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Where does GW come up with their rules?

Do they not understand that a 3++ save is incredible and doesn't need any kind of special icing on top for it to be autoinclude in literally every situation?

Was In a game last night and my Russ Demolisher was getting charged by a Custodes bike captain. He reolled a double 1 for the 6 inch charge then command pointed with another 1 - which totally sucked for him - but it was great for me. I went to get a drink and I came back and my friend was like - oh man "this guy actually has reroll charge from his (warlord trait or relic - not sure which it was) and he then proceeds to roll 1 more dice for a 6 and makes the charge. I could have been a dick and not allowed it - but I don't play like that. I was legitimately angered by the actual rule itself though. Seriously...who's Idea was it to add any icing on top rules for a M Gaking 3++ save? Like seriously why not just make it a 2++ save if the 3++ wasn't good enough? Holy crap GW. PLEASE learn the rules to your own game 3++ is kind of good.

3++ is retardadly good the higher the Toughness and Wounds of the model getting it is. I'm of the opinion that invuln saves in general need to be rare for Armor, and anything past 5++ REALLY needs to be examined.

And while I realize that Custodes bike captains aren't armor, they're pretty close.

TL;DR: I feel your pain, dawg.

Oh, it's another ragey thread about not understanding game balance from xenomancers. Is it Monday again already?

Seriously, I don't mean to troll or anything, but he/she posts these sorts of things constantly. It gets old.

MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

It's from the Auric Aquilas Relic Jetbike.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure "You can't reroll a reroll" is still a thing in 8th, right? If you've used a CP reroll for a single dice, and then try to use a Relic to "reroll your charge distance", how does that interact?

I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).

Can't reroll a reroll. He had you there.

It's either he rerolls a single dice via Command Reroll or reroll both dice from his relic.

Also, Custodes has a special save against MW, so no, not as effective (maybe a tad bit more useful) as you think it is.

Rocmistro wrote:
I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).

Melee ones it is... How many PoF DE players are there? How many Melee Shiny Spears? How many 4++ Characters? If you know Invul units are coming to CC you, yes it is a good option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
Can't reroll a reroll. He had you there.

It's either he rerolls a single dice via Command Reroll or reroll both dice from his relic.

Also, Custodes has a special save against MW, so no, not as effective (maybe a tad bit more useful) as you think it is.

A 6+ save lol what a save that is

 Amishprn86 wrote:
A 6+ save lol what a save that is

Sure, a 1 in 6 chance of negating a wound that cannot be negated is pretty minor I suppose.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Tbf not every army has easy access to MWs.

So stop firing things that care about his invulnerable, overwhelm him with Dakka, ya zoggin git.

OP will gak himself when he sees DE HQs...

Moar daka.

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP will gak himself when he sees DE HQs...

Well, the Archon has a 2++ but he loses it the first time he fails the roll (which, for my Archons, is the first save they make in each game ).

 vipoid wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP will gak himself when he sees DE HQs...

Well, the Archon has a 2++ but he loses it the first time he fails the roll (which, for my Archons, is the first save they make in each game ).

But.... But... a 2++ That's unbelievable Jeff! What do you mean to tell me they had it in the game for the past 20 years?

Don’t shoot high AP at units with good invulnerable saves.

Shoot volume of fire with enough AP to put them on their invulnerable save instead of armour, probably even just -1 will do in a lot of cases, or -2. Make them roll more dice and more will fail.

I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.

I'm not slowed, here, people, I understand you don't waste lascannons on a 3++.

The problem is, as I started in my original response to Xeno, that you can't shoot something that has, effectively, tank stats, with dakka dakka. Wounding on 5's and a 2+ armor save, 7 wounds, assuming you even CAN shoot at him (character) in ADDITION to the 3++ is too much. You can't have premium defense without paying premium price for it. It's the flip side of the dissy cannon conversation that's going on the Chapter Approved thread; being good against everything (hordes, elite infantry and vehicles) but only paying niche cost (15 pts.)

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So stop firing things that care about his invulnerable, overwhelm him with Dakka, ya zoggin git.

Well some armies don't have the dakka to drop jetbike captins or the MW in kill him in a single turn. Not saying it is the case here, but if there are 3 of the cpts and some sort of support, and there always is support, some armies just fold in melee. smite or not,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rocmistro wrote:
I'm not slowed, here, people, I understand you don't waste lascannons on a 3++.

The problem is, as I started in my original response to Xeno, that you can't shoot something that has, effectively, tank stats, with dakka dakka. Wounding on 5's and a 2+ armor save, 7 wounds, assuming you even CAN shoot at him (character) in ADDITION to the 3++ is too much. You can't have premium defense without paying premium price for it. It's the flip side of the dissy cannon conversation that's going on the Chapter Approved thread; being good against everything (hordes, elite infantry and vehicles) but only paying niche cost (15 pts.)

True, a pimped out custodes cpt costs less then a GK GM, only the GK GM doesn't have a jetbike, the actually good stratagems, better stats and inv.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Correct unless competition level event. He would always reroll with auric aqulias if he failed a charge. All you did was make it a realistic outcome if he was a better player. Winning a friendly because of noob should not be satisfying.

Also note, Custodes have 2 relics that can give shield captains 3++, its called Eagle Eye



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You must also hate the smash captain that has a 3++ for 15pts, combined with the relic that allows him to reroll charges AND ignore overwatch

I play Blood Angels and Captain Smashypants is absolutely too good for his points. No question. That's why he's showing up souped into every Guard List with his BA obligatory 3x5 Scout battalion + (Flybrarian or Mephiston).

But, at least he's not nearly as tough as a Jetbike Capt, or a 2+ base, or as many wounds, or as fast.

Rocmistro wrote:
I play Blood Angels and Captain Smashypants is absolutely too good for his points. No question. That's why he's showing up souped into every Guard List with his BA obligatory 3x5 Scout battalion + (Flybrarian or Mephiston).

But, at least he's not nearly as tough as a Jetbike Capt, or a 2+ base, or as many wounds, or as fast.

Cant put a price on relics, stratagems and traits.

What part of the bare bones captain is overpriced:

Jump pack 19, Thunderhammer 21 or Stormshield 15

Rocmistro wrote:
I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).

As an observation, if he's avoiding the Librarian, you have a 12" radius area he's not going, which is many times good enough.

That said, the Jetbike will probably dive bomb the librarian to take him out and thus cancel the null zone, so you better be ready to keep him alive.

 Smirrors wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:
I play Blood Angels and Captain Smashypants is absolutely too good for his points. No question. That's why he's showing up souped into every Guard List with his BA obligatory 3x5 Scout battalion + (Flybrarian or Mephiston).

But, at least he's not nearly as tough as a Jetbike Capt, or a 2+ base, or as many wounds, or as fast.

Cant put a price on relics, stratagems and traits.

What part of the bare bones captain is overpriced:

Jump pack 19, Thunderhammer 21 or Stormshield 15

The Jump Pack. GW consistently undervalues speed, especially speed with FLY.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:
I don't think you can, since you can't reroll a reroll, and using a relic/special rule/stratagem to "reroll your charge distance" requires you to reroll both dice (and now you can't), then you wouldn't be able to use that relic/special rule/stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
MW's and Null zone. Not his fault you didnt bring tools that you could have to counter invul units,a nd Re-roll charges are everywhere you should get used to it.

Sorry, but Null Zone is NOT a plan to deal with Invuln saves. Casts on 8 and 6" range is hardly a reliable tool in your "toolkit" to deal with invuln saves. The speed and character rule of Dawneagle Captain means he can just avoid the libby with null zone, and/or drop out of range to not get hit with mortal wounds (shooting/smite or anything else).

As an observation, if he's avoiding the Librarian, you have a 12" radius area he's not going, which is many times good enough.

That said, the Jetbike will probably dive bomb the librarian to take him out and thus cancel the null zone, so you better be ready to keep him alive.

Yeah. B.c controlling a large part of the table, stopping/making him work around a 15" circle that has important units in it and an objective isnt good enough for him. He doesnt want tactics, he wants basic marines shooting basic marines and is QQing b.c he has to think.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.

Did you know that Custodes actually have another relic that IS just a 3++ ?

There's Auric Aquilas which is what you're talking about, 3++ and re-roll charge but only bikes can take it.

Then there's the Eagle's Eye which is just the 3++ but anyone can take it.

I basically agree with you, even as a Custodes player. 3++ in itself is crazy good, and these too relics existing make it really hard to justify taking any of the others.

GW really, really needs to stop handing out such good protection to so many characters, I agree. They also need to take a long, hard look at many of their relics because it's laughable how bad some of them are in comparison to others. The Shield Captain is the perfect example of a unit that's gone completely too far in one direction. You don't need T6, W7, 2+ save and a 3++ on top of the protection of being a character and the possibility of a 5+++, that's just insane and leaves very little valid counterplay. Dakka doesn't work because of the high Toughness and low-volume high-damage stuff doesn't work because of the 3++. The major difference between the Shield captain and the Smashcaptain is that the BA Captain is T4 with W5 so you actually can just hose him down with small arms once he's obliterated his target.

Use Assault Cannons and Autocannons (or racial equivalents), they are great value against Custodes. High volume of fire, good strength and optimal at -1 AP. Incidentally, they also work great against Dark Eldar flyers and Shining Spears.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. I am upset about the relic being over the top. A 3++ save relic is sufficient - it doesn't need to also reroll charges. I actually let him get away with doing a double reroll because on double 1's you would pick up both dice and reroll every time if you have a reroll charge.

Hes my friend I'm not going to punish him for a simple mistake like that. What is stupid is this relic. 3++ save does not need anything special on top of it. I actaully killed it no problem with a bunch of bolt rifles and a taurox with gatling cannon and auto cannons.

Then he's not the problem, the problem is you letting him ignore a fundamental rule that's been in place since 4th and letting him reroll everything until he makes the charge.

Bubblewrap also. He can no longer charge across screen units. Feed him chaff to charge and don’t let him consolidate into stuff you want alive. Layers and Dakka will drop them.