they don't even need because orcs aren't mammals.

Total Warhammer 2 just released DLC on those guys, actually.

AegisGrimm wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yet they are clearly represented as masculine.

And I repeat. How? What makes them masculine in gender?

Multiple references over the years to "Gettin' kicked in the danglies'.

So how is that masculine for such an alien specie? Just because it is masculine for humans doesn't mean it is masculine for orcs.

If anything, we've seen orks adapt due to their experiences on the battlefield, and GW has done little to dissuade us as this is a factor for the Greenskins of Old World/Sigmar.

In all seriousness, in order to properly define a feminine, you have to determine a masculine. How do you determine a male dog, a male ant, or a male mushroom? Not all such distinguishing features are representable on everything. Heck, for all we know what we see on the Greenskins IS the feminine features for their race.

 Charistoph wrote:

AegisGrimm wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yet they are clearly represented as masculine.

And I repeat. How? What makes them masculine in gender?

Multiple references over the years to "Gettin' kicked in the danglies'.

So how is that masculine for such an alien specie? Just because it is masculine for humans doesn't mean it is masculine for orcs.

I'm pretty sure Niiai means "masculine for us humans". Orks do indeed have masculine traits, as we humans understand the concept.

In all seriousness, in order to properly define a feminine, you have to determine a masculine. How do you determine a male dog, a male ant, or a male mushroom? Not all such distinguishing features are representable on everything. Heck, for all we know what we see on the Greenskins IS the feminine features for their race.

Because unless your a breeders, the gender of any of those would matter not. Having female orcs is like taking females to hooligan brawls. It wouldn't make sense.

So how is that masculine for such an alien specie? Just because it is masculine for humans doesn't mean it is masculine for orcs.

Face, muscle mass of the upper body, no female orcs in the lore or at least not in the one I could find. That is enough.

If anything, we've seen orks adapt due to their experiences on the battlefield, and GW has done little to dissuade us as this is a factor for the Greenskins of Old World/Sigmar.

Am not sure how that should help the argument in favour of female orcs. In brawl situations among bi peds males have most of the adventages. A group orcs that would for some reason turn in to females, or even become less male, would just be picked off by those orcs who stayed man.

Grey Templar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

AegisGrimm wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yet they are clearly represented as masculine.

And I repeat. How? What makes them masculine in gender?

Multiple references over the years to "Gettin' kicked in the danglies'.

So how is that masculine for such an alien specie? Just because it is masculine for humans doesn't mean it is masculine for orcs.

I'm pretty sure Niiai means "masculine for us humans". Orks do indeed have masculine traits, as we humans understand the concept.

As we understand the concept FOR HUMANS. Orks aren't human. Warhammer Orks aren't even animals. So you are humanizing an alien species and expect them to have the same standards as we do. Keep in mind, that even in the mammal class, we don't all have the same sexual dimorphisms, and that's assuming you're actually speaking of sexual traits as opposed to social gendering which is an entirely different subject. If an asexual being has dangly spore positers, how does that make it masculine?

And even then, you're not really answering the question.

Karol wrote:

In all seriousness, in order to properly define a feminine, you have to determine a masculine. How do you determine a male dog, a male ant, or a male mushroom? Not all such distinguishing features are representable on everything. Heck, for all we know what we see on the Greenskins IS the feminine features for their race.

Because unless your a breeders, the gender of any of those would matter not. Having female orcs is like taking females to hooligan brawls. It wouldn't make sense.

It really depends on the female. Some of those ladies be crazy.

Breeders indicates either a morphism of totally dedicated generation, closer to an insect queen, or part of a sexual grouping dedicated for production. Males can be breeders as much as males. In fact, many prize male race horses become breeders. It is part of that whole "put out to pasture" concept. Don't even get me started on how much breeding soldiers do while away from home, either.

I think you're confusing breeder with brooder. Now, in the mammalian class, females tend to be brooders, but we have examples in the animal kingdom where the males tend to be the brooders. They provide the sperm, and then watch the kids while mommy goes off and does her thing. Only problem being that aside from a primitive intellect, we have every indication that Orcs aren't even animals, so until we have information as such, we can't use any animal standard to make such judgements on.

Orks don't breed, they release spores while aroused for combat. GW has given indications that the Sigmar Orcs are little different.

Karol wrote:

So how is that masculine for such an alien specie? Just because it is masculine for humans doesn't mean it is masculine for orcs.

Face, muscle mass of the upper body, no female orcs in the lore or at least not in the one I could find. That is enough.

So, you're applying human concepts to an alien specie. Just because no orc has been observed with human female sex characteristics does not necessarily indicate that all we see are masculine. 99% of the ants you see will be sterile females. Did you assume that you were stepping on a bunch of boyz when you trod on an ant hill?

Not to mention, someone was speaking of "gender" of which is supposed to be sociological, and it is those characteristics I was requesting.

Karol wrote:

If anything, we've seen orks adapt due to their experiences on the battlefield, and GW has done little to dissuade us as this is a factor for the Greenskins of Old World/Sigmar.

Am not sure how that should help the argument in favour of female orcs. In brawl situations among bi peds males have most of the adventages. A group orcs that would for some reason turn in to females, or even become less male, would just be picked off by those orcs who stayed man.

Actually I was referring to the comment of "the danglies". Most of what Orcs tend to face are masculine, so their speech would match a male soldiers' speech. That's assuming that their asexual spore-positor isn't a dangly under their loin cloths. It would be interesting to see how a colony of orcs would develop if they only faced amazons or adeptus sororitas and if their language would match them.

Also I tend to think that in 40k, at least, Orks are bioweapons who have more in common to asexually reproducing clones, rather than a normal mixed gender race.

As Orcs/Orruks have been given the same reproductive style as Orks, the point still stands that they, more than any other of the stranger races, are seperate from the normal biological process. It would be more of an argument to say we should have more female Chaos Warriors. The two Darkoath figures are sort of in the right direction as they are followers of Chaos, though they are more like Chaos Marauders. I mean actual armored Warriors, similar to female Stormcast.

Okay, I had to make an account just to point this out, Orruks are NOT ORKS. Or even orcs. All of old world blew up, taking physical bodies of everyone and everything save some gods and heroes with it.

That means Orruks are not physical continuation of Orks/orcs and are not bound by their limitations. They sprung from whatever magic/aether also created aelves, duardin and humans, they are not Old Ones' creations.

As such, there is absolutely no reason not to have female orruks. GW to my knowledge left how different monstrous species (orruks, beastmen etc.) vague. I'll be of course happy to be proven wrong, just tell me in which battletome are orruks described as genderless fungoids.

They’ll always be orcs to me.

 Cronch wrote:
Okay, I had to make an account just to point this out, Orruks are NOT ORKS. Or even orcs. All of old world blew up, taking physical bodies of everyone and everything save some gods and heroes with it.

That means Orruks are not physical continuation of Orks/orcs and are not bound by their limitations. They sprung from whatever magic/aether also created aelves, duardin and humans, they are not Old Ones' creations.

As such, there is absolutely no reason not to have female orruks. GW to my knowledge left how different monstrous species (orruks, beastmen etc.) vague. I'll be of course happy to be proven wrong, just tell me in which battletome are orruks described as genderless fungoids.

So that means Freeguilds procreate through cellular mitosis now?

As we have both female and male humans, no. Same with aelves and duardin. However, there is no information regarding orruks, and orruks are not orks, so we do not know how they breed. As such, there is no pre-existing canon to claim they don't have sexes or are fungi.

 Cronch wrote:
As we have both female and male humans, no. Same with aelves and duardin. However, there is no information regarding orruks, and orruks are not orks, so we do not know how they breed. As such, there is no pre-existing canon to claim they don't have sexes or are fungi.

Do you have evidence they aren't the Orks of 40K or Orcs of the Old World? Name change means little if they sprang from the same place.

From my understanding, the new Realms were based off of the Old World, so naturally it would include the bestiary from it, including those dangerous ogres and orcs given names that are similar to the ones their races had on a world long past.

There is no physical continuity between the old world and Mortal Realms. A few heroes managed to escape via magic/chaos intervention, but that is it. The creatures of Mortal Realms are not descendants of Old World creatures, they just look the same because GW had models existing they wanted to use. Orruks are not Orcs, because no Orcs survived the Old World destruction. Just like Aelves are not children of Elves, they are reincarnated souls of elves that weren't eaten by Slaanesh.

Yes, the models and some aspects are based on the existing ones, but they are not 1:1 copies in lore. We were not given any information how orruks breed, and to assume they are the same species with no direct lore source to claim so is just wishful thinking. You can't transfer Old World lore to Mortal Realms, because they are not the same thing. As of right now, in the lore written for Mortal Realms, there is no reason that I know of to not have female orruks.

 Cronch wrote:
There is no physical continuity between the old world and Mortal Realms. A few heroes managed to escape via magic/chaos intervention, but that is it. The creatures of Mortal Realms are not descendants of Old World creatures, they just look the same because GW had models existing they wanted to use. Orruks are not Orcs, because no Orcs survived the Old World destruction. Just like Aelves are not children of Elves, they are reincarnated souls of elves that weren't eaten by Slaanesh.

Yes, the models and some aspects are based on the existing ones, but they are not 1:1 copies in lore. We were not given any information how orruks breed, and to assume they are the same species with no direct lore source to claim so is just wishful thinking. You can't transfer Old World lore to Mortal Realms, because they are not the same thing. As of right now, in the lore written for Mortal Realms, there is no reason that I know of to not have female orruks.

They aren't the same because thousands of years have passed between them and one was quite literally formed from the core of the other. Everything that grew on them was based off of Sigmar's memories of the Old World and whatever new things he thought up. Then there are the things which came in later like the Saurus, the Skaven, and the Daemons.

And again the question is asked, do you have evidence that Orruks are not Orcs with a new name? Just stating they are not is not evidence. What in the lore describes the Orruks coming from somewhere or something other than the Old World or Space?

I wouldn't like orc females.

Ogre females, on the other hand? As a rabid Ogre fan and collector I would love for ogre females.

Don't sexualize then, make them just like this wow ogre female fanart:

Cronch wrote:
As we have both female and male humans, no.

Are they though? Maybe they're just 'remembering' being male or female. We have no information in regards to how they really procreate, do we? No.

There is a female Ogre model.

I know, but that model is more a "Joke" model like the orc cheerleaders than a proper model. And is very old. I want new female ogre models.

 Galas wrote:
I know, but that model is more a "Joke" model like the orc cheerleaders than a proper model. And is very old. I want new female ogre models.

Not a joke model. It was one of the official maneater models.

I haven't read all the responses, sorry. But don't orks spawn from spores (maybe Im mixing 40k and Fantasy/AoS)? they are not even androgynous, they take on the most beneficial characteristics to be dominate (that would inherently lead them to be more masculine in characteristics, e.g. they don't need breasts because they don't need to feed infants, so want pure muscle. They don't need to have pronounced hips because they don't give birth etc etc.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I haven't read all the responses, sorry. But don't orks spawn from spores (maybe Im mixing 40k and Fantasy/AoS)? they are not even androgynous, they take on the most beneficial characteristics to be dominate (that would inherently lead them to be more masculine in characteristics, e.g. they don't need breasts because they don't need to feed infants, so want pure muscle. They don't need to have pronounced hips because they don't give birth etc etc.

Except they do?
In WHFB 7th ed it explicitly states that they come from spores, and even prior to that there were some hints, as they had a certain affinity for fungus.
In 40k Orks clearly spawn from spores.

Edit : Bah, I misread it. Yeah, they spawn from spores.

Okay some of you all have really strong feelings on an odd topic. The units in the newest orc books all have models so you probably won’t see female orcs any time soon. I’m not interested in having them as I’d rather resourcea be spent on other projects.

Having female human models make sense as those other ranges expand but I don’t think you’re going to see much expansions of races like orcs and ogres. If they do it I’m not going to write an angry letter but I have no interest in female orcs nor do I see women joining the hobby because of it. I don’t really see the advantage financially or logically and I doubt GW does either.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I haven't read all the responses, sorry. But don't orks spawn from spores (maybe Im mixing 40k and Fantasy/AoS)? they are not even androgynous, they take on the most beneficial characteristics to be dominate (that would inherently lead them to be more masculine in characteristics, e.g. they don't need breasts because they don't need to feed infants, so want pure muscle. They don't need to have pronounced hips because they don't give birth etc etc.

Except they do?
In WHFB 7th ed it explicitly states that they come from spores, and even prior to that there were some hints, as they had a certain affinity for fungus.
In 40k Orks clearly spawn from spores.

Then they are like lichen and fungi, and have like sex types going in to tens of thousands, making the question of why some don't look like orc versions of human females moot, at least in my opinion.

Question about WFB though, where there ever half orcs or hobgoblins in WFB, they don't seem to be any in AoS. Not that I couldn't have mixed them of course.

Half orcs, no. I think Hobgolbins were mentioned as being a variant of greenskin, but that was a while ago. I think they mentioned it in one of the 6th ed books?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Half orcs, no. I think Hobgolbins were mentioned as being a variant of greenskin, but that was a while ago. I think they mentioned it in one of the 6th ed books?

Hobgoblins are (were?) a Chaos Dwarf unit.

 Ghaz wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Half orcs, no. I think Hobgolbins were mentioned as being a variant of greenskin, but that was a while ago. I think they mentioned it in one of the 6th ed books?

Hobgoblins are (were?) a Chaos Dwarf unit.

Probably. That does sound vaguely familiar.

Ah, there's an article on them

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Hobgoblin

It seems that they are from the East, which is why you don't hear much of them. Most of the old Warhammer world was focused on the West.
I mean, they could have shifted the focus Eastwards instead of blowing the world up, but that would have been hard.