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Wyzilla wrote: Actually it would be important for them to breed if it were possible simply because it would ensure that their offspring would continue to distribute the genes making descending males suitable for geneseed transplant.
That's a really good point that I bet no one has considered.
It's often brought up when people discuss the stupid and wasteful recruitment practices of certain Chapters, but then it's dismissed as unimportant. Let's have all suitable boys aged 10-12 do something really dangerous like walk across a desert, fight wild beasts or even each other, then after 90% have died we take the rest as recruits. Yeah...
The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
Space Marines could also just clone the boys should they believe they have a problem with their gene stock or change recruitment grounds (can they do that?). I always thought the genetic condition necessary to become a Space Marine were relatively common in the 10-25% of the male population range else recruitment would be very difficult for Marines.
Wyzilla wrote: Actually it would be important for them to breed if it were possible simply because it would ensure that their offspring would continue to distribute the genes making descending males suitable for geneseed transplant.
That's a really good point that I bet no one has considered.
It's often brought up when people discuss the stupid and wasteful recruitment practices of certain Chapters, but then it's dismissed as unimportant. Let's have all suitable boys aged 10-12 do something really dangerous like walk across a desert, fight wild beasts or even each other, then after 90% have died we take the rest as recruits. Yeah...
'
Sure, we as readers outside of the universe can view their practices as wasteful or weakening the gene pool of the population they recruit from, but the Space Marines don't view it that way. .The Space Marines, just like the Imperium, does not operate based on a rational materialist perspective. For all their denials, it is clear the Space Marines are just as religious as the followers of the Ecclesiarchy, just varying in the details. The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
Iracundus wrote: Sure, we as readers outside of the universe can view their practices as wasteful or weakening the gene pool of the population they recruit from, but the Space Marines don't view it that way. .The Space Marines, just like the Imperium, does not operate based on a rational materialist perspective. For all their denials, it is clear the Space Marines are just as religious as the followers of the Ecclesiarchy, just varying in the details. The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
They don't really need physical finess in my opinion. They will receive a brand new body anyway and they haven't hit puberty yet. Space Marine aren't trained as much as they are built. They don't need to spend a second doing physical conditioning or learning how to shoot in adverse situation or to operate and communicate in the cacophony of battles. They have special organs that allow them to do that as naturaly as breathing. But you are right about Space Marines valuing immensely martial traditions and superstition far more than any rational argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 05:44:46
The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
Space Marines could also just clone the boys should they believe they have a problem with their gene stock or change recruitment grounds (can they do that?). I always thought the genetic condition necessary to become a Space Marine were relatively common in the 10-25% of the male population range else recruitment would be very difficult for Marines.
It's common initially. But over the course of ten thousand years you have a Chapter like the Blood Angels conscripting mass amounts of the feral world male children that will end up dying, but even if they survive they are still effectively removed from the breeding population. On top of that the naturally hostile conditions of the planet are also whittling away at the population, likely taking out chunks of those also passing the traits increasing the odds of gene seed acceptance. That's not going to spell low attrition rates and high levels of acceptance from that population in the distant future. Then there's other issues to, as taking the young males from a feral world population could possibly doom the family unit. If you're a small tribe living in a completely hostile environment and the Chapter takes a couple boys from your tribe, that's on top of child mortality rates and cause of violent death by animal or disaster. You could lose a sizable chunk of your male population that would endanger the tribe's collective survival. Having a trait that increases odds of gene seed acceptance is a net negative in the eyes of natural selection, not a boon.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Iracundus wrote: The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
What's more, they might well be correct in that belief. Remember that the Emperor used warp-magic as much as science in creating the Primarch/Astartes project. We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
The example of the Afriel Strain indicates that an army of clones may end up being cursed.
Strength of spirit seems seems to matter and so does the type of spirit. Space Wolves and Ultramarines seem to recruit for different personalities and I think that may have a lot to do with gene seed compatibility.
Iracundus wrote: Sure, we as readers outside of the universe can view their practices as wasteful or weakening the gene pool of the population they recruit from, but the Space Marines don't view it that way. .The Space Marines, just like the Imperium, does not operate based on a rational materialist perspective. For all their denials, it is clear the Space Marines are just as religious as the followers of the Ecclesiarchy, just varying in the details. The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
They don't really need physical finess in my opinion. They will receive a brand new body anyway and they haven't hit puberty yet. Space Marine aren't trained as much as they are built. They don't need to spend a second doing physical conditioning or learning how to shoot in adverse situation or to operate and communicate in the cacophony of battles. They have special organs that allow them to do that as naturaly as breathing. But you are right about Space Marines valuing immensely martial traditions and superstition far more than any rational argument.
Yet, in another thread, you stated the exact opposite:
"Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy."
And ofc they need training. Their organs do not teach them to...
The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
Space Marines could also just clone the boys should they believe they have a problem with their gene stock or change recruitment grounds (can they do that?). I always thought the genetic condition necessary to become a Space Marine were relatively common in the 10-25% of the male population range else recruitment would be very difficult for Marines.
It's common initially. But over the course of ten thousand years you have a Chapter like the Blood Angels conscripting mass amounts of the feral world male children that will end up dying, but even if they survive they are still effectively removed from the breeding population. On top of that the naturally hostile conditions of the planet are also whittling away at the population, likely taking out chunks of those also passing the traits increasing the odds of gene seed acceptance. That's not going to spell low attrition rates and high levels of acceptance from that population in the distant future. Then there's other issues to, as taking the young males from a feral world population could possibly doom the family unit. If you're a small tribe living in a completely hostile environment and the Chapter takes a couple boys from your tribe, that's on top of child mortality rates and cause of violent death by animal or disaster. You could lose a sizable chunk of your male population that would endanger the tribe's collective survival. Having a trait that increases odds of gene seed acceptance is a net negative in the eyes of natural selection, not a boon.
I couldn't agree more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 15:53:37
Andersp90 wrote: Yet, in another thread, you stated the exact opposite:
"Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy."
Make up your mind.
Recruitment pool is poorer because less numerous, more likely to be filled with parasites and diseases, like ricket for example, which would decrease the chance of a human child surviving the implantation surgeries. A smaller poool reduces your chances of finding a rare talent for combat, especially since Space Marine recruit from a civilian population which might not nurture warfare beyond tribal skirmishes. It also reduces you chance of hitting a genius, brain needs good quality food and environment to develop properly. They aren't poorer because the children used to recruit Scions and Sisters a bigger, stronger, faster then those of the Space Marines even though it's probably the case on average. That's not really pertinent considering Space Marines are outfitted with new bodies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/25 02:46:47
I believe that the Marine's lack of interest in sexual activity was fully intended by the Emperor, the marines were meant to be pure conquers, not distracted by pillage and rapine. IIRC this was touted as a superiority over the Thunder Warriors, who by all accounts seem driven by more conventional desires. This is mostly speculation, but I think I've read of it somewhere, maybe in the Thunder Warrior HH book, or in some of the HH rule books. I could have just as easily made it up or incorrectly inferred it.
Lotus Corgi wrote: I believe that the Marine's lack of interest in sexual activity was fully intended by the Emperor, the marines were meant to be pure conquers, not distracted by pillage and rapine. IIRC this was touted as a superiority over the Thunder Warriors, who by all accounts seem driven by more conventional desires. This is mostly speculation, but I think I've read of it somewhere, maybe in the Thunder Warrior HH book, or in some of the HH rule books. I could have just as easily made it up or incorrectly inferred it.
I personnaly thought it was for religious reasons. Space Marines are an all male order of knightly monks. Monastic lifestyle usually dictate vows of chastity, temperence and poverty.
Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world, maintaining extensive sperm banks of recruits and doling out financial or social benefits to women willing to raise up recruits for them, eventually resulting in matriarchal noble houses dominating the civilian side of the planet, with a corresponding knightly self-identity emerging among later generations of space marines.
Or a chapter that solved its problem by straight-up cloning one ideal recruit, throwing the kids into a desert/slum/jungle, and recruiting the survivors.
"The sword can be anklebiter as well as throatcleaver. We need no new weapons to defeat the sons of the hydra, merely new doctrines."
-Joriah Stendall, second Chapter Master of the Red Grail Crusaders
Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Andersp90 wrote: Yet, in another thread, you stated the exact opposite:
"Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy."
Make up your mind.
Recruitment pool is poorer because less numerous, more likely to be filled with parasites and diseases, like ricket for example, which would decrease the chance of a human child surviving the implantation surgeries. A smaller poool reduces your chances of finding a rare talent for combat. It also reduces you chance of hitting a genius, brain needs good quality food and environment to develop properly. They aren't poorer because the children used to recruit Scions and Sisters a bigger, stronger, faster then those of the Space Marines even though it's probably the case on average. That's not really pertinent considering Space Marines are outfitted with new bodies.
This "SM vs scions" boils down to just two factors.
1. Talent
2. Size of recruitment pool.
Scions are not picked based on their talent, but by the sole fact that they are of noble blood.
Astates aspirants are picked soley on their talent for combat
Training can NEVER compete with raw talent. Just look at soccer. No amount of traning will EVER get you into the proffisional league if you do not have talent.
The scions only recruit from the noble houses which are a small minority on any world (save for mabye terra).
The astartes are picked from all walks of life. Their recruitment pool can count in the hundred of millions.
DA and ultramarines also pick from the noble houses - other chapters could too.
And it dosent matter if an astartes aspirant is dumb as a nail - because:
"Indoctrination – A Marine is more than a human with extraordinary powers. Marines have extraordinary minds as well! Just as their bodies receive 19 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described previously. For example, a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill an ordinary man. A Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the indoctrination too. Some Marines develop photographic memories. Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree. And thus is born another of the Imperium's finest warriors, an adamantium link in the armour of the Imperium."
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
Back on topic, what IS it with nerd fandoms where people's thoughts eventually turn towards the genitalia of whatever fictional thing they follow? I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
That is a possibility. But that doesn't mean the urge to procreate and the "equipment" by which to do it with is not there.
That 'urge' has been redirected.
Note the scene in Fulgrim in the theatre. While the regular humans in the audience get standard ol' naughty thoughts as a result of the performance, in the Marines it is channeled out as aggression instead, as that's explained as the only outlet they have for it.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
By changing the suppression or expression of different genes. This can be done in many ways without changing the DNA itself.
A good example would be myostatin. It is a hormon that inhibits muscle growth/insures that you do not grow more muscle than needed.
If you add an inhibitor of myostatin you get this:
Andersp90 wrote: Scions are not picked based on their talent, but by the sole fact that they are of noble blood.
What? Is that new fluff? They aren't from Schola Progenia anymore?
For Sisters it's still any war orphan, basically. Could be the daughter of a random guard.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
By changing the suppression or expression of different genes. This can be done in many ways without changing the DNA itself.
A good example would be myostatin. It is a hormon that inhibits muscle growth/insures that you do not grow more muscle than needed.
If you add an inhibitor of myostatin you get this:
I imagine being fictional post-human semi-divine Angels of Death that sexuality is a concept that they have abandoned with their departure from humanity.
I recall that in some books (possibly HH?) that marines have an appreciation for the female form but I imagine that it is more akin to how the venus di milo is a work of art as opposed to pornographic.
We know that during the marine-making process they undergo a lot of hormonal changes prior to puberty. This suggests that the astartes process heavily interferes with the standard maturation of an adolescent human male.
In the FFRPG Deathwatch marines have the 'chem-geld' trait making them immune to seduction. Other characterters in the FFRPGs can have this (sometimes Sisters, occassionally priests, some psykers and most assassins)
This doesn't mean they are literally gelded (it is 'chem' geld) but could mean something hormonal or even just psychoactive chemicals.
In terms of reproduction we understand that they're given a high amount of testosterone and other steroidal drugs/hormones. This has the effect in a human male of suppressing the messenger hormones that trigger the body to make sperm and testosterone. (Basically if you take supplementary testosterone, the body thinks your gonads are working fine so doesn't produce enough messenger so your own natural production is suppressed). So that could be an option for marines.
In addition we know that elements of the primarch/chapter DNA is incorporated into the aspiring astartes via gene therapy. I imagine that this would be needed so that the marine organs aren't rejected as well as to make the marine genetically a part of the chapter and by proxy making all of the marines in a chapter genetic brothers.
However it is unlikely that these changes are germ-line changes.Obviously in the year 40.999 it could be, but then it would be even MORE important to ensure that the marines don't reproduce with humans because then we'd have some sort of grandchildren of the primarchs, that's even assuming the child would work. I would hypothesise that the 'son' of a space marine (for a female wouldn't be compatible from the get-go) would also be incompatible with life for the fact that even if it did have the genetic code to grow the organs (and I assume that marines DONT since they need to be grown separately and implanted) that those organs wouldn't have the full primarch DNA required to support the new physiology that a marine has to enable those organs to 'take root' and function.
The bottom line is that marines aren't human, they don't have human relationships be they sexual or homosexual. They have a brotherhood, they have chapter-cultural influenced relationships with human (humans are weak, humans are like children, humans are noble, humans are...) and as we know they range from noble philosopher-warrior-kings to razing psychotic murderers.
I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
Most Space Marines are taken pre-puberty, put in camps and tested like mad, they become Space Marines with no real knowledge of women, that coupled with already knowing what gives them pleasure in worshipping the Emperor, training and killing means they simply don’t see much interest in the fairer sex.
I’d say just to be different Space Wolves are taken as adults but Russ actually believed that living a life, having a woman and possibly a family made soldiers fight harder because they knew what they were fighting to protect.
Then again, who knows what worshiping the Emperor actually involves? Maybe it means having sex to help spread the human race under the watchful and approving eyes of a Big E poster.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
The organs don't alter their genes, but overhaul bodily functions by simple force. Nothing in the Melanchromic should change your genes by much, but it will flood your tissue with new melanin cells able to adjust their color to meet light exposure.
(Which is also a point to make, there should be no white or black marines because they adjust their skin tone to radiation exposure. Thus a Chapter may look pale skinned, but when deployed to a rad world they'd be dark brown or grey)
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
That's just the normal response for any healthy individual using a bolt action rifle.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
I just wanted to re-iterate, that you can be sterile, and have an almost dead libido and still be capable of having sex. Nothing that has been discussed so far makes a marine "incapable" of engaging in sexual relations, merely unlikely to.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
w1zard wrote: I just wanted to re-iterate, that you can be sterile, and have an almost dead libido and still be capable of having sex. Nothing that has been discussed so far makes a marine "incapable" of engaging in sexual relations, merely unlikely to.
Indeed. The testes would still be an important source of testosterone and unnecessary surgery to remove the phallus would be just inviting a risk of complications and serve no real purpose. The plumbing is still there and is functional, but the valve to operate it has gotten very rusty and would be difficult to turn.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I admit, every time I use multiple Drop Pods I can hear the tune "It's raining men!"
