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hi guys; recently in a game i was faced with a situation that honestly me and my oponent dint know how to resolve it.
My oponent was playing a chaos soup with magnus in it and in his psycker phase he casts warptime on magnus in order to get him to charge distance. After FAQ 2 does he get to fly over units and ignore terrain with warptime?

cheers

From the BRB Errata:

BRB Errata wrote:If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.

Warptime is not used in the movement phase. Yes, you are moving, but it is not the Movement phase so FLY doesn't have any benefit. A unit that moves via Warptime doesn't get to ignore terrain or enemy models.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
From the BRB Errata:

BRB Errata wrote:If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.

Warptime is not used in the movement phase. Yes, you are moving, but it is not the Movement phase so FLY doesn't have any benefit. A unit that moves via Warptime doesn't get to ignore terrain or enemy models.

The rules for Warptime state the unit can immediately move as if it were its Movement phase.

If Magnus can move over models and terrain in the Movement phase, he can also do it under the effects of Warptime.

No, he cannot, because it is not the movement phase. "As if" is not the same as "is".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, he cannot, because it is not the movement phase. "As if" is not the same as "is".

Except that is exactly how it works. And always has.

“As if” simply refers to something happening like it would in 1 situation, in a second situation.

“As if it were the Movement phase” refers to something happening outside of the movement phase, that uses the stated rules for the Movement phase, even though it is a different phase completely.

As such, anything that allows you to act “as if” it were another phase follows the rules and interactions of the stated phase, even though the game has progressed past/not yet got to, that point in the turn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, he cannot, because it is not the movement phase. "As if" is not the same as "is".

So then how do you play Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith? Since you're moving, shooting, fighting as if it were those phases before the movement phase?

We had this debate..and our group pretty much decided that you can fly when using warp time because of the "Move as though it was your movement" wording

Otherwise why put it in it the text?

If you move as if it were the Movement Phase and you have FLY you can move over models, etc. Otherwise you wouldn’t be moving as if it were the Movement Phase. It would have to state a restriction for one to apply - no anti-FLY restriction is stated therefore none applies.

That guys saying otherwise above is speaking from a “what he wished the rules said” POV, despite his sig claims. Tbf, in that sig he also references a GW email as some form of YMDC ‘proof’, which as we know from the Tenets is not proof, so there’s that too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, he cannot, because it is not the movement phase. "As if" is not the same as "is".

Move as if if were his movement phase means he follows his movement rules for the movement phase, which includes flying.

Your argument holds for things like playing subsequent stratagems on the unit subject to warptime that specify playing in the movement phase, but the unit gets all his movement rules normal for his movement phase.

Except the rule for FLY explicitly states it only works in the movement phase, not just when models move. You are right that you follow the rules for the movement phase, and the rule works in the movement phase.

If you're following the rules for the movement phase, and the rule works in the movement phase, then it works when you're following the rules for the movement phase...which includes moving under warptime, which has you moving as if it were the movement phase, i.e. following the movement rules for the movement phase.

But thank you for confirming that you can fly with warptime.

You're free to think whatever you want, the rule is as I have laid out. A final question, when you use warptime is it the movement phase? A yes or no, one word answer please.

Since I can only use one word....

Yes

Let me know if I can use more words for the next counter argument if you are confused

How are you using Warptime in the movement phase, if I may ask?

Warps time specifically says.

"If Manifested, Pick a heretic Atartes unit within 3" of the psysker. that unit immediatly move as if it were its movement phase."

The psychic phase is that models movement phase, therefore ..it can fly.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you. Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

 rayphoton wrote:
Warps time specifically says.

"If Manifested, Pick a heretic Atartes unit within 3" of the psysker. that unit immediatly move as if it were its movement phase."

The psychic phase is that models movement phase, therefore ..it can fly.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you. Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

Because "as if" is not the same as "is". The rule for FLY explicitly states it only works in the movement phase, not when models are acting as if it were the movement phase. If it's not actually the movement phase, the rule doesn't do anything. That's all there is to it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
How are you using Warptime in the movement phase, if I may ask?

Stop the disingenuous questions. If you won't accept consensus, that's one thing, but you've said you're bowing out. So do that instead of disingenuous posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
Warps time specifically says.

"If Manifested, Pick a heretic Atartes unit within 3" of the psysker. that unit immediatly move as if it were its movement phase."

The psychic phase is that models movement phase, therefore ..it can fly.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you. Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

Because "as if" is not the same as "is". The rule for FLY explicitly states it only works in the movement phase, not when models are acting as if it were the movement phase. If it's not actually the movement phase, the rule doesn't do anything. That's all there is to it.

So by that logic they can't even move.

People keep trying this argument that "as if" doesn't mean "is". "As if" means they do everything exactly as if it were the phase in question.

If you want to disagree just read the Swooping Hawk Grenade pack FAQ. Basically says if a unit of Swooping Hawks used the "Fire and Fade" stratagem in the shooting phase which allows them to move 7" after shooting. Any unit they pass OVER will again get bombed by their Swooping Hawk grenades.

Thus it's an example of non-movement phase "as if" movement that not only benefits from "FLY" but they also get to use their Grenade packs.

So put a nail in it "as if" does in fact mean "is" for the duration of the power or stratagem being used.

snaegr wrote:
hi guys; recently in a game i was faced with a situation that honestly me and my oponent dint know how to resolve it.
My oponent was playing a chaos soup with magnus in it and in his psycker phase he casts warptime on magnus in order to get him to charge distance. After FAQ 2 does he get to fly over units and ignore terrain with warptime?

cheers

Hi

Warptime tells you to treat the movement as per the movement phase, so the fly keyword will apply.

Hope this helps.

Wagguy80 wrote:
People keep trying this argument that "as if" doesn't mean "is". "As if" means they do everything exactly as if it were the phase in question.

If you want to disagree just read the Swooping Hawk Grenade pack FAQ. Basically says if a unit of Swooping Hawks used the "Fire and Fade" stratagem in the shooting phase which allows them to move 7" after shooting. Any unit they pass OVER will again get bombed by their Swooping Hawk grenades.

Thus it's an example of non-movement phase "as if" movement that not only benefits from "FLY" but they also get to use their Grenade packs.

So put a nail in it "as if" does in fact mean "is" for the duration of the power or stratagem being used.

You can't use an FAQ for something to generalise to everything. That's not how any of this works.

 rayphoton wrote:
Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

I don't think he's being obtuse. It genuinely feels like BCB truly believes Fly only works in the movement phase, regardless of other, later rules specifically treating an action as BEING the movement phase part II.

Another way to look at is, however, is the following:
Could a model with FLY use Fly 'if' it were the movement phase? I feel all of us, including BCB, would say "Yes"
So when a rule treats an action AS IF it were that phase, for the purpose of resolving that action, you treat it a BEING that phase, because IF it were that phase, you could.
"AS IF" means we all pretend it is

-

 Galef wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

I don't think he's being obtuse. It genuinely feels like BCB truly believes Fly only works in the movement phase, regardless of other, later rules specifically treating an action as BEING the movement phase part II.

Another way to look at is, however, is the following:
Could a model with FLY use Fly 'if' it were the movement phase? I feel all of use, including BCB, would say "Yes"
So when a rule treats an action AS IF it were that phase, for the purpose of resolving that action, you treat it a BEING that phase.

-

Yes, I "believe" it the same way I "believe" that I will be pulled towards the Earth's core when I get out of bed. It's really simple, is it the Movement Phase (not "as if" the movement phase, the ACTUAL movement phase) when you use Warptime? The answer is No, so FLY doesn't do anything. It's one of the few rules GW actually wrote correctly (eventually, it is an Errata after all).

 Galef wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

I don't think he's being obtuse. It genuinely feels like BCB truly believes Fly only works in the movement phase, regardless of other, later rules specifically treating an action as BEING the movement phase part II.

Another way to look at is, however, is the following:
Could a model with FLY use Fly 'if' it were the movement phase? I feel all of use, including BCB, would say "Yes"
So when a rule treats an action AS IF it were that phase, for the purpose of resolving that action, you treat it a BEING that phase.

-

The problem is that we have very little clarity on what the bounds of treating it as a phase.

If I used a Command re-roll in the psychic phase already, then use a power that causes something to happen 'as if' it were the movement phase, can I command re-roll something in that action provided I didn't re-roll in the movement phase?

I think everyone would say no, right? Because it's not actually the movement phase.

 Stux wrote:
The problem is that we have very little clarity on what the bounds of treating it as a phase.

If I used a Command re-roll in the psychic phase already, then use a power that causes something to happen 'as if' it were the movement phase, can I command re-roll something in that action provided I didn't re-roll in the movement phase?

I think everyone would say no, right? Because it's not actually the movement phase.

My point exactly! The same people who insist FLY works would be the first to decry you as <INSERT ACRONYM HERE> for trying to use a Command Point re-roll in this pseudo-Movement Phase.

I don't think it's clear cut either way honestly. Sticking on the fence on this one. We really need some more guidance on what exactly 'as if' means.

But even treating "as if" it is the movement phase, doesn't also mean you aren't still in the Psychic phase.
So that solves the "already used the Command re-roll" problem right there. You're "in the movement phase" for the purpose or resolving the rule while also in the Psychic phase

Performing an action "as if" if were X phase literally means you perform that action in the same manner as you would have/did in that actual phase.
Could you use Fly in the movement phase? Yes, so you get to use it for Warptime. Done

Regardless of your interpretation of the English language, you have to admit that placing the "as if" cause in the wording of the rule has ZERO purpose if you cannot apply everything that also applies "as if" it were actually the phase in question.
I know you want to think GW doesn't know how to write rules properly, but they don't put in words for no reason

-

Unless "as if" means you use the Movement Phase rules then the unit cannot move in any form. Given the intent and the wording of the rule is that they can, I'd love a citation for the reason why BCB believes you can move but not actually move normally, because it just reads like making stuff up right now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Unless "as if" means you use the Movement Phase rules then the unit cannot move in any form. Given the intent and the wording of the rule is that they can, I'd love a citation for the reason why BCB believes you can move but not actually move normally, because it just reads like making stuff up right now.

What about things that don't says as if it were the movement phase?

I don't really even know what you're asking, but that would be a different question thus different answers might apply. If you could be clearer/more specific I might get what you mean, sorry, missing your point just now.