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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/25 23:41:45
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Fixture of Dakka
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Half orcs, no. I think Hobgolbins were mentioned as being a variant of greenskin, but that was a while ago. I think they mentioned it in one of the 6th ed books?
Ok, I just noticed that the hobgoblins of british/germanic culture come to existance in a drasticly different way then slavic ones do. I retract my question. Because our hobgoblins can very much be male or female humanoid. But then again they can also be male or female horse or cow, British hobgoblins seem to be a lot more peaceful.
Thanks for the link to the articles though, a ton of very interesting stuff.It is kind of a sad it no longer a thing anymore.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/25 23:42:52
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/26 00:20:27
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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In my opinion, any wargame in which there are dimorphic species should have models of the morphs. If not, one has to provide a very good excuse for that state of being. If there are Orc females in fantasy and they look different then their males, then there should be models for them. If the entire race is hermaphrodite like the Ork of 40K, then it should be explained so. If males and females are nearly identical beside the difference in genitals then its also useless to make models of both sex. For human and other similar races and faction, there should be models of men and women and if not one has to provide a good reason it. At least, they can provide us with unisex models like a person in a full plate armor for example that could either be a man or woman if they don't want to waste money on different customisations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/26 14:51:57
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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I never cease to be amazed at the topics which end up in multi-page debates.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/26 14:52:11
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/27 15:33:52
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
The deck of the Widower
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Anyone know where to find some correct scale Smurf models or heads? I think I need to make an Ork list now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/27 17:08:14
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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epronovost wrote:In my opinion, any wargame in which there are dimorphic species should have models of the morphs. If not, one has to provide a very good excuse for that state of being. If there are Orc females in fantasy and they look different then their males, then there should be models for them. If the entire race is hermaphrodite like the Ork of 40K, then it should be explained so. If males and females are nearly identical beside the difference in genitals then its also useless to make models of both sex. For human and other similar races and faction, there should be models of men and women and if not one has to provide a good reason it. At least, they can provide us with unisex models like a person in a full plate armor for example that could either be a man or woman if they don't want to waste money on different customisations.
To be fair, it's not hard to come up with a reason one sex might not be on the line with a sexually dimorphic species if one of the sexes is clearly not as fit for combat due to being smaller, weaker (or even obviously too large and slow etc.)
Sexual dimorphism by definition means that there are differences in biology and/or behavior beyond simply having different reproductive organs. For humans, that means the average male and female differ significantly in terms of skeletal structure, muscle mass and size, which pretty much sums up why you wouldn't have seen human females fairing too well on a medieval battlefield. So it might be unpopular in today's climate of gender parity but it would be more realistic not to feature both sexes for armies that rely on size and strength. We are talking about fantasy, however. The problem is balancing having a race where there are clearly different sexes with markedly different physical characteristics and still making them interchangeable (i.e. it's hard to do unisex and have clearly different sexes at the same time).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 10:32:16
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
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epronovost wrote:In my opinion, any wargame in which there are dimorphic species should have models of the morphs. If not, one has to provide a very good excuse for that state of being. If there are Orc females in fantasy and they look different then their males, then there should be models for them. If the entire race is hermaphrodite like the Ork of 40K, then it should be explained so. If males and females are nearly identical beside the difference in genitals then its also useless to make models of both sex. For human and other similar races and faction, there should be models of men and women and if not one has to provide a good reason it. At least, they can provide us with unisex models like a person in a full plate armor for example that could either be a man or woman if they don't want to waste money on different customisations.
I think I summed this up on the previous page. They are not hermaphrodites because they come from spores they don't need sex organs. It is explained in 40k many many times.
Spectral Ceramite wrote:I haven't read all the responses, sorry. But don't orks spawn from spores (maybe Im mixing 40k and Fantasy/ AoS)? they are not even androgynous, they take on the most beneficial characteristics to be dominate (that would inherently lead them to be more masculine in characteristics, e.g. they don't need breasts because they don't need to feed infants, so want pure muscle. They don't need to have pronounced hips because they don't give birth etc etc.
EDIT: I want Imperial Guard female models, I want tau female models (for 40k) etc etc. I want some beastmen female models etc as well, I want more diversity in ranges of models that can or do encompass a faction that could have female models/units. Just Orks I don't think qualify.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 10:39:27
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters
20k Deathwatch
10k Sisters of Battle
3k Inquisition
4k Grey Knights
5k Imperial Guard
4k Harlequins
8k Tau
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 14:35:07
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Luciferian wrote:
Sexual dimorphism by definition means that there are differences in biology and/or behavior beyond simply having different reproductive organs. For humans, that means the average male and female differ significantly in terms of skeletal structure, muscle mass and size, which pretty much sums up why you wouldn't have seen human females fairing too well on a medieval battlefield.
While not a common sight on a medieval battlefield in western europe, neither were women exactly. About 10% of the Russ and Viking troops were made of women, a bit less for Mongolians, Japanese and Turks. The same goes for early medieval Celts. For those who were present on the battlefield, they seemed to have faired about as well as their males counterpart probably thanks to the fact that warfare isn't athletism. The prevalence of size and strength isn't as important as one might think compared to factors like moral, discipline, tactics, strategy, equipment, training, battle experience, skill, team work, weather and more. Plus, when it comes to gender dimorphism amongst humans, or really any humanoid race based on the same proportion than humans, the overlap is massive so the idea that a woman can match in strength and size even an very athletic man, let alone an average one isn't surprising. If, hypotheticaly, I was to make an army that would recruit only the top 0.1% of the strongest people on Earth, I would still have a few women in my army (about 10% of it actually). Even in an army that exalt physical might above everything else, women, or the weaker sex should it be men in that specie, could still have a presence.
The problem is balancing having a race where there are clearly different sexes with markedly different physical characteristics and still making them interchangeable (i.e. it's hard to do unisex and have clearly different sexes at the same time).
Unisex isn't that hard considering the reduce scale of models and things like a fullplate armors. I don't think anybody can seriously make the difference between men and women when both are in fullplates and seen from about 60 meters away. For other species, dimorphism might be linked to things more like color patterns or horns/hairs or size of the fangs or breats more than actual size and strength which might very well be equal or not statisticaly insignificant. Its not easy to make believable unisex troops when they aren't fully armored or clothed, but I don't think its such an obstacle, especially not with things like beastmen for example.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 14:38:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 14:53:44
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Fixture of Dakka
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While not a common sight on a medieval battlefield in western europe, neither were women exactly. About 10% of the Russ and Viking troops were made of women, a bit less for Mongolians, Japanese and Turks. The same goes for early medieval Celts. For those who were present on the battlefield, they seemed to have faired about as well as their males counterpart probably thanks to the fact that warfare isn't athletism. The prevalence of size and strength isn't as important as one might think compared to factors like moral, discipline, tactics, strategy, equipment, training, battle experience, skill, team work, weather and more. Plus, when it comes to gender dimorphism amongst humans, or really any humanoid race based on the same proportion than humans, the overlap is massive so the idea that a woman can match in strength and size even an very athletic man, let alone an average one isn't surprising. If, hypotheticaly, I was to make an army that would recruit only the top 0.1% of the strongest people on Earth, I would still have a few women in my army (about 10% of it actually). Even in an army that exalt physical might above everything else, women, or the weaker sex should it be men in that specie, could still have a presence.
Oh I read those type of data. Some even fo as far as 1/3 of armies being female durning the 30 year war. The thing is, just because you are on the pay list and in the camp durning battle doesn't mean your the same as line infantry. We and the austro hungerians had 3 centuries of war vs the turks, if every 10th of their soldier was female we would have noticed. Same with mongols or vikings. You guys take burial data and just because someone was burried with a weapon, you claim they were a warrior. When the bone structure damage, or rather lack of it doesn't sugest that at all. In japan in the sengoku period, and before it, women were trained to use pole arms. But there were no female units or mass female conscription, there are no female budoka found. There are some Joan dArc type of female warriors in the literature create after the sengoku wars ended, but even there female "warriors" are rare.
The part of women catching up to man as strengh goes, is even more ludacris. I go to a sports school, I have seen female wrestling coachs taken in to submission by 2ed year highschool boys. No amount of training or discipline, can override someone being juiced up on natural testosteron all their life.
Yes there are those stories about female taking up arms and armor, and butchering unarmored and unarmed peasents trying to breach a town hall. Probablly every transition period nation has such stories. But if you put 50 armored man against 40 armored man and women, the second units formation will crumble faster. Even stuff like injuries work "better" with man.
If any AoS fantasy species has the same strenght to body mass to bone density ratio as human do, and the same spread of stats over the whole population, you would never want to have females in your army. Barring magic making up for it, but then the magic would have to work on females only. Because man with the same type of magic would again, be better suited for a warrior role.
Unisex isn't that hard considering the reduce scale of models and things like a fullplate armors. I don't think anybody can seriously make the difference between men and women when both are in fullplates and seen from about 60 meters away.
now considering we don't have examples of females of some of the races it is hard to judge, but as far as humans do. You would recognise a female soldider in armor at first glance. They are the ones that carry less weapons, less ammo, have smaller frame and lighter armor. Maybe if you had some sort of light cavalery in chain mail armor, not armed with spears, because pole arms favor man, then it would be harder to spot the females. But even among step folk like the huns, monogol, tatars or turks those type of units weren't the most popular, and those nations did not use females as line soldiers, or any soldiers if we were to believe the sources and archeolgical data.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 14:57:38
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 15:18:27
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Yeah, 10% sounds really high.
Graves are not an accurate way of determining if someone was a soldier, as swords were status symbols as well as weapons. A wealthy Viking woman would have owned a sword, even if she never actually used it.
Apparently there wasn't much good iron in Scandinavia, so a well made steel sword was basically the equivalent of a gold necklace.
There's not much historical evidence of shieldmaidens either. Keep in mind that Saga's are not primary historical accounts, and are subject to embellishments. Unless you mean to tell me that a wolf is going to eat the sun.
Also, the idea that athleticism wasn't a big factor in medieval warfare is laughable.
You need to be fit and strong in order to move in armor, fight for extended periods of time, and actually swing your weapon with enough force to actually hurt your opponent.
Despite what video games would tell you, bows are not a dex weapon and require quite a bit of upper body strength to wield.
Onna Busheiga, or warrior women, did exist in Japan as a well trained fighting force and are probably the most well documented case of such a unit. Even then they were relatively rare and most of them were left at home to protect the household from enemies.
Joan of Arc, despite the legend, never actually fought or killed anyone. Oh, she led charges and certainly commanded her forces, but she never actually fought. She said herself that her rule was more leadership than combat
“Better, forty times better, my banner than my sword!” – Joan of Arc
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 16:09:24
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 16:20:24
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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epronovost wrote:While not a common sight on a medieval battlefield in western europe, neither were women exactly. About 10% of the Russ and Viking troops were made of women, a bit less for Mongolians, Japanese and Turks. The same goes for early medieval Celts. For those who were present on the battlefield, they seemed to have faired about as well as their males counterpart probably thanks to the fact that warfare isn't athletism. The prevalence of size and strength isn't as important as one might think compared to factors like moral, discipline, tactics, strategy, equipment, training, battle experience, skill, team work, weather and more. Plus, when it comes to gender dimorphism amongst humans, or really any humanoid race based on the same proportion than humans, the overlap is massive so the idea that a woman can match in strength and size even an very athletic man, let alone an average one isn't surprising. If, hypotheticaly, I was to make an army that would recruit only the top 0.1% of the strongest people on Earth, I would still have a few women in my army (about 10% of it actually). Even in an army that exalt physical might above everything else, women, or the weaker sex should it be men in that specie, could still have a presence.
It REALLY depends on the time frame you're talking about, but athleticism does have a decent factor in warfare, otherwise the concept of 4F and the story of Captain America would have no meaning, and that's in a time when body armor wasn't a thing. A man and a woman with the same level of training will see the man dominate in athletic endeavors. That's why men and women sports are separated in the Olympics. Just check out the records in such events and you'll see a significant difference. Now, that doesn't mean a woman can't beat a man in an athletic endeavor, it just either requires a vast difference in training or where one's intelligence matters as much as strength, such as certain martial art sports. I'll freely admit that a trained woman would probably kick my arse up and down the field in any athletic endeavor.
And then there are efforts to down-grade requirements for roles in military and para-military roles so that women can more easily enter. Many of those requirements are there for a reason. When you need to drag a fellow soldier in to cover with all of his gear, that requires a certain level of athleticism. When you're packing full gear across a 10 mile hike at a decent pace, that requires a certain level of athleticism. While I might be able to handle the one (being heavy builds its own strength), the latter I couldn't even consider at my best, which is why I never joined.
TL;DR, any effective human woman in the military would be an outlier, not a standard. Even more so at a time when women usually bred themselves to death to increase the chance that someone would survive to have another generation. But that's for humans and other species operate on COMPLETELY different standards.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 16:23:32
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Karol wrote:
Oh I read those type of data. Some even fo as far as 1/3 of armies being female durning the 30 year war. The thing is, just because you are on the pay list and in the camp durning battle doesn't mean your the same as line infantry. We and the austro hungerians had 3 centuries of war vs the turks, if every 10th of their soldier was female we would have noticed. Same with mongols or vikings. You guys take burial data and just because someone was burried with a weapon, you claim they were a warrior. When the bone structure damage, or rather lack of it doesn't sugest that at all. In japan in the sengoku period, and before it, women were trained to use pole arms. But there were no female units or mass female conscription, there are no female budoka found. There are some Joan dArc type of female warriors in the literature create after the sengoku wars ended, but even there female "warriors" are rare.
I should note that the 10% estimate isn't from grave objects (it would rise to about 30% in that case or even more in some cases), but from casualty reports of Russ people by Byzantine historians who did found hundreds of women cadavres in armors and weapons after the battle ended (Saxo Grammaticus also made similar observations about the Danes). For the Turks, I must mention it was a feature of early medieval Turks before they arrived in Europe proper and before they converted to Islam. After their conversion, and their spectacular growth, the need for female warriors abated (much like the need for lower class male Turks), largely replaced by conscript of vassal nations. There is a lot of documentation on women participating in combat, most often during sieges where if you could stand you could fight and the traditional few exception brought by women raised in military family without living brothers who made war their trade as to preserve the family tradition. Young teenagers (14-15 years old) were also not all that rare, especially as scouts, messengers, sappers and skirmishers (roles that were also frequentely given to women in addition to cooks, spies and nurses).
The part of women catching up to man as strengh goes, is even more ludacris. I go to a sports school, I have seen female wrestling coachs taken in to submission by 2ed year highschool boys. No amount of training or discipline, can override someone being juiced up on natural testosteron all their life.
I am a teacher in a sport highschool and I have seen a terminal female student submit her male teacher in a wrestling match. I have also seen many girl outperform boys in judo. These are only annecdotes. I have seen boys outperfrom girls and indeed, I have also seen a boy beat his female teacher in a wresting match. Annecdotes are rather insignificant since you can fin an enormous quantity if divergeant ones. While statistically speaking men are indeed larger and stronger then women, but that doesn't mean that all men are stronger then all women or even that women are all weak. In fact, if you take everything into account there are about 5 to 10 thousand men in the world who can reasonnably pretend to be stronger than all women (that's if we use olympic weight lifting statistics as a barometer). For the rest of us, there is at least one woman who can overpower us with more or less ease. That's just a reality of things.
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Charistoph wrote:TL;DR, any effective human woman in the military would be an outlier, not a standard. Even more so at a time when women usually bred themselves to death to increase the chance that someone would survive to have another generation. But that's for humans and other species operate on COMPLETELY different standards.
10% is within the outlier realm. That's not a lot. Plus in most of those civilisation that used women as soldiers in such proportion, the choice wasn't men vs women, but more only men or men and women. In war, number is its own quality. Most of those civilisations had scarce resources and lived in a state of nearly constant warfare. If it wasn't for the need to have a lot of children, there would probably have been far more women then a 10% (at most) I would say. That's why in desperate situation, women on the battlefield become much more common and give, in general, a good account of themselves when compared to their conterpart conscripted men. Sadly, children also suffer a similar fate. While most civilisation would not wilingly send men younger than 16 on the battlefield, there were time were they had too, but that's another thing. I think fantasy could do with a few model of children like a drummer boy, sappers or brigands. It might be something GW might want to investigate for their special anniversary models for example.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 16:53:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 17:01:27
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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epronovost wrote:
Charistoph wrote:TL;DR, any effective human woman in the military would be an outlier, not a standard. Even more so at a time when women usually bred themselves to death to increase the chance that someone would survive to have another generation. But that's for humans and other species operate on COMPLETELY different standards.
10% is within the outlier realm. That's not a lot. Plus in most of those civilisation that used women as soldiers in such proportion, the choice wasn't men vs women, but more only men or men and women. In war, number is its own quality. Most of those civilisations had scarce resources and lived in a state of nearly constant warfare. If it wasn't for the need to have a lot of children, there would probably have been far more women then a 10% (at most) I would say. That's why in desperate situation, women on the battlefield become much more common and give, in general, a good account of themselves when compared to their conterpart conscripted men. Sadly, children also suffer a similar fate. While most civilisation would not wilingly send men younger than 16 on the battlefield, there were time were they had too, but that's another thing. I think fantasy could do with a few model of children like a drummer boy, sappers or brigands. It might be something GW might want to investigate for their special anniversary models for example.
Few civilizations before the last couple of centuries knew true "constant warfare". Combat operations were limited to certain times of the year because your numerous combat personnel were often as not your food growers, too, especially in the desperate times. Troop movement is extremely reliant on their stomachs, and you need to be able to feed your troops. Scavenging was a common practice in enemy territory as it deprived them of resources, too, but it was rarely useful in a case where you were going to be in a constant state of warfare we can truly commit to in our day.
Add on to the fact that women tended to be gravid more often than not, and it would only be a case of fending off immediate genocide when such women would be on the battlefield. That really sees that possible number drop below that 10% to maybe a handful in a legion, and they would mostly be hiding the fact so they didn't end up being raped.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 17:02:35
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 17:21:45
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Charistoph wrote:
Few civilizations before the last couple of centuries knew true "constant warfare". Combat operations were limited to certain times of the year because your numerous combat personnel were often as not your food growers, too, especially in the desperate times. Troop movement is extremely reliant on their stomachs, and you need to be able to feed your troops. Scavenging was a common practice in enemy territory as it deprived them of resources, too, but it was rarely useful in a case where you were going to be in a constant state of warfare we can truly commit to in our day.
Add on to the fact that women tended to be gravid more often than not, and it would only be a case of fending off immediate genocide when such women would be on the battlefield. That really sees that possible number drop below that 10% to maybe a handful in a legion, and they would mostly be hiding the fact so they didn't end up being raped.
You are correct to a point, but war needs not be a large business on a large battlefield. Most of the early Medieval and Antique wars were conflicts between a few hundred individuals opposing two clans in conflict. It's true that women's percentage in an army would vary. At some point, especially in times of prosperity and peace, they would be almost completely gone. It could also rise well above 10% in some region under certain circomstances. To name only one, there was a case when a Welsh castle was assaulted by English forces and it was defended by almost exclusively by women since the men were either sick, dead, old or searching for the English forces at the wrong place (the English were forced to retreat btw), but these are exceptional situations. Most women who fought in armies of the Middle-Age and Antiquity did so openly. Most these culture and nation had very little to no objection to women doing such a thing. It wasn't a taboo. While some might have done it in disguise like it would happen more or less often in the following centuries, we have, to my knowledge no such story reported to us from this time period which is sort of the point. Nobody was supposed to know they were women in the first place. As for the idea of rape, that was a problem no matter the gender and the reason why those gravid of prostitutes, mistresses and spouses following the army were so important for moral and discipline in earlier times when the average soldier was far from being as well trained as modern ones (with a few exceptions) and even then rape and sexual violence is a very common problem in modern armies and most of its victims are men.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 17:28:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 17:48:58
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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epronovost wrote:You are correct to a point, but war needs not be a large business on a large battlefield. Most of the early Medieval and Antique wars were conflicts between a few hundred individuals opposing two clans in conflict. It's true that women's percentage in an army would vary. At some point, especially in times of prosperity and peace, they would be almost completely gone. It could also rise well above 10% in some region under certain circomstances. To name only one, there was a case when a Welsh castle was assaulted by English forces and it was defended by almost exclusively by women since the men were either sick, dead, old or searching for the English forces at the wrong place (the English were forced to retreat btw), but these are exceptional situations. Most women who fought in armies of the Middle-Age and Antiquity did so openly. Most these culture and nation had very little to no objection to women doing such a thing. It wasn't a taboo. While some might have done it in disguise like it would happen more or less often in the following centuries, we have, to my knowledge no such story reported to us from this time period which is sort of the point. Nobody was supposed to know they were women in the first place. As for the idea of rape, that was a problem no matter the gender and the reason why those gravid of prostitutes, mistresses and spouses following the army were so important for moral and discipline in earlier times when the average soldier was far from being as well trained as modern ones (with a few exceptions) and even then rape and sexual violence is a very common problem in modern armies and most of its victims are men.
The reason most common victims of rape in the military are men is a simple case of statistics. The same applies to rape in prison. There is simply a much much larger proportion of men in both the militaries and prisons then there are women. But a woman found to be a soldier is in much more danger, especially if they are captured while their army is winning.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 18:06:10
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Charistoph wrote:
The reason most common victims of rape in the military are men is a simple case of statistics. The same applies to rape in prison. There is simply a much much larger proportion of men in both the militaries and prisons then there are women. But a woman found to be a soldier is in much more danger, especially if they are captured while their army is winning.
Its true that female soldiers are more likely to suffer from sexual crimes then their male couterpart, but that's the case for civilian women too. In fact, while its greater in the military, in terms of proportion (men vs women), the danger is distributed in pretty much the same fashion then in civilian society. The only difference is that occurences is higher. Also considering that torture was pretty much a given and sadly still is in many situation, the idea that women should fear being capture more than men appears to me stupid. Both will be submitted to torture, some of which will be of sexual nature. If you think that torturer didn't think of inserting certain object in certain place of your anathomy, forcing you to be nacked while someone ridicule your anathomy and a quantity of other treatment, then you have learned nothing from the abuse in Abu-Ghraib and even then, your class and standing will have an enormous impact in your detention conditions especially in Medieval times and Antiquity. Joan of Arc was a young, beautiful woman who was captured while the army of her nation was on a roll of victory to which she was instrumental and while she ended being executed for crimes against the Church (wearing an armor more specifically), she was never submited to torture or sexual violence and was in fact rather well treated during her two years of detention. Women who soldier during war time knew or at least expected that they would face an enormous amount of sexual violence should they be captured or lost the war (and many probably expected sexual violence from their own side). To me the fact that they faced with certainty such a danger to which some of their battle brothers might have been oblivious is a testament to their courage and their determination, the defining trait of a good soldier in my opinion.
PS: while certainly interesting, I think we are deviating of the subject which is basically should there be female models of other races than human and elves for example orcs. On that subject, am I the only one who wants to see female ogres and beastmen in fantasy?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 18:08:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 19:58:16
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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I think there should be female models in almost every AoS and 40k army, I just don't feel like they fit aesthetically and thematically with a couple of very specific examples.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 20:30:52
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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epronovost wrote: Charistoph wrote:
The reason most common victims of rape in the military are men is a simple case of statistics. The same applies to rape in prison. There is simply a much much larger proportion of men in both the militaries and prisons then there are women. But a woman found to be a soldier is in much more danger, especially if they are captured while their army is winning.
Its true that female soldiers are more likely to suffer from sexual crimes then their male couterpart, but that's the case for civilian women too. In fact, while its greater in the military, in terms of proportion (men vs women), the danger is distributed in pretty much the same fashion then in civilian society. The only difference is that occurences is higher. Also considering that torture was pretty much a given and sadly still is in many situation, the idea that women should fear being capture more than men appears to me stupid. Both will be submitted to torture, some of which will be of sexual nature. If you think that torturer didn't think of inserting certain object in certain place of your anathomy, forcing you to be nacked while someone ridicule your anathomy and a quantity of other treatment, then you have learned nothing from the abuse in Abu-Ghraib and even then, your class and standing will have an enormous impact in your detention conditions especially in Medieval times and Antiquity. Joan of Arc was a young, beautiful woman who was captured while the army of her nation was on a roll of victory to which she was instrumental and while she ended being executed for crimes against the Church (wearing an armor more specifically), she was never submited to torture or sexual violence and was in fact rather well treated during her two years of detention. Women who soldier during war time knew or at least expected that they would face an enormous amount of sexual violence should they be captured or lost the war (and many probably expected sexual violence from their own side). To me the fact that they faced with certainty such a danger to which some of their battle brothers might have been oblivious is a testament to their courage and their determination, the defining trait of a good soldier in my opinion.
Being officer helped in the past, but not so much today. Being an officer carried a lot more privileges than we assign today. One of the transport helicopter pilots during Desert Storm who was shot down was in danger of being raped (I can't remember if she actually was off hand) as they transported her and the living remainder of her crew away from the battlefield. They even made a movie of this pilot.
It also depends on who you are fighting. Asian and African cultures who do not recognize the rights of a woman without their guardian around are more likely to see raping of found woman as a perquisite of battle. European-based armies (including America and Canada) usually have a stronger pressure of preventing such actions. American tribes we have to go on hearsay, but they trended to capture "wives" when they didn't have one at home.
epronovost wrote:PS: while certainly interesting, I think we are deviating of the subject which is basically should there be female models of other races than human and elves for example orcs. On that subject, am I the only one who wants to see female ogres and beastmen in fantasy?
Which is why I pointed out that it only applies to human cultures, and not as easily placed in other cultures, be they Elven, Dwarven, or otherwise. Orcs and Saurians have no distinctive need or reason for such dimorphisms. However, the ogres and beastmen are of a different category. There are Slaanesh-worshiping beastmen, so we should see such results there, but for battle with beastmen... Considering what they do when they are not fighting, I wonder if they would ever make it.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 20:48:00
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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Didn't feel like reading 5 pages, but don't Orks reproduce via spores and therefore asexual? They'd just all look much alike physiologically?
I agree that Beastmen and Warherd types might have gender specific differences in appearance (being mammals too). Seraphon maybe males would be more colorful?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 20:50:34
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Seraphon aren't living creatures but entities born from a Slaan mage priest's memories, iirc. And the Lizardmen they were based on were born in magical pools. There were no Lizardmen females.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 20:50:46
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 21:11:48
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Seraphon aren't living creatures but entities born from a Slaan mage priest's memories, iirc.
And the Lizardmen they were based on were born in magical pools. There were no Lizardmen females.
Not quite. Once a Seraphon is "dreamed" back into existence, it's a fully living being. It's literally a physical copy of one of the Lizardmen of the World that Was. They live in cities, eat, sleep, etc.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 21:44:02
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Seraphon aren't living creatures but entities born from a Slaan mage priest's memories, iirc.
And the Lizardmen they were based on were born in magical pools. There were no Lizardmen females.
Aside from the pronouns used with specific characters, how would we KNOW the Saurus were male? More specifically, what if the pronouns used were assumptions used by Elves or Humans who saw them, and rather than being male, they were like ant soldiers and just infertile females?
As for the Seraphon, they were based on previously living Saurus, so that is a rather pointless distinction.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/28 23:25:14
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Charistoph wrote:It also depends on who you are fighting. Asian and African cultures who do not recognize the rights of a woman without their guardian around are more likely to see raping of found woman as a perquisite of battle. European-based armies (including America and Canada) usually have a stronger pressure of preventing such actions. American tribes we have to go on hearsay, but they trended to capture "wives" when they didn't have one at home.
Actually during Antiquity and Middle Ages a woman was dependant on a male guardian too in most circomstances. Women emensipation was one throughout the 19th and 20th century in western Europe through the work and sacrifice of hundreds of feminists. In Europe, raping the women of your enemy was considered the "privilege of the victor", rare were those who openly condamned the practice and actually tried to make it stop. Promising plunder and women to your troops was basically how many armies were paid. Women eaarned a higher measure of respect through years of activism which involved a lot more violence then what many people are comfortable with. As for native americans, they were known to indeed capture people, no matter their gender, to replace dead relatives. Many soldiers and missionnaries were actually amased by the respect native american men display toward women even in war times as rape was frowned upon. The concept of bastard doesn't exist amongst natives and when it comes to Iroquois, Huron, Neutra, Mohawk, Pétuns, being matrilinéal societies, raping a women would basically mean giving children to your enemies, a rather stupid idea.
Which is why I pointed out that it only applies to human cultures, and not as easily placed in other cultures, be they Elven, Dwarven, or otherwise. Orcs and Saurians have no distinctive need or reason for such dimorphisms. However, the ogres and beastmen are of a different category. There are Slaanesh-worshiping beastmen, so we should see such results there, but for battle with beastmen... Considering what they do when they are not fighting, I wonder if they would ever make it.
Beastmen, at least to me, should have a lot of women within their ranks. In fact it should be pretty much 50/50. I think pretty much all beastmen are bloodthirsty, lustful beasts who can't help themselves, but seek a fight once in a while. They are more like packs of animals on the hunt then professionnal or semi-professionnal forces. Plus, unlike most humanoids, most animal remain very physically capable even when they are pregnant. Children are probably more autonomous too then human babiesnd even if they were not, I don't imagine the beastmen being very good parents. Their infantile mortality rate must be significantly higher than that of more civilised races. Plus, considering their nature, I don't think that dimorphism is such an issue for beastmen.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 01:01:55
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Seraphon aren't living creatures but entities born from a Slaan mage priest's memories, iirc.
And the Lizardmen they were based on were born in magical pools. There were no Lizardmen females.
To be fair it's not easy to readily identify reptile females as they aren't shaped like mammals.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 01:06:08
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Fajita Fan wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Seraphon aren't living creatures but entities born from a Slaan mage priest's memories, iirc.
And the Lizardmen they were based on were born in magical pools. There were no Lizardmen females.
To be fair it's not easy to readily identify reptile females as they aren't shaped like mammals.
Apparently there are studies on it though
apparently male lizardos have larger heads and torsos.
You could also go the bird route of making male lizards more colorful.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 01:12:41
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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epronovost wrote: Charistoph wrote:It also depends on who you are fighting. Asian and African cultures who do not recognize the rights of a woman without their guardian around are more likely to see raping of found woman as a perquisite of battle. European-based armies (including America and Canada) usually have a stronger pressure of preventing such actions. American tribes we have to go on hearsay, but they trended to capture "wives" when they didn't have one at home.
Actually during Antiquity and Middle Ages a woman was dependant on a male guardian too in most circomstances. Women emensipation was one throughout the 19th and 20th century in western Europe through the work and sacrifice of hundreds of feminists. In Europe, raping the women of your enemy was considered the "privilege of the victor", rare were those who openly condamned the practice and actually tried to make it stop. Promising plunder and women to your troops was basically how many armies were paid. Women eaarned a higher measure of respect through years of activism which involved a lot more violence then what many people are comfortable with. As for native americans, they were known to indeed capture people, no matter their gender, to replace dead relatives. Many soldiers and missionnaries were actually amased by the respect native american men display toward women even in war times as rape was frowned upon. The concept of bastard doesn't exist amongst natives and when it comes to Iroquois, Huron, Neutra, Mohawk, Pétuns, being matrilinéal societies, raping a women would basically mean giving children to your enemies, a rather stupid idea.
Indeed. There are some cultures still in Asia and Africa who would still be using spears and arrows if we hadn't introduced them to firearms (which is partly odd since firearm tech came through some of those Asian cultures). Nor was I trying to state that this wasn't a past happenstance for European-model armies. I was trying to imply for those of current times.
I called the American Tribal actions "hearsay" because we all know how some tales grow longer in the telling, especially when the uneducated are the ones passing them on. However, your points definitely would lead to that direction. Of course, those usually only apply to non-slaving tribes. As one went farther south and started getting in to the tribes who acquired slaves, other issues abounded.
epronovost wrote:Which is why I pointed out that it only applies to human cultures, and not as easily placed in other cultures, be they Elven, Dwarven, or otherwise. Orcs and Saurians have no distinctive need or reason for such dimorphisms. However, the ogres and beastmen are of a different category. There are Slaanesh-worshiping beastmen, so we should see such results there, but for battle with beastmen... Considering what they do when they are not fighting, I wonder if they would ever make it.
Beastmen, at least to me, should have a lot of women within their ranks. In fact it should be pretty much 50/50. I think pretty much all beastmen are bloodthirsty, lustful beasts who can't help themselves, but seek a fight once in a while. They are more like packs of animals on the hunt then professionnal or semi-professionnal forces. Plus, unlike most humanoids, most animal remain very physically capable even when they are pregnant. Children are probably more autonomous too then human babiesnd even if they were not, I don't imagine the beastmen being very good parents. Their infantile mortality rate must be significantly higher than that of more civilised races. Plus, considering their nature, I don't think that dimorphism is such an issue for beastmen.
It isn't so much the dimorphism as much as being abused to death for the pleasure of the males. There are some notations of that happening when the Beastmen raided a town. Not even the beasts were ignored from such a fate.
Fajita Fan wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Seraphon aren't living creatures but entities born from a Slaan mage priest's memories, iirc.
And the Lizardmen they were based on were born in magical pools. There were no Lizardmen females.
To be fair it's not easy to readily identify reptile females as they aren't shaped like mammals.
Indeed. It can be difficult with canines and felines at times as well if you don't have a good view of the aft, but reptiles are even worse. And when one considers the complete lack of reproduction from mating, the need for any such distinctions in a designed specie go right out the window. Which is how we get back to the Orcs and their situation.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 01:20:01
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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epronovost wrote:
Beastmen, at least to me, should have a lot of women within their ranks. In fact it should be pretty much 50/50. I think pretty much all beastmen are bloodthirsty, lustful beasts who can't help themselves, but seek a fight once in a while. They are more like packs of animals on the hunt then professionnal or semi-professionnal forces. Plus, unlike most humanoids, most animal remain very physically capable even when they are pregnant. Children are probably more autonomous too then human babiesnd even if they were not, I don't imagine the beastmen being very good parents. Their infantile mortality rate must be significantly higher than that of more civilised races. Plus, considering their nature, I don't think that dimorphism is such an issue for beastmen.
Yeah, and as you mentioned we wouldn't have much visual ques to determine a different. A female vs a male Gor might be slightly smaller horns, but given that all beastmen have huge differences between each other, each being basically a unique combination of human and bestial features it would be difficult to tell if an observed difference is because it is a male/female or because of something else. Its not like there is a single established body pattern for Gors, Ungors, etc...
Plus Beastmen can reproduce multiple ways. With each other, with humans, or from two normal humans who were unfortunate enough to have their child randomly be a beastman.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 01:49:06
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Charistoph wrote:
It isn't so much the dimorphism as much as being abused to death for the pleasure of the males. There are some notations of that happening when the Beastmen raided a town. Not even the beasts were ignored from such a fate.
I think you are underestimating a potential element there. Your average women sexual endurance usually far outstrip that of the average men (Mark Twain illariously illustrated that in Letters from the Earth). If this translate to beastmen that means their women are so savage and lustful not only can they handle their horny (both literally and figuratively) males, but once they are spent they might still be hungry for that cute little men with the spear over there. Ain't he cute he, he brought a gift. Mama-razorgor is going to take care of you..ur-ur-wink-wink.
@Grey Templar
I would expect some Beastmen or more accurately Beastwomen to display breats or numerous teets for example (different shape of horns or even some weirdly exagerated feminine curves like "childbearing hips" for example could also be a thing). Female Ungors might display some more feminine traits.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/29 01:53:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 03:44:09
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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epronovost wrote: Charistoph wrote:
It isn't so much the dimorphism as much as being abused to death for the pleasure of the males. There are some notations of that happening when the Beastmen raided a town. Not even the beasts were ignored from such a fate.
I think you are underestimating a potential element there. Your average women sexual endurance usually far outstrip that of the average men (Mark Twain illariously illustrated that in Letters from the Earth). If this translate to beastmen that means their women are so savage and lustful not only can they handle their horny (both literally and figuratively) males, but once they are spent they might still be hungry for that cute little men with the spear over there. Ain't he cute he, he brought a gift. Mama-razorgor is going to take care of you..ur-ur-wink-wink.
Not all abuse came from or is based on the winky-wink.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 03:45:59
Subject: Re:AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/11/29 03:50:29
Subject: AoS - Would you like to have female orc models in your greenskin horde?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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OKAY, LET US ALL WHO DONT NEED FEMALE ORCS BE HONEST HERE: THEYD BE HIDEOUS LOOKING.
THERE, I SAID IT.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/29 03:51:17
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