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Give me the new fluff. Most of the characters have hilarious backstories. Trazyn and the guy who doesn't realize he's a robot are especially good.

Old Crons lacked the strength to be a real threat. There was no mass organization. save for the c'tan forces

While I prefer the potential of the new fluff, I'm a little disappointed by how the C'tan got sidelined. Maybe allowing the Deceiver and Nightbringer to escape and turn some dynasties to their will would be cool. So the C'tan forces would be the nameless doom (as the C'tan are weak and need to absorb a lot of life force), while the independent dynasties have more character and act more like empires. We could then give the C'tan pariahs and other newly converted living as they attempt to rebuild their armies. So players get to choose if they want the focus on necron characters or C'tan characters.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Give me the new fluff. Most of the characters have hilarious backstories. Trazyn and the guy who doesn't realize he's a robot are especially good.

Old Crons lacked the strength to be a real threat. There was no mass organization. save for the c'tan forces

Imo the old crons didn't need to mass organization to be a threat. You could find a piece of a monolith, feed it power and it would rebuild itself. Once it was a full monolith, it would dial up a nearby tombworld and start dumping crons on you.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Give me the new fluff. Most of the characters have hilarious backstories. Trazyn and the guy who doesn't realize he's a robot are especially good.

Old Crons lacked the strength to be a real threat. There was no mass organization. save for the c'tan forces

Imo the old crons didn't need to mass organization to be a threat. You could find a piece of a monolith, feed it power and it would rebuild itself. Once it was a full monolith, it would dial up a nearby tombworld and start dumping crons on you.

And at that point the only option was exterminatus when there's an awakened tomb world.

I really miss the endless legion vibe they used to have. Yes they have more character now I guess but the soulless horde they used to be is sadly missed

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Give me the new fluff. Most of the characters have hilarious backstories. Trazyn and the guy who doesn't realize he's a robot are especially good.

Old Crons lacked the strength to be a real threat. There was no mass organization. save for the c'tan forces

Imo the old crons didn't need to mass organization to be a threat. You could find a piece of a monolith, feed it power and it would rebuild itself. Once it was a full monolith, it would dial up a nearby tombworld and start dumping crons on you.

And at that point the only option was exterminatus when there's an awakened tomb world.

I really miss the endless legion vibe they used to have. Yes they have more character now I guess but the soulless horde they used to be is sadly missed

Would most exterminatus methods affect necrons? Especially ones in a deep underground tomb complex?

The life eater virus (common exterminatus weapon) might break down all bio matter and cause a firestorm of combustion as all the oxygen com it was released (in the 40k universe anyway...) but would it bother a necron tomb complex?

Cyclonic torpedoes create plasma vortexes that multiply and spread, burning the planets surface and destroying the atmosphere maybe. Again, maybe a tom complex just shuts the doors and waits it out.

Most forms of exterminatus just scour the biosphere. Necrons don't need air, food, water, etc. Unless the planet is basically blown like Alderaan or a massive asteroid bullseyes a necron tomb complex it seems they could just seal up their complex and play pinochle until the fires abated in most exterminatus cases.

I think one of the exterminatus methods involve completely destroying the planet by drilling an path to the planet's core then bombing it. I'm not sure though.
I do know though that its an absolute pain in the ass to destroy a tomb complex, and that the easiest way is actually to infiltrate it and plant explosives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Give me the new fluff. Most of the characters have hilarious backstories. Trazyn and the guy who doesn't realize he's a robot are especially good.

Old Crons lacked the strength to be a real threat. There was no mass organization. save for the c'tan forces

Did you miss the part where they reduce planets to dust and killed an order of sisters? Or the whole World Engine Fiasco, that wreaked havoc until a space marine chapter sacrificed themselves to destroy it? Or that necron ships managed to reach Mars's surface, making them the first threat to get close to a vital world in the Sol system since the Horus Heresy? Yeah, sure, no real threat.

The Necrons were a mass organization. They weren't splintered like they are now. They just need to be awakened and they will continuing carrying out the C'tan's will.

Interestingly, even the World Engine and its defeat were from the 5th Edition necron codex.

Prior to the 5th Edition Necron codex, the Necrons had no major defeats in the lore at all.

I kinda like both TBH.

The oldcrons are cool. I love the terrifying faceless creeping death aspect of them.

However the new ones have a 50’s B-movie horror vibe that’s really hokey in a way that I like. It’s very space invaders/War of the worlds.

I don't really see a problem with ultimately unbeatable foes in Warhammer like the Tyranids and Oldcrons, because the setting will never move towards a final conclusion. Battling against impossible odds is a ubiquitous motive in fiction, so it works really well on a large scale. On a smaller scale, on the tabletop or in narrative campaigns, a tyranid invasion can be fought off which would be considered a major victory for everyone involved, so there is still quite a lot of room for gratification on both sides.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interestingly, even the World Engine and its defeat were from the 5th Edition necron codex.

Prior to the 5th Edition Necron codex, the Necrons had no major defeats in the lore at all.

Wasn't there a world engine prior to the 5th ed codex? Or was it something else? I could have sworn reading something like that before 5th ed dropped.
Or maybe I was just thinking of Necron ships in general.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interestingly, even the World Engine and its defeat were from the 5th Edition necron codex.

Prior to the 5th Edition Necron codex, the Necrons had no major defeats in the lore at all.

Wasn't there a world engine prior to the 5th ed codex? Or was it something else? I could have sworn reading something like that before 5th ed dropped.
Or maybe I was just thinking of Necron ships in general.

Oldcron ships had inertialess drives and teleported (or rather accelerated indefinitely) between points, rather than using the warp. They were sapient and constructed of solid-hulled living metal. Their weapons didn't exist as individual weapons, but rather a store of power that could be discharged in any number of ways based on how the weapon "grew" (so in Battlefleet Gothic, instead of having two 10-strength macrocannon batteries like the Mars-class imperial battlecruiser, which could fire one on each side, the Necron tombship had a 20-strength weapon that could be split among any targets anywhere. So it could be 5 4-strength weapons firing at little escorts, or one single 20-strength beam to shoot a battleship. It depended on what you wanted).

Inertialess drives are still a thing, the living metal is still a thing. The Fall of Damnos space battle is still a thing.

Newcrons are still the most powerful space navy in the galaxy in terms of individual ships and technological advantages.

And infinite acceleration is not teleportation.

Tyran wrote:
Inertialess drives are still a thing, the living metal is still a thing. The Fall of Damnos space battle is still a thing.

Newcrons are still the most powerful space navy in the galaxy in terms of individual ships and technological advantages.

I thought they took away the inertialess drives in favor of necrons using Dolmen Gates or some other kind of 'warp but not warp' tech stolen from the Eldar?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Inertialess drives are still a thing, the living metal is still a thing. The Fall of Damnos space battle is still a thing.

Newcrons are still the most powerful space navy in the galaxy in terms of individual ships and technological advantages.

I thought they took away the inertialess drives in favor of necrons using Dolmen Gates or some other kind of 'warp but not warp' tech stolen from the Eldar?

The Dolmen Gates involve interstellar travel. Inertialess drives involve interplanetary travel and combat maneuvering.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Inertialess drives are still a thing, the living metal is still a thing. The Fall of Damnos space battle is still a thing.

Newcrons are still the most powerful space navy in the galaxy in terms of individual ships and technological advantages.

I thought they took away the inertialess drives in favor of necrons using Dolmen Gates or some other kind of 'warp but not warp' tech stolen from the Eldar?

The Dolmen Gates involve interstellar travel. Inertialess drives involve interplanetary travel and combat maneuvering.

Right, okay. When I said inertialess drives for the Oldcrons, I think it was their only method of travel so they didn't become fops who basically wouldn't've been capable without stealing from the Eldar.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Inertialess drives are still a thing, the living metal is still a thing. The Fall of Damnos space battle is still a thing.

Newcrons are still the most powerful space navy in the galaxy in terms of individual ships and technological advantages.

I thought they took away the inertialess drives in favor of necrons using Dolmen Gates or some other kind of 'warp but not warp' tech stolen from the Eldar?

The Dolmen Gates involve interstellar travel. Inertialess drives involve interplanetary travel and combat maneuvering.

Right, okay. When I said inertialess drives for the Oldcrons, I think it was their only method of travel so they didn't become fops who basically wouldn't've been capable without stealing from the Eldar.

What fluff came out before 5th Edition made it seem like a portal or gate that they traveled through. If one didn't have a complete visual on them, it would seem like teleporting. Eldar operate similar, so it's not a huge stretch making them use the same "universe" to do interstellar travel, even if access isn't the same.

Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oldcron ships had inertialess drives and teleported (or rather accelerated indefinitely) between points, rather than using the warp.

But that's utter nonsense. Of course whole FTL and Warp are nonsense too, but at least the warp travel works in completely ludicrously fantastic way to begin with. But you just cannot accelerate past the light speed, be there inertia or not. This is something that is known. It is like saying that you could lift yourself in the air by pulling your own hair, if you only pulled hard enough.

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oldcron ships had inertialess drives and teleported (or rather accelerated indefinitely) between points, rather than using the warp.

But that's utter nonsense. Of course whole FTL and Warp are nonsense too, but at least the warp travel works in completely ludicrously fantastic way to begin with. But you just cannot accelerate past the light speed, be there inertia or not. This is something that is known. It is like saying that you could lift yourself in the air by pulling your own hair, if you only pulled hard enough.

Hey man, if this is where your suspension of disbelief stops, wait until I tell you about Tyranid FTL...

No matter what, I will always love the newcrons for kicking their gods squarely in the groin after they were hosed over by them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oldcron ships had inertialess drives and teleported (or rather accelerated indefinitely) between points, rather than using the warp.

But that's utter nonsense. Of course whole FTL and Warp are nonsense too, but at least the warp travel works in completely ludicrously fantastic way to begin with. But you just cannot accelerate past the light speed, be there inertia or not. This is something that is known. It is like saying that you could lift yourself in the air by pulling your own hair, if you only pulled hard enough.

Hey man, if this is where your suspension of disbelief stops, wait until I tell you about Tyranid FTL...

Tyranid FTL is just a gravity based Alcubierre drive.

The only thing that does not truly makes sense about it is that it should also be time travel. (then again that applies to all types of FTL)

Ultimately Oldcron lore is superior because it is better to have characters with entry-level writing quality creating depth than the cop-out of "you can't understand it" which is nothing but a lazy excuse. I say this as a Lovecraft, the incomprehensible unknowable horror that you can't describe because you can't understand it is a writing crutch and gakky excuse for want of world building and character exploration.

That said with your typical GW writing quality the most we've gotten out of Newcrons has been comic-book style characters which one could argue aesthetically clash with the established current setting. Which with I could and would agree; I like the idea of Newcrons as developed xenos characters with flaws and growth. But the execution has been mostly short of that mark, opting in stead for puns and running gags with characters like Trazyn.

Frankly the best Necron character to date was probably that one Necron Lady with an established relationship (platonic) with a Lychguardess eons ago.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Ultimately Oldcron lore is superior because it is better to have characters with entry-level writing quality creating depth than the cop-out of "you can't understand it" which is nothing but a lazy excuse. I say this as a Lovecraft, the incomprehensible unknowable horror that you can't describe because you can't understand it is a writing crutch and gakky excuse for want of world building and character exploration.

Character and worldbuilding aren't always necessary for everything, fear of the unknown and unknowable is a perfectly valid narrative element, it's what makes horror work, and plays and element in all such stories. A simple dark empty hole in the ground can evoke all sorts of imaginative emotions and thoughts without needing anything direct to play off of.

What matters is the perspective desired. If one wants a tale of a putz guardsmen facing the unfathomable horrors of the universe, it works great for a story like that. If one wants a fleshed out background for a faction in an accessible, customizable, and copyrightable manner for a tabletop game, where you need to sell defined units, weapons, characters, etc, well then it doesn't work so much, which is why GW changed it.

That said with your typical GW writing quality the most we've gotten out of Newcrons has been comic-book style characters which one could argue aesthetically clash with the established current setting. Which with I could and would agree; I like the idea of Newcrons as developed xenos characters with flaws and growth. But the execution has been mostly short of that mark, opting in stead for puns and running gags with characters like Trazyn.

This id agree withm there's a lot of ways they could have pivoted the Oldcron fluff. Tomb Kings in spaaaaace with a gag mad scientist was not the best way to handle that

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Ultimately Oldcron lore is superior because it is better to have characters with entry-level writing quality creating depth than the cop-out of "you can't understand it" which is nothing but a lazy excuse. I say this as a Lovecraft, the incomprehensible unknowable horror that you can't describe because you can't understand it is a writing crutch and gakky excuse for want of world building and character exploration.

Character and worldbuilding aren't always necessary for everything, fear of the unknown and unknowable is a perfectly valid narrative element, it's what makes horror work, and plays and element in all such stories. A simple dark empty hole in the ground can evoke all sorts of imaginative emotions and thoughts without needing anything direct to play off of.

What matters is the perspective desired. If one wants a tale of a putz guardsmen facing the unfathomable horrors of the universe, it works great for a story like that. If one wants a fleshed out background for a faction in an accessible, customizable, and copyrightable manner for a tabletop game, where you need to sell defined units, weapons, characters, etc, well then it doesn't work so much, which is why GW changed it.

A simple dark hole in the ground is one thing, but when you've got three factions that are simple dark holes in the ground, things start to get redundant. Oldcrons only make sense in a universe absent of Chaos and Tyranids as a narrative force. When you've got Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids, two of them need to step down before completely over-saturating the sense of dread and rendering it mundane.

That said with your typical GW writing quality the most we've gotten out of Newcrons has been comic-book style characters which one could argue aesthetically clash with the established current setting. Which with I could and would agree; I like the idea of Newcrons as developed xenos characters with flaws and growth. But the execution has been mostly short of that mark, opting in stead for puns and running gags with characters like Trazyn.

This id agree withm there's a lot of ways they could have pivoted the Oldcron fluff. Tomb Kings in spaaaaace with a gag mad scientist was not the best way to handle that

 Wyzilla wrote:
[
A simple dark hole in the ground is one thing, but when you've got three factions that are simple dark holes in the ground, things start to get redundant. Oldcrons only make sense in a universe absent of Chaos and Tyranids as a narrative force. When you've got Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids, two of them need to step down before completely over-saturating the sense of dread and rendering it mundane.

That may be a more valid point, though oversaturation and turning things up to 11 is also a pretty 40k thing

The criminal thing is that while copying Tomb Kings, they didn't even copy the well developed and interesting Tomb King characters. Settra in space would leagues better than Trazyn the eclectic collector who pokeballs random people.

I concur

Dolmen Gates should get a prize for stupidity.

I think oldcrons and Chaos were fine. One is the inner flaws killing you and the other is an unknowable external foe. Then you had the interesting part of reality vs the warp going on.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
[
A simple dark hole in the ground is one thing, but when you've got three factions that are simple dark holes in the ground, things start to get redundant. Oldcrons only make sense in a universe absent of Chaos and Tyranids as a narrative force. When you've got Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids, two of them need to step down before completely over-saturating the sense of dread and rendering it mundane.

That may be a more valid point, though oversaturation and turning things up to 11 is also a pretty 40k thing

The criminal thing is that while copying Tomb Kings, they didn't even copy the well developed and interesting Tomb King characters. Settra in space would leagues better than Trazyn the eclectic collector who pokeballs random people.

I concur

I have high hopes for the Silent King, who will be likely featured in inevitable Necron expansions, to be a decent character and less of a meme than Trazyn and friends. Certainly his lore on his character has been handled better, with him being a species-minded Necrontyr-ist that also suffers from the emotional weight of his failures and will pursue any means to save his people, even if it entails working with humanity.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

Wyzilla wrote:The criminal thing is that while copying Tomb Kings, they didn't even copy the well developed and interesting Tomb King characters. Settra in space would leagues better than Trazyn the eclectic collector who pokeballs random people.

Even worse is introducing the Fallen King of the Flayed Ones, yet doing absolutely NOTHING ELSE with him but a teasing page of fluff.

The new Crons are unplayable in a competitive setting if you ask me. I played Crons in the 6th and 7th ed winning several local tourneys with them. But now I shelved them and I unshelved my Eldar.

Dude, you are missing the entire point of the thread.

Oldcrons refers to before the 5th edition. It is about lore, not about gameplay.