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 Galef wrote:

If I used a Command re-roll in the psychic phase already, then use a power that causes something to happen 'as if' it were the movement phase, can I command re-roll something in that action provided I didn't re-roll in the movement phase?

I think everyone would say no, right? Because it's not actually the movement phase.

Both can be right. Your treating that model as though it is in its movement phase while its in the psychic phase. Like a box in a box. You used the command reroll in the psychic phase (the big box)..so you cant use it again, but for that one model IT is in its movement phase (the little box) again..but only for movement not for command roll stuff. Since its movement says it can fly ..it can fly.

Maybe we can post this to that fb group thing GW runs.

I also find it humorous that BCB was like .I'm leaving....BUT...only after arguing some more.

Yeah, I really don't know how anyone could interpret "as if" any other way than "as if"
In other words, "if" it were the movement phase, how would the model preform? What abilities can it use during the movement phase?
Because "if it were the movement phase", it could do all those things.
When using Warptime, you move the model as "if it were the movement phase."

I.e., you can Fly

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 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't really even know what you're asking, but that would be a different question thus different answers might apply. If you could be clearer/more specific I might get what you mean, sorry, missing your point just now.

Well technically if you move in say the psychic or shooting phase but without the "as if" condition then surely none of the movement phase restrictions apply? I dont understand why you thing you can't move?

More specifically fly or not doesn't matter as you can just move clean through enemy models etc regardless as RAW the movement restrictions are part of the movement phase rules and hence don't apply to other phases?

It's not hard to reconcile.

The unit is given permission to move as if it were the Movement Phase, including flying.

You can't play however use Movement Phase Stratagems as it isn't the Movement Phase, you're just borrowing that phase's rules for one specific action that otherwise has no rules to govern it.

I don't find this hard to square away, personally.


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Ice_can wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't really even know what you're asking, but that would be a different question thus different answers might apply. If you could be clearer/more specific I might get what you mean, sorry, missing your point just now.

Well technically if you move in say the psychic or shooting phase but without the "as if" condition then surely none of the movement phase restrictions apply? I dont understand why you thing you can't move?

More specifically fly or not doesn't matter as you can just move clean through enemy models etc regardless as RAW the movement restrictions are part of the movement phase rules and hence don't apply to other phases?

Starting anything "well technically" usually signifies stretched logic or extreme pedantry will follow... you've stretched it past breaking here.

That was my point that one either subscribes to the rules of the movement phase restrictions and hence the fly rule also apply to warptime etc movement or some really wierd things happen.
I know of one relic which doesn't actually contain the "as if the movement phase" I have always played it like it did, but maybe thats wrong.
Probably just another thing thats been missed in GW changing the rules mid way through codex's etc and not being consistent with the wording across codex's.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
Warps time specifically says.

"If Manifested, Pick a heretic Atartes unit within 3" of the psysker. that unit immediatly move as if it were its movement phase."

The psychic phase is that models movement phase, therefore ..it can fly.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you. Unless you are ..as some others have posted..being intentionally obtuse.

Because "as if" is not the same as "is". The rule for FLY explicitly states it only works in the movement phase, not when models are acting as if it were the movement phase. If it's not actually the movement phase, the rule doesn't do anything. That's all there is to it.

In this case it doesn't matter that Fly states movement phase, in that you are told you move as if it were the movement phase. Fly is an option you have for moving in the movement phase. If you can not fly, you are preventing a form of movement it has in the movement phase, which the rules do not tell you to do. It only says move as if it's the movement phase. If the unit flies, it's still moving as if it was the movement phase.

 doctortom wrote:
In this case it doesn't matter that Fly states movement phase, in that you are told you move as if it were the movement phase. Fly is an option you have for moving in the movement phase. If you can not fly, you are preventing a form of movement it has in the movement phase, which the rules do not tell you to do. It only says move as if it's the movement phase. If the unit flies, it's still moving as if it was the movement phase.

No, it is not. The rules ask "Is it the Movement Phase? If yes, do extra stuff." The answer is No, so you don't get to do extra stuff.

I guess we’re gonna go round this BCB-go-round again til another thread is locked. What a vital contribution to this subforum. <sigh>

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
In this case it doesn't matter that Fly states movement phase, in that you are told you move as if it were the movement phase. Fly is an option you have for moving in the movement phase. If you can not fly, you are preventing a form of movement it has in the movement phase, which the rules do not tell you to do. It only says move as if it's the movement phase. If the unit flies, it's still moving as if it was the movement phase.

No, it is not. The rules ask "Is it the Movement Phase? If yes, do extra stuff." The answer is No, so you don't get to do extra stuff.

Wrong.

For purposes of movement, the answer "is it the Movement Phase" is YES. You move like it's the movement phase.

JohnnyHell wrote:It's not hard to reconcile.

The unit is given permission to move as if it were the Movement Phase, including flying.

You can't play however use Movement Phase Stratagems as it isn't the Movement Phase, you're just borrowing that phase's rules for one specific action that otherwise has no rules to govern it.

This.

You have permission to move as if it were the movement phase. The unit has permission to fly in the movement phase, therefore fly is an option whenever it gets to move as if it's the movement phase. You don't have that phrasing for Charging, so you wouldn't get to fly there, but here where you are specifically told to move as if it were the movement phase, then you get to do exactly that - move as if it were the movement phase. This includes flying.


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 JohnnyHell wrote:
I guess we’re gonna go round this BCB-go-round again til another thread is locked. What a vital contribution to this subforum. <sigh>

Yes, it appears that way. Lovely *sigh*

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
In this case it doesn't matter that Fly states movement phase, in that you are told you move as if it were the movement phase. Fly is an option you have for moving in the movement phase. If you can not fly, you are preventing a form of movement it has in the movement phase, which the rules do not tell you to do. It only says move as if it's the movement phase. If the unit flies, it's still moving as if it was the movement phase.

No, it is not. The rules ask "Is it the Movement Phase? If yes, do extra stuff." The answer is No, so you don't get to do extra stuff.

Ah, the confusion makes more sense now. The rule isn't asking anything. It is permitting the unit to perform an action in the exact same manner as it would do in a different phase.
So the "question" you need ask is "Can the unit Fly in the movement phase?" If the answer is 'Yes', then it may also do so for Warptime

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 doctortom wrote:
Wrong.

Well in that case I concede the point. Your argument is in depth and well cited.

The rule is literally an If-Then statement. If <Condition>=True, then <Result>. The Condition is "Is it the movement phase?" When the game is in the Psychic Phase, by definition it is not in the Movement Phase.


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 Galef wrote:
Ah, the confusion makes more sense now. The rules isn't asking anything. It is permitting the unit to perform an action in the exact same manner as it would do in a different phase.
So "question" you need ask is "Can the unit Fly in the movement phase?" If the answer is 'Yes', then it may also do so for Warptime

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The rule is literally an If-Then statement.

Sometimes I fear BCB is using GW as a straw man for his frustrations with the inadequacies of linguistic expression.

The rules about FLY and WARPTIME are both pretty clear. I don't think it's useful to continue arguing about it simply to convince BCB.

The real question is probably more a RAI argument. Warptime simply means a model is repeating it's movement phase. I can't see why there would be a special restriction just for FLY and not any other rule related to movement.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rule is literally an If-Then statement.

Glad we agree:
IF you are using the rules for the movement phase, THEN you can Fly.
Warptime uses the rules for the movement phase, so a unit with FLY can fly

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GW already laid this out in Shooting FAQ for Tau EWO and similar stratagems. AS IF = IS for the purposes of that particular rule.

Fragile wrote:
GW already laid this out in Shooting FAQ for Tau EWO and similar stratagems. AS IF = IS for the purposes of that particular rule.

Yes, for THAT particular rule. It doesn't apply to anything else except Shooting out of Phase Stratagems.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
GW already laid this out in Shooting FAQ for Tau EWO and similar stratagems. AS IF = IS for the purposes of that particular rule.

Yes, for THAT particular rule. It doesn't apply to anything else except Shooting out of Phase Stratagems.

That's a really interesting interpretation.

Can you point to an example where you think AS-IF ceases to mean IS because it occurs in another phase?

That would go a long way to helping me understand your argument.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
GW already laid this out in Shooting FAQ for Tau EWO and similar stratagems. AS IF = IS for the purposes of that particular rule.

Yes, for THAT particular rule. It doesn't apply to anything else except Shooting out of Phase Stratagems.

but the statement of being told you move like it's the movement phase. applies, and since you can fly in the movement phase, you can fly when you move like it's the movement phase.

That's the precedent of the FAQ. You've been handy at quoting from other FAQs when you've found it served your needs, such as quoting the Death Guard FAQ about getting relics from the Death Guard and CSM codex both when you weren't talking about a situation involving Death Guard. You used it to justify another army with multiple faction detachments to get multiple relics. Here we have a FAQ directly addressing a situation where you get to do X as if it's the Xing phase. We have that situation here, and the precedent merely confirms what we already know from understanding the English language, that you can move as if it's the movement phase so therefore however you could move in the movement phase applies here.

Thank you all guys for debating this, but i think at least some are missing the point. i know that it can fly ( its on magnus datasheet ) but the way i read it is that you are using the movement phase rules in the psycker phase, in order to rule a movement. the thorn is that in faq2 it states that a unit that haves fly can only ignore units and terrain in its movement phase. still...am i performing the move in my psycker phase or do i jump back to my movement phase?

snaegr wrote:
Thank you all guys for debating this, but i think at least some are missing the point. i know that it can fly ( its on magnus datasheet ) but the way i read it is that you are using the movement phase rules in the psycker phase, in order to rule a movement. the thorn is that in faq2 it states that a unit that haves fly can only ignore units and terrain in its movement phase. still...am i performing the move in my psycker phase or do i jump back to my movement phase?

If something says move as if it's the movement phase, then you get to do whatever type of movement you can that you could do in the movement phase. You couldn't play a stratagem as if it's the movement phase, as you don't have permission for that, but you have explicit permission to move as if it were the movement phase. Since you ignore units in terrain in your movement phase, you get to ignor units and terrain when you move as if it were the movement phase. It it merely said move you wouldn't, but saying "as if it were the movement phase" lets you take advantage of your movement rules that work in the movement phase.

Is it wrong I just pop into these threads to watch BCB attempt to prove how the world is wrong but he is right?

 doctortom wrote:

snaegr wrote:
Thank you all guys for debating this, but i think at least some are missing the point. i know that it can fly ( its on magnus datasheet ) but the way i read it is that you are using the movement phase rules in the psycker phase, in order to rule a movement. the thorn is that in faq2 it states that a unit that haves fly can only ignore units and terrain in its movement phase. still...am i performing the move in my psycker phase or do i jump back to my movement phase?

If something says move as if it's the movement phase, then you get to do whatever type of movement you can that you could do in the movement phase. You couldn't play a stratagem as if it's the movement phase, as you don't have permission for that, but you have explicit permission to move as if it were the movement phase. Since you ignore units in terrain in your movement phase, you get to ignor units and terrain when you move as if it were the movement phase. It it merely said move you wouldn't, but saying "as if it were the movement phase" lets you take advantage of your movement rules that work in the movement phase.

That is not true. To use an analogy, you drive to work on Tuesday on Road A, Friday on Road B. The speed limit is 50 on Tuesdays, 60 on Fridays. On Tuesday, you're told to drive to work as if it were Friday. How fast can you go without breaking the law?

 Elbows wrote:
Is it wrong I just pop into these threads to watch BCB attempt to prove how the world is wrong but he is right?

No... though posting about it without contributing anything else is wrong

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

snaegr wrote:
Thank you all guys for debating this, but i think at least some are missing the point. i know that it can fly ( its on magnus datasheet ) but the way i read it is that you are using the movement phase rules in the psycker phase, in order to rule a movement. the thorn is that in faq2 it states that a unit that haves fly can only ignore units and terrain in its movement phase. still...am i performing the move in my psycker phase or do i jump back to my movement phase?

If something says move as if it's the movement phase, then you get to do whatever type of movement you can that you could do in the movement phase. You couldn't play a stratagem as if it's the movement phase, as you don't have permission for that, but you have explicit permission to move as if it were the movement phase. Since you ignore units in terrain in your movement phase, you get to ignor units and terrain when you move as if it were the movement phase. It it merely said move you wouldn't, but saying "as if it were the movement phase" lets you take advantage of your movement rules that work in the movement phase.

That is not true. To use an analogy, you drive to work on Tuesday on Road A, Friday on Road B. The speed limit is 50 on Tuesdays, 60 on Fridays. On Tuesday, you're told to drive to work as if it were Friday. How fast can you go without breaking the law?

In game terms, 60, because your analogy doesn't match up. You can't drive to work as if it were Friday if you set up driving conditions that don't apply during Friday.

The ACTUAL rules say that you can move as if it were the movement phase. In the movement phase you are told you can ignore intervening units and terrain. Therefore, when you are told to move like it's the movement phase you ignore intervening units and terrain. If you claim they can't, then you are ignoring the rules that they can move like it's the movement phase. Moving is not the same as moving as if it were the movement phase, just see charging for an example where you get to move but are not given permission to move as if it were the movement phase.

And again, you are ignoring the errata that clearly states the FLY rule ONLY works when it's the actual movement phase. It doesn't matter if you're acting as if it were the movement phase. By your logic I get to use the Command Re-roll again.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And again, you are ignoring the errata that clearly states the FLY rule ONLY works when it's the actual movement phase.

Please quote the errata then.

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And again, you are ignoring the errata that clearly states the FLY rule ONLY works when it's the actual movement phase.

Please quote the errata then.

I did in the first reply, which should have been the end of it. Here it is again. "If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there."

Is it the Movement Phase when you cast Warptime? Yes or No, one word answer please.

snaegr wrote:
Thank you all guys for debating this, but i think at least some are missing the point. i know that it can fly ( its on magnus datasheet ) but the way i read it is that you are using the movement phase rules in the psycker phase, in order to rule a movement. the thorn is that in faq2 it states that a unit that haves fly can only ignore units and terrain in its movement phase. still...am i performing the move in my psycker phase or do i jump back to my movement phase?

The FAQ mainly stopped units from using Fly during an assault move, as the charge phase has it's own rules for movement.
Fly is a rule that only works in the movement phase, thus any movement done specifically using the rules for the movement phase may also use Fly.
Assaulting uses it's own rules, not those laid out in the movement phase.

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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And again, you are ignoring the errata that clearly states the FLY rule ONLY works when it's the actual movement phase.

Please quote the errata then.

I did in the first reply, which should have been the end of it. Here it is again. "If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there."

Is it the Movement Phase when you cast Warptime? Yes or No, one word answer please.

Sorry, we don't play that game here. Your answer is yes, for purposes of Movement. "move as if it were the movement phase" includes special movement rules that you can use during the movement phase. Trying to deny somebody the use of FLY when they are specifically told that they can move as if it were the movement phase is cheating your opponent out of rightful movement that he has explicitly been given permission to do. Move as if it were the movement phase means any movement you could do, which includes movement which you are told you can do during the movement phase as you are given specific permission by the statement.

I think we're done here.