Switch Theme:

Alternate energy sources.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I thought utility companies, like electric and water, couldn't shut off services to customers in the UK. They can let a bill go unpaid for so long and then are required to install a meter into the house (which might or might not require a warrant to gain entry/access to a property to install said meter).

Also power suppliers are split, the companies most customers deal with are just a middle-man company who buy bulk power from the powerstations. So in theory if one company is cutting service because of reduced income the islanders can surely get another to replace them. Whilst it might be a little more complicated (ego the whole island is under one service) the whole infrastructure is there so I don't quite get why its become so complicated (unless the infrastructure is in die need of repair/upgrade)

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Overread wrote:
Heck From what I gather the USA could make a vast saving in heat if they could ween themselves off in-door air-conditioning.


Lol no. Clearly you haven't lived in the south if you think this is a possible thing. AC is not optional in many parts of the US, it's a requirement for being able to live here.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Peregrine wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Heck From what I gather the USA could make a vast saving in heat if they could ween themselves off in-door air-conditioning.


Lol no. Clearly you haven't lived in the south if you think this is a possible thing. AC is not optional in many parts of the US, it's a requirement for being able to live here.

Not true. People lived there before air-conditioning was ever invented. I used to live in a pretty warm place without air conditioning. I never missed it (I doubt I even knew such a thing existed). People live without air-conditioning in places that get far hotter than the southern US too. Hell, Humans evolved in a place that is warmer than the southern US, so I am more than 100% certain that you can live there perfectly fine without air-conditioning. Unlike heating in cold climates, air-conditioning in warm climates is a luxury, not a necessity, and people that have never had it won't even miss it.
That said, I doubt household air-conditioning is having a massive impact on energy usage. Usually it is stuff like industrial plants, street lights etc. Just looking at the statistics for Louisiana (which I think is one of the warmest US states?), all households in total use up only 7.5% of the state's energy consumption. So for air-conditioning you are likely looking at something that is much less than 1% of the state's energy consumption for what is a very intrusive measure that has a big impact on people's lives and freedoms. In other words, turning off air-conditioning is just not worth it. If you want to look for energy savings you need to look at the industry and transport sectors.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Monarchy of TBD

As a counterpoint, heat is every bit as lethal as cold, and is a major cause of death in countries without air conditioning in certain climates.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/heat-and-health/heat-and-health-assessment-published

France has lost up to 10,000 in a single heat wave- in Paris. A city that has an average summer high of 77 in August. I live in Florida, which is far from the hottest part of the southern USA. Next Monday, December 3rd, is going to have a high of 89 degrees.

Without air conditioning we would have many more deaths from heat related causes, particularly in the hotter southwestern states.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Heat and cold are killers, but at the same time you can build better structures to help mitigate both those elements quite significantly before you start to use heat/cooling machines.
Sometimes a shift in social attitudes can also help. In many nations we doggedly stick to our 9-5 workday (more or less) even though the weather and seasons change quite considerably through the year. Shifting to a siesta pattern during hotter summer periods could be a big saver for many as opposed to working through the hottest part of the day

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The BBC reports on the nuclear clean-up operation at Sellafield (what used to be called WIndscale, but they changed the name after an embarrassing incident in the 1950s.)


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






I can't dig any articles up at the moment, but there's the problem that climate change could mean some marginally-habitable areas (the desert areas of the USA and Mexico, the Middle East and others) could become too hot for human habitation without artificial cooling.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-countries-that-will-be-so-hot-by-2100-humans-won-t-be-able-to-go-outside-a6710121.html

Not every day, perhaps, but if it's impossible for builders, traffic wardens, farmers and gardeners to do their jobs then there's an issue.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Overread wrote:
Heat and cold are killers, but at the same time you can build better structures to help mitigate both those elements quite significantly before you start to use heat/cooling machines.
Sometimes a shift in social attitudes can also help. In many nations we doggedly stick to our 9-5 workday (more or less) even though the weather and seasons change quite considerably through the year. Shifting to a siesta pattern during hotter summer periods could be a big saver for many as opposed to working through the hottest part of the day


Yes.

People manage to survive and thrive in much more extreme conditions than SW USA.

The difficulty is trying to live a northern European life-style in a completely different sort of climate.

But let's not blame Americans. The Japanese have very hot, humid summers and use a lot of air conditioning. They also conform to the "anglo-saxon" pace of life.

There's lots that can be done to change this, for instance different type of architecture and changes around working time. Look at the Spanish siesta, for example. It's a way of avoiding the heat of the early afternoon. Spaniards tend to start work earlier, and stay up later in the evening when it's cool.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Overread wrote:
I thought utility companies, like electric and water, couldn't shut off services to customers in the UK. They can let a bill go unpaid for so long and then are required to install a meter into the house (which might or might not require a warrant to gain entry/access to a property to install said meter).

Also power suppliers are split, the companies most customers deal with are just a middle-man company who buy bulk power from the powerstations. So in theory if one company is cutting service because of reduced income the islanders can surely get another to replace them. Whilst it might be a little more complicated (ego the whole island is under one service) the whole infrastructure is there so I don't quite get why its become so complicated (unless the infrastructure is in die need of repair/upgrade)


Sark isn't official part of the UK, it's got it's own laws etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sark

so any company is free to stop trading with it whenever they like

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Peregrine wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Heck From what I gather the USA could make a vast saving in heat if they could ween themselves off in-door air-conditioning.


Lol no. Clearly you haven't lived in the south if you think this is a possible thing. AC is not optional in many parts of the US, it's a requirement for being able to live here.

Yeah...no kidding.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Just Tony wrote:
It's the reason California is next to an OCEAN yet can't seem to desalinate seawater (an inexpensive process) to solve both its supply AND drought issues.



Based on what I've read on the subject, desalination plants that can produce as much water as California needs are quite the opposite of what you're saying, ie, they're expensive as hell.

Additionally, I think if you booted the almond industry from California, you'd free up billions, if not trillions of gallons of water.

Neither of which things are energy sources related to this thread. Hydro dams have seen a sort of spike in costs, as, for instance the Bonneville dam that blocks part of the Columbia River, once science people recognized the actual damage (not even gonna touch your disparaging remark on fish) being done to the total environment, paid millions of dollars to engineer/re-engineer features in the dam system that would allow for proper salmon migration and thus attempt to correct some damage done to the environment.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

According to this web page, California does use desalination but it's an expensive process so it isn't widely used.

https://water.usgs.gov/edu/drinkseawater.html

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Is this the thread to ask why hydrogen powered cars aren’t a bigger thing yet?
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The big companies are working on hydrogen powered cars. I think the main problem is how to deliver the fuel.

Large scale production and distribution of liquid hydrogen is more difficult than plumbing chargers for electric vehicles into the existing electricity infrastructure.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Don't hydrogen cars also tend to make quite a big explosion when they blow up? I seem to recall that being one earlier barrier for them being released was trying to develop them so that they were not as destructive (or at least had the potential to be).

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Yeah. It’s a very dangerous fuel that can’t be stored efficiently in the vehicle’s fuel tanks. Every car is a Hindenburg disaster waiting to happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 23:21:55


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Big hydro dams have been deprecated for the reasons you mention, and others. Unfortunately, a lot of big schemes are going ahead anyway.


large dams are damaging to wetlands, fishing etc. The wells turbine used as part of sea/flood defences, is a far better bet.



Part of the problem with coal, was the way it was used. Ground into a fine powder, and mixed with water, then injected like fuel oil. Far better to have gasified it using waste water from the cooling towers. producing coke and methane gas. Using one to preheat the steam, and the other to super heat it



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Just Tony wrote:
And yes, I'm aware of our concern for the adorable fishies. It's the reason California is next to an OCEAN yet can't seem to desalinate seawater (an inexpensive process) to solve both its supply AND drought issues.


Desalinization is neither cheap nor easy. You have to pump water through a reverse osmosis filter... and you wind up only getting half the potable water out that you put in. The other half is now a brine that is twice as salty, and gets dumped back into the ocean. It's a pretty energy intensive process, the filters are not cheap when scaled up to an industrial scale, and the brine damages the local ecosystem - it turns out that saltwater-dwelling organisms can't cope with large increases in the salt content of the water.

Having said that, there are some desalinization plants in California. It's just not economical nor environmentally friendly to do it on the scale you're thinking.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Vulcan wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
And yes, I'm aware of our concern for the adorable fishies. It's the reason California is next to an OCEAN yet can't seem to desalinate seawater (an inexpensive process) to solve both its supply AND drought issues.


Desalinization is neither cheap nor easy. You have to pump water through a reverse osmosis filter... and you wind up only getting half the potable water out that you put in. The other half is now a brine that is twice as salty, and gets dumped back into the ocean. It's a pretty energy intensive process, the filters are not cheap when scaled up to an industrial scale, and the brine damages the local ecosystem - it turns out that saltwater-dwelling organisms can't cope with large increases in the salt content of the water.

Having said that, there are some desalinization plants in California. It's just not economical nor environmentally friendly to do it on the scale you're thinking.


Indeed. The other option is to evaporate the seawater and condense the vapor back into fresh water, but that is even more energy intense.

Of course, if the electricity was generated with nuclear power that would be less of a concern, and attaching a desalination plant to a nuclear plant would actually be pretty symbiotic as the nuclear power heats water to turn the turbines, the steam could then be turned into potable water.

This would only leave the brine as an issue. And even it has uses. Or instead of dumping it into the ocean we could just evaporate all the water entirely and dump the salts on land somewhere they won't damage the ecosystem.

Desalination as practiced today has issues. Which could be solved if there wasn't such an undeserved stigma around nuclear power.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Heck From what I gather the USA could make a vast saving in heat if they could ween themselves off in-door air-conditioning.


Lol no. Clearly you haven't lived in the south if you think this is a possible thing. AC is not optional in many parts of the US, it's a requirement for being able to live here.

Not true. People lived there before air-conditioning was ever invented. I used to live in a pretty warm place without air conditioning. I never missed it (I doubt I even knew such a thing existed). People live without air-conditioning in places that get far hotter than the southern US too. Hell, Humans evolved in a place that is warmer than the southern US, so I am more than 100% certain that you can live there perfectly fine without air-conditioning. Unlike heating in cold climates, air-conditioning in warm climates is a luxury, not a necessity, and people that have never had it won't even miss it.
That said, I doubt household air-conditioning is having a massive impact on energy usage. Usually it is stuff like industrial plants, street lights etc. Just looking at the statistics for Louisiana (which I think is one of the warmest US states?), all households in total use up only 7.5% of the state's energy consumption. So for air-conditioning you are likely looking at something that is much less than 1% of the state's energy consumption for what is a very intrusive measure that has a big impact on people's lives and freedoms. In other words, turning off air-conditioning is just not worth it. If you want to look for energy savings you need to look at the industry and transport sectors.


Sure, you can live without AC in the American south. That must be why every heat wave kills off a couple hundred old people and young children who can't afford air conditioning...

We get a bit sentimental about people like that dying off in job lots when the temperature hits 104 degrees F and over 80% humidity...

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Vulcan wrote:

Sure, you can live without AC in the American south. That must be why every heat wave kills off a couple hundred old people and young children who can't afford air conditioning...


Not sure how it is in other Southern states, but when I bought a house in TN, I was exposed to their real estate laws and housing requirements. . . So, in TN for instance, a structure built after 1899 (or so. . . don't remember the exact year. . . generally this applies to "historic" properties moreso than standard old houses) is deemed unlivable and cannot be bought, sold, or lived in unless it has working A/C. As in, apparently inspectors will "condemn" your house if the AC doesn't work.
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Yeah, boiling/condensing method would be ideal, and it wouldn't take much effort to refine the left over salt for use in those northern states that get frozen constantly. A few years ago Indiana had a salt shortage with ice storms a plenty. Cali could have had our money wholesale at that time.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah. It’s a very dangerous fuel that can’t be stored efficiently in the vehicle’s fuel tanks. Every car is a Hindenburg disaster waiting to happen.


Hydrogen is safer than petrol. If released from the tank it quickly boils off and ascends to the upper atmosphere being much lighter than air. Petrol washes all over the floor, creating a fire hazard over a wide area.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah. It’s a very dangerous fuel that can’t be stored efficiently in the vehicle’s fuel tanks. Every car is a Hindenburg disaster waiting to happen.


Hydrogen is safer than petrol. If released from the tank it quickly boils off and ascends to the upper atmosphere being much lighter than air. Petrol washes all over the floor, creating a fire hazard over a wide area.


I wouldn't say it is safer. It has different dangers.

Hydrogen gas is about 20 times more explosive than gasoline / and about 10x more flammable. So accidents doing damage to a hydrogen fuel cell carry a serious risk of explosions. Explosions are not safe. Though explosions are less likely to cause fires like gasoline - it's a quick blow out. Both carry risks. Personally on roads with lots of people explosions are more dangerous IMO.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/so-just-how-dangerous-is-hydrogen-fuel/

This page from Washington State University has lots of examples of Hydrogen compared to petrol.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Anyone remember that last year Richard Hammond crashed a top end electric car? I recall from their show that the batteries in it kept burning for several days after the crash happened. Whilst it wasn't explosive it certainly meant that the car had to stay where it was under watch whilst the batteries burned out. So that could already be very disruptive if you've got an active burning car on a roadway that you can't easily move aside; and even if you do someone has to stay there to keep an eye on it and ensure that the fire doesn't spread. All the while its then a nice little "oh what's that" distraction to passers by (seriously some road snarl-ups are simply caused by people driving a little slower to see something)

There's also the issue of electrical discharge whilst one effects a rescue. I can't find it now but I recall reading on reddit, or another forum, about a firefighter talking about how there are discharge points on the car to connect so that you can reduce the chance; but also that the general methods of breaking the car open to get someone out have to be refined and changed to account for hte new dangers and risks.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Yes. The page I posted mentions that Litium battery powered electric cars present some surprising conflagration hazards.

The design of the car must be involved in solving the potential problems.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Kilkrazy wrote:
https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/so-just-how-dangerous-is-hydrogen-fuel/

This page from Washington State University has lots of examples of Hydrogen compared to petrol.

Leaks carry very little risk of explosion. I'd like to see the test done with direct high speed impact completely severing a fuel tank or compressing it to the point it explodes due to increased pressure. I agree it will be safer in a lot of cases. When a hydrogen tank has a serious rupture - the explosion is going to be phenomenal. That is my concern.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The web page basically says that safety has been a concern of scientists and engineers for decades, and many tests have been done, and the conclusion is that Hydrogen is not risk free, but it's safer than petrol.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






It just seems to me that they aren't even addressing the key differences between the 2 fuels.

Gasoline is much less likely to ignite compared to hydrogen. In movies we see people flicking a match or a cigarette into a puddle of gasoline and BOOM! Except it really doesn't work like that. Gasoline is a lot less likely to catch than hydrogen. Car fires will be more common with hydrogen.

A lot of times accidents happen with cars crashing into houses/buildings/ect. That straight flame in above experiments link will set a house on fire in seconds - where a gasoline fuel might not have even lit up from a small ignition source.

I'm just saying - hydrogen is not "safer" than petrol. Both are dangerous.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: