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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
Back on topic, what IS it with nerd fandoms where people's thoughts eventually turn towards the genitalia of whatever fictional thing they follow? I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
I think it's to do with the fact the sex and procreation are the fundamental driving force behind almost everything we do. Studies have shown that parts of the human brain thought to be related to the evaluation of potential sexual partners are generally always active in humans and (perhaps somewhat predictably) more so in men than in women, even homosexual men. Experimenters also found that heterosexual men don't limit these evaluations to women. They found that these regions will fire not only when shown images of women, but also of other men as well as images that only barely resemble the human form, such as lamps, mountains and loafs of bread! Although asexuality is real and supported by brain scan evidence, it is very rare, and the vast majority of us, men especially, are basically scientifically verifies perverts.
Jokes aside though, there is a precedent for homosexual indoctrination being an effective part of a militarized society. Consider the Spartiate class of classical Spartan society: probably the single most effective combat troops of their time, but also an institutionally homosexual society that considered women as mere vessels for procreation, with true love a thing reserved between males.
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
The people of Ultramar also do engage in eugenics. People harp about Macragge being a utopia but forget that it's common practice for Macraggites to leave any sickly children out in the wild to die of exposure and only raise those born healthy.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wyzilla wrote: The people of Ultramar also do engage in eugenics. People harp about Macragge being a utopia but forget that it's common practice for Macraggites to leave any sickly children out in the wild to die of exposure and only raise those born healthy.
Good point, that. It's not (officially at least) a Chapter-run eugenics program but Marneus Calgar, Lord Macragge, Lord Defender of Greater Ultramar doesn't disapprove too much if the citizens cull the weak from the herd. In Ultramar everyone is happy about serving the Emperor, and those who say differently quietly disappear in the night (instead of being publicly burned as heretics).
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
Wow, the Ultramarines doing something sensible again. I sometimes wonder if that's what Guilliman really had over his brother-primarchs: he wasn't the best but he was the one to think of the obvious, non-Grimdark (or at least less-Grimdark) solution to problems.
"The sword can be anklebiter as well as throatcleaver. We need no new weapons to defeat the sons of the hydra, merely new doctrines."
-Joriah Stendall, second Chapter Master of the Red Grail Crusaders
Danielle Rae wrote: Wow, the Ultramarines doing something sensible again. I sometimes wonder if that's what Guilliman really had over his brother-primarchs: he wasn't the best but he was the one to think of the obvious, non-Grimdark (or at least less-Grimdark) solution to problems.
The Ultramarines recruit from more than just Maccrage if I'm not mistaken, but from the entire Realm of Ultramar. That certainly gives them a much bigger population to recruit from and be more picky with their aspirants as a result. Plus the Realm of Ultramar are amongst the most developped wolrd in the Imperium, recruitment is far easier and faster than having to run around, finding bands of nomad hunter-gatherer to request to take their pre-pubecent sons.
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
Wow, the Ultramarines doing something sensible again. I sometimes wonder if that's what Guilliman really had over his brother-primarchs: he wasn't the best but he was the one to think of the obvious, non-Grimdark (or at least less-Grimdark) solution to problems.
Logistics and support structure was originally his shtick. He recruited more marines, used them wisely, and when he conquered worlds he set them up with strong defences, government, and trade with Ultramar, further expanding his potential recruitment pool.
Danielle Rae wrote: I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls," which seems to suggest at least some amount of attraction going on, although not necessarily actual liaisons. Is that an inconsistency on Dan Abnett's part, or is sexuality more of a "rare but extant" thing among Space Marines? Or are the Luna Wolves also an exception like the Space Wolves?
*HeadDesk* Imperial Militia Marines. Not Space Marines. Those are normal humans, at least one of which gets lucky with a certain combat photgrapher. I get OP getting confused, but the fact that this thread went so deep into the 'I don't care about the fluff, my marines are virile" route is depressing.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
*HeadDesk* Imperial Militia Marines. Not Space Marines. Those are normal humans, at least one of which gets lucky with a certain combat photgrapher. I get OP getting confused, but the fact that this thread went so deep into the 'I don't care about the fluff, my marines are virile" route is depressing.
I dont know...this thread has been surprisingly intelligent and well thought out in comparison to some of the other threads that have tread upon this issue.
The latest black legion book has a 1k sons sorc that seems to really appreciate the beauty in woman...Several times...though it does not go farther than that.
My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
rayphoton wrote: I dont know...this thread has been surprisingly intelligent and well thought out in comparison to some of the other threads that have tread upon this issue.
The latest black legion book has a 1k sons sorc that seems to really appreciate the beauty in woman...Several times...though it does not go farther than that.
In my opinion, traitor Marines are bit different. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a more or less normal sexuality provided they were never psycho-indoctrinated not to which many warbands probably don't care to do. I don't imagine new recruits from, let's say the Night Lords or the Emperor's Children to care to sterilise or deprive their recruits from their sexuality.
Historically the male devotees of the goddess Astarte were gelded, and made into eunuchs.
Where 40k borrows from Frank Herbert's Dune, there was a very long-winded bit of exposition in God-Emperor of Dune wherein Leto describe the links he sees between sexuality and aggression.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
Might be an easier fix to some problems than "dont as dont tell".
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
Lets see - they are a worthless - fragile heap of flesh for a "sterilized murder machine. Also - where is that confirmed? I think it was the 4th eddition space marine codex which had a detailed list of the process to become a space marine. It was something like 16 steps. Detailing removal of unneeded organs and implanting of superior astartes organs. It's like something out of Frankenstein.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
At the end of the day, GW clearly just wants to avoid the issue presented in this question altogether. I doubt that they will ever address it directly one way or the other. To an extent, Space Marines are hyper-romanticized feudal knights, and you don't see the question of sex directly addressed in epic poetry or Arthurian legend or what have you, either, even if it is alluded to. I personally think we're fortunate that GW doesn't feel the need to dive into these kinds of details at length and they prefer to tread the ground of romantic legend instead of trying to nail everything down in a realistic way. Space Marines are an archetype and sexual relationships are not a necessary part of that archetype.
I would disagree that marines are an archetype. They might pull from some ideas of other "perfect warriors" through out literature and history but that just gives them character - the defining characteristic of space marines is that they are can no longer even be considered human. They are monsters - but these monsters fight for righteousness!
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
Xenomancers wrote: I would disagree that marines are an archetype. They might pull from some ideas of other "perfect warriors" through out literature and history but that just gives them character - the defining characteristic of space marines is that they are can no longer even be considered human. They are monsters - but these monsters fight for righteousness!
That just makes it a clever interpretation of the archetype. The romantic ideal of a stewardly or monastic warrior who cherishes honor and duty above all else is pretty hard to relate to on a human level, if you're being honest. So it makes sense in this context that such characters would be presented as monsters or otherwise inhuman when compared to your average Joe. As the image of martial perfection they've lost their humanity.
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
Luciferian wrote: I doubt that they will ever address it directly one way or the other. To an extent, Space Marines are hyper-romanticized feudal knights, and you don't see the question of sex directly addressed in epic poetry or Arthurian legend or what have you, either, even if it is alluded to.
We must have read very different legends then because one of the central plot of Arthurian legends is that of Gueunièvre and Lancelot relationship. Arthur himself is born out of basically the rape of his mother by his father Uther. Mordred is the son of Arthur and his half-sister also through rape, this time of Arthur, and incestious feeling of his sister towards him and many more. I get the point that indeed, Space Marine are pseudo-knights, but the example isn't very good. It actually looks more like the sanitised version developped in the 19th century if chivalry than the original material of the 12th century.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 22:13:57
We must have read very different legends then because one of the central plot of Arthurian legends is that of Gueunièvre and Lancelot relationship. Arthur himself is born out of basically the rape of his mother by his father Uther. Mordred is the son of Arthur and his half-sister also through rape, this time of Arthur, and incestious feeling of his sister towards him and many more. I get the point that indeed, Space Marine are pseudo-knights, but the example isn't very good. It actually looks more like the sanitised version developped in the 19th century if chivalry than the original material of the 12th century.
Right but they don't come right out and spell it out in detail because they don't have to. It's enough just to know the relationships between the characters. I get that children have parents who conceive them and all that, but Arthurian legend doesn't take its time to have that talk about knightly birds and bees, just like GW hasn't ever directly addressed Space Marine birds and bees.
Somebody went through a lot of trouble to make that and I can only applaud them in my most secret place of my heart.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Insectum7 wrote: I admit, every time I use multiple Drop Pods I can hear the tune "It's raining men!"
But on the original song it was clearly heterosexual, or possibly bisexual, men!
Spoiler:
Ginjitzu wrote: Studies have shown that parts of the human brain thought to be related to the evaluation of potential sexual partners are generally always active in humans and (perhaps somewhat predictably) more so in men than in women, even homosexual men. Experimenters also found that heterosexual men don't limit these evaluations to women. They found that these regions will fire not only when shown images of women, but also of other men as well as images that only barely resemble the human form, such as lamps, mountains and loafs of bread!
Did you saw that result and made the conclusion that men are evaluating lamps, mountains and loaf of bread as sexual partners, or did you saw that result and made the conclusion that it likely meant that this part of the brain was not only used for the evaluation of sexual partners, but also for a bunch of other things?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Did you saw that result and made the conclusion that men are evaluating lamps, mountains and loaf of bread as sexual partners, or did you saw that result and made the conclusion that it likely meant that this part of the brain was not only used for the evaluation of sexual partners, but also for a bunch of other things?
Come on, you've never seen a really good-looking lamp before?
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
Whatever floats your boat, although to be fair I tend to avoid the weights area in the gym of an afternoon because it seems to have exactly this scene playing out.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
