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The simulation training is referred to by the dark angels Primaris in War of Secrets and it’s referred to in Of Honour and Iron by the ultramarine Primaris in that book. Primaris imperial fists not going through standard training is also talked about a bit in Shroud of Night. It’s talked about a bit in the Dark Imperium books as well, the large batches of cawl produced marines were not trained conventionally like normal marines, and went on their first combat deployments in their standard squads.

I think its safe to assume chapters making Primaris follow the same techniques for their homegrown ones, as they follow the same combat doctrines and give them the same equipment. Also given the fact there is no Primaris scout unit in the game or described at all in the fluff. A Primaris unit of scouts would be obviously different to a normal marine one, especially the sergeant, and I’ve seen no such evidence of such a thing. Of course if I have missed some fluff evidence please feel free to state it.

robbienw wrote:
The simulation training is referred to by the dark angels Primaris in War of Secrets and it’s referred to in Of Honour and Iron by the ultramarine Primaris in that book. Primaris imperial fists not going through standard training is also talked about a bit in Shroud of Night. It’s talked about a bit in the Dark Imperium books as well, the large batches of cawl produced marines were not trained conventionally like normal marines, and went on their first combat deployments in their standard squads.

I know that in Dark Imperium, those marines are the one who were frozen and thawed out again when Guilliman came to power again, so those are exactly the ones I'd expect to have been in simulation training.

As for the others, are they M41 recruits, or M31 recruits? If they're M31, then that's nothing new, but if they're M41, and completely new (as in, they weren't part of the first wave of Primaris and weren't stored on Mars by Cawl), then that shows that normal Primaris in the future use simulation training.

You mean primaris are just the new marines? I think everyone knew that... Which is why I don't know why gw have made dumb lore about them. 'here's your new an improved suit of armour fresh from mars' 'sweet thanks` and that could've been that.

Because GW wanted to use the Primaris as a excuse to soft reboot not just the model range, but the way SM played on the table top. Hence the different stat lines and squad loadouts.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

robbienw wrote:
The simulation training is referred to by the dark angels Primaris in War of Secrets and it’s referred to in Of Honour and Iron by the ultramarine Primaris in that book. Primaris imperial fists not going through standard training is also talked about a bit in Shroud of Night. It’s talked about a bit in the Dark Imperium books as well, the large batches of cawl produced marines were not trained conventionally like normal marines, and went on their first combat deployments in their standard squads.

I know that in Dark Imperium, those marines are the one who were frozen and thawed out again when Guilliman came to power again, so those are exactly the ones I'd expect to have been in simulation training.

As for the others, are they M41 recruits, or M31 recruits? If they're M31, then that's nothing new, but if they're M41, and completely new (as in, they weren't part of the first wave of Primaris and weren't stored on Mars by Cawl), then that shows that normal Primaris in the future use simulation training.

It’s not said in Shroud of Night if they are batch ones or normal recruits, they seem like normal imperial fists though.

The ones in war of secrets are Terran or Martian from sometime in the intervening 10k years.

I doubt they’d change the simulation training though if it’s been successful. Why would they? They haven’t changed anything else with chapter recruited Primaris.

Animus wrote:

nareik wrote:
Don't be sad that Swarmlord ate his arms and legs.

The Swarmlord nearly killed him, but he didn't lose his arms and legs.

If he didn't lose his arms and legs, then why is he so eager to have a primaris body (which typically has arms and legs!)? GOTCHA!

nareik wrote:

Animus wrote:

nareik wrote:
Don't be sad that Swarmlord ate his arms and legs.

The Swarmlord nearly killed him, but he didn't lose his arms and legs.

If he didn't lose his arms and legs, then why is he so eager to have a primaris body (which typically has arms and legs!)? GOTCHA!

Pretty sure got enhancements to his existing body, not some kind of mind transference, or are Marines now dabbling in even more heresy lead by that Heretek at the centre of this web of deceit?

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Because GW wanted to use the Primaris as a excuse to soft reboot not just the model range, but the way SM played on the table top. Hence the different stat lines and squad loadouts.

That doesn't need all the dumbness about how they're better and Cawl is super genius though.

pm713 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Because GW wanted to use the Primaris as a excuse to soft reboot not just the model range, but the way SM played on the table top. Hence the different stat lines and squad loadouts.

That doesn't need all the dumbness about how they're better and Cawl is super genius though.

If Cawl wasn't a genius, I'd question how he was able to create the Primaris.

I fully agree he should have been introduced for longer, but I can guarentee, if Cawl had been around for as long as someone like Fabius Bile, there wouldn't have been such a massive issue.

I think that the actual characters themselves weren't an issue, but that things seemed to move too quickly for some people. It went from stagnant setting, and then everything seemed to happen at once. If the events had taken place over a longer time frame, time enough that the community could speculate and hypothesize first, and then see their speculation play out, that would have been better.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Because GW wanted to use the Primaris as a excuse to soft reboot not just the model range, but the way SM played on the table top. Hence the different stat lines and squad loadouts.

That doesn't need all the dumbness about how they're better and Cawl is super genius though.

If Cawl wasn't a genius, I'd question how he was able to create the Primaris.

I fully agree he should have been introduced for longer, but I can guarentee, if Cawl had been around for as long as someone like Fabius Bile, there wouldn't have been such a massive issue.

I think that the actual characters themselves weren't an issue, but that things seemed to move too quickly for some people. It went from stagnant setting, and then everything seemed to happen at once. If the events had taken place over a longer time frame, time enough that the community could speculate and hypothesize first, and then see their speculation play out, that would have been better.

It's not that he's a genius like Fabius, it's that he's a genius at everything. Fabius is only shown being good at biology. Cawl upgraded gene seeds to be hugely better, created several new armours, several new weapons, new dreadnoughts and new magic anti grav tanks.

It's insane. If he'd been introduced for longer all we'd have is a silly character being around for longer. A better way of doing Cawl and Primaris would have been to have the new things be just weapons and armour that Cawl made so he's good at a reasonable amount of things.

The stagnant setting idea always seemed odd to me. It's a setting that was the point. Advancement in the form of reasonable campaigns was good. Deciding to timeskip, chuck in a bucket of new things and kind of skip half the storylines in progress was not.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If Cawl wasn't a genius, I'd question how he was able to create the Primaris.

I fully agree he should have been introduced for longer, but I can guarentee, if Cawl had been around for as long as someone like Fabius Bile, there wouldn't have been such a massive issue.

I think that the actual characters themselves weren't an issue, but that things seemed to move too quickly for some people. It went from stagnant setting, and then everything seemed to happen at once. If the events had taken place over a longer time frame, time enough that the community could speculate and hypothesize first, and then see their speculation play out, that would have been better.

It makes it flow better if you think the Cursed Founding as a testbed for the Primaris Program.

pm713 wrote:
It's not that he's a genius like Fabius, it's that he's a genius at everything. Fabius is only shown being good at biology. Cawl upgraded gene seeds to be hugely better, created several new armours, several new weapons, new dreadnoughts and new magic anti grav tanks.

If I'm honest, I don't see that work as being ALL Cawl's. His genetic research is essentially just recovered tech, not innovation, and the various armoury upgrades I see more as work done by a larger team, headed by Cawl, under Guilliman's orders.

It's not like he alone created the entire Primaris program in a cave with a box of scraps.

I see it more as "he was already a talented guy, given near unlimited authority by Guilliman to create a new army and wargear for them, and took 10,000 years to do so" - if we'd known about him earlier, and seen him doing some of this stuff earlier, it wouldn't have had nearly the amount of whiplash it did. For me, I assume that Cawl was doing all this in the background.

The stagnant setting idea always seemed odd to me. It's a setting that was the point. Advancement in the form of reasonable campaigns was good. Deciding to timeskip, chuck in a bucket of new things and kind of skip half the storylines in progress was not.

Again, everyone keeps saying "it was the point it was a setting" - was it? Like, was there ever any concrete confirmation that 40k was supposed to be a setting, and never ever advance? And even if it was, does that mean it can't change from that?
The very fact you mention storylines says to me that it wasn't just setting, it was a setting which had stories in it, which makes it no different to any other fictional universe.

You say reasonable campaigns - the issue was that nearly all of the campaigns, all the big ones, had consequences that meant there was no way to meaningfully resolve them without the Imperium winning every time (except the Damocles Gulf - which again, could only rationally end with Tau winning). Cadia? We saw what happened with that - Chaos couldn't truly win without causing a massive upheaval - so GW had to retcon their win. Armageddon? If the Imperium lost, then the Orks could just head on almost straight to Terra. Damocles Gulf? If the Tau lost, then the Imperium would sweep through their core worlds. The stakes were so high for those campaigns that if any real victories were had, it would have no choice but to advance the setting.

I don't think any of the storylines have actually been skipped - they're still there, it's just the stakes have changed. I'm open to your view though - what storylines do you think have been skipped, and can't be completed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If Cawl wasn't a genius, I'd question how he was able to create the Primaris.

I fully agree he should have been introduced for longer, but I can guarentee, if Cawl had been around for as long as someone like Fabius Bile, there wouldn't have been such a massive issue.

I think that the actual characters themselves weren't an issue, but that things seemed to move too quickly for some people. It went from stagnant setting, and then everything seemed to happen at once. If the events had taken place over a longer time frame, time enough that the community could speculate and hypothesize first, and then see their speculation play out, that would have been better.

It makes it flow better if you think the Cursed Founding as a testbed for the Primaris Program.

Agreed. If you assume that nearly any kind of innovations or geneseed modifications were done as part of the lead-up to the Primaris Project and that Cawl was behind it, it plays out far better.

 Grimtuff wrote:

nareik wrote:

Animus wrote:

nareik wrote:
Don't be sad that Swarmlord ate his arms and legs.

The Swarmlord nearly killed him, but he didn't lose his arms and legs.

If he didn't lose his arms and legs, then why is he so eager to have a primaris body (which typically has arms and legs!)? GOTCHA!

Pretty sure got enhancements to his existing body, not some kind of mind transference, or are Marines now dabbling in even more heresy lead by that Heretek at the centre of this web of deceit?

enhancements such as arms and legs... Along with a couple of those funky new primaries organs.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If Cawl wasn't a genius, I'd question how he was able to create the Primaris.

I fully agree he should have been introduced for longer, but I can guarentee, if Cawl had been around for as long as someone like Fabius Bile, there wouldn't have been such a massive issue.

I think that the actual characters themselves weren't an issue, but that things seemed to move too quickly for some people. It went from stagnant setting, and then everything seemed to happen at once. If the events had taken place over a longer time frame, time enough that the community could speculate and hypothesize first, and then see their speculation play out, that would have been better.

It makes it flow better if you think the Cursed Founding as a testbed for the Primaris Program.

Double think at it's finest. Lets go back and pretend the deus ex machina/ hamfisted retcon was planned all along and not a blatant money grab since GW is out of good ideas to sell the existing range.

My out there theory is that in turning an existing character into a Primaris or a new Primaris character they will accidentally create one who thinks that the Primaris are superior to other marines leading to a second civil war.

With the titbits of lore that Cawl used bits of the gene seed for all 20 of the founding chapters and how they are trained its quite possible that one could be pushed over the edge in a similar way to Horus.

It also solves the issue of scaling up Chaos Space Marines if a load of Primaris turn renegade.

Saying they switch up all marines to be primaris in future... I wonder how they'll make it work on the tabletop? Intercessors will also be the base for tacticals I assume, do you think intercessors will get different rules to differentiate them? Intercessor tacticals get access to the special and heavy weapon option as usual, and intercessors will get some form of special rule to give them an option to be picked over tacticals? And work up from there changing them out?

What will be interesting is if Primaris marines can infact be equipped with terminator armour (not gravis) and then some of the other niche roles, like centurions, scouts even... I may have my fluff wrong but primaris don't go through the scout stage right?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

nareik wrote:

Animus wrote:

nareik wrote:
Don't be sad that Swarmlord ate his arms and legs.

The Swarmlord nearly killed him, but he didn't lose his arms and legs.

If he didn't lose his arms and legs, then why is he so eager to have a primaris body (which typically has arms and legs!)? GOTCHA!

Pretty sure got enhancements to his existing body, not some kind of mind transference, or are Marines now dabbling in even more heresy lead by that Heretek at the centre of this web of deceit?

enhancements such as arms and legs... Along with a couple of those funky new primaries organs.

He still has bionic arms and legs surely.

The trailer and info coming from the weekender seems to imply that the upgrade process was a pretty risky thing. Is this because its inherently difficult or because Calgar was one of the first? Dying on an operating table would be a pretty crappy end for any of the existing special characters. But having them all come through fine would cheapen the risk that Marneus seems to have taken. It would IMO be much better if he is the trailblazer that opens up the door to a safer more reliable procedure.

It makes sense that the upgrade can happen, after all the only difference is three extra organs.

I like that they have hinted that it is dangerous, so not all will see the conversion as worthwhile. Perhaps the organs have a higher chance of rejection in 'mature' marines compared to those recently implanted.

Off topic;
I think that Primaris were a bit of a let down because they went against the grain of the established marine lore. By that I mean the degradation of the geneseed, the growing prevalence of the flaws, being ground down by attrition, restricted by dogmatic adherence to the codex, self destructive acts of martyrdom... etc. The space marine story was one of the loss of past glory and the descent into ruin.

I would have loved the Primaris if they had been painted as monsters created in desperation, rather than 'perfected' space marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, as the unveiling of Calgar shows, I guess that the oft-quoted statement from the Primaris reveal streams has finally been proven as canon!

While it was said that old Space Marines could be converted into Primaris Marines, a few people doubted that this was the case, due to no Primaris'd characters being mentioned. But, this is a nail in the coffin that the conversion process exists.

I, for one, love the room this gives people for their Dudes. Have a named character in an old army that you want to redo in Primaris? That's canon! Want to remodel an old character so they fit in with your Primaris models? They can just become Primaris!

What do you guys think about this? And what characters do you want to be Primaris'd? My hopes would be Azreal and Ezekiel, Dante and Mephiston, Sicarius, Kantor, and Helbrecht.

No one would accept our favourite characters going the way of the squats. I already have my Ragnar Primaris lol Same with Grimnar. Can't wait to see the new models that come out though.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather they kept some characters as non-Primaris. Makes it less like they're screaming LOVE PRIMARIS at you. Choice is good.

There's a few Chapters I can maybe see as refusing the enhancement (maybe some Space Wolf characters, and older induviduals like Cassius), but logically in-universe, why would they refuse the Primaris treatment? Tactical flexibility, maybe, but the ability to be stronger, closer to the Primarchs genetically, and generally proving your loyalty to Guilliman are all things that I can see Space Marines wanting to do.

Just seems like a bit of a no-brainer, but then, maybe there are potential risks of enhancement?

Iron Hands, (even if they have no characters).

Why get better flesh? Steal is stronger anyway!

Sir Heckington wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather they kept some characters as non-Primaris. Makes it less like they're screaming LOVE PRIMARIS at you. Choice is good.

There's a few Chapters I can maybe see as refusing the enhancement (maybe some Space Wolf characters, and older induviduals like Cassius), but logically in-universe, why would they refuse the Primaris treatment? Tactical flexibility, maybe, but the ability to be stronger, closer to the Primarchs genetically, and generally proving your loyalty to Guilliman are all things that I can see Space Marines wanting to do.

Just seems like a bit of a no-brainer, but then, maybe there are potential risks of enhancement?

Iron Hands, (even if they have no characters).

Why get better flesh? Steal is stronger anyway!

Not against a farseer that shuts down all Iron Hands bionics like during the GC, that day machines were weak lol

I don't get the repeated attention on Primaris not having scouts. I mean it's factually correct, but why is it important? Aren't all the new models just analogues for preexisting ones?
Reivers: lightly armored, infiltration and reconnaissance units ~ scouts
Intercessors: standard multi-role battle-line troops ~ tactical marines
Hellblasters: high damage output weapons teams ~ devastators
Inceptors: fast moving aerial troops ~ assault marines
Aggressors: slow moving, heavily armored specialists ~ terminators

As for Primaris lore in general? Yes, it's garbage, but it's necessary garbage to facilitate the massive undertaking that is re scaling the entire flagship range of Games-Workshop miniatures in a gradual way, rather than just swapping out the old marine line for a new one.

Also, I don't foresee Intercessors getting the old multiple weapon options of their predecessors. I don't think it's unintentional that the Primaris kits came with the options that they did. I think it's entirely Games-Workshop's intention to have limited options within units in favor of more specialized unit roles, a la Age of Sigmar.

And in terms of all characters getting Primarificated. I think it will happen to the more important chapter characters, that being the chapter masters at least, as well as some others, but we may also see a few of the lesser loved characters slowly going the way of the dodo.

My own head fluff is that my Dark Angels are exceedingly cautious and deeply mistrusting of Gulliman, Cawl, and the entire Primaris process in general, and apart from a few "closely observed" Intercessor and Reiver squads, are unlikely to engage in any meaningful uptake of said process any time soon. Well at least until the Lion wakes up and tears them all a new one for their misguided "shenanigans" these last ten millennia.

I think sudden, radical changes are kinda the MO of the story/setting. Most seem ok with the overall story or I doubt this discussion would take place. However, imagine if the game started with Warhammer 30,000: Conquest of Terra, and every 6 years or so they move the story forward. Some would like it, but others…

I played Thunder Warriors and my buddy played Barbarians. Now all of a sudden with 30K: Great Crusade I am supposed to just accept that my ENTIRE army was killed off and buy the new “Space Marine” line of models? What a terrible name anyways! Oh and instead of fighting Mars the Emp. just decided to be friends and Mars is like “you’re god! Have some capital ships!” These Primarch guys are just superheroes created to make us buy new models…

So I gave GC a chance. I am having fun with the World Eaters because they remind me most of the way I played Thunder Warriors. I love that Angron is basically a gladiator but manages to serve the cause of mankind… DUDE THEY JUST RETCONED MY ARMY TO BE EVIL! Horus catches a cold and decides to turn traitor? Most children just watch TV until they feel better. I am just supposed to accept that half of the Legions turned? 30K: Horus Heresy is a joke. Are they going to “Thunder” off my army again? I quit…

So HH has been a lot of fun. Now they release this 30K: Age of the Imperium and totally Thunder off my army. It’s annoying that now my army is just kinda running away into the warp and now I have to give them a new paint job. With the whole “Horus is vaporized and the Emp is undead” plot I think GW finally ran out of ideas. RIP GW!

So I love that the new edition has more of a war against xenos feel to it…

Primaris conversions are just a part of the next phase for this game. I like it (NEED new Dante and Maphiston), but I get why some would be opposed.

Imhotep wrote:
I think sudden, radical changes are kinda the MO of the story/setting. Most seem ok with the overall story or I doubt this discussion would take place. However, imagine if the game started with Warhammer 30,000: Conquest of Terra, and every 6 years or so they move the story forward. Some would like it, but others…

I played Thunder Warriors and my buddy played Barbarians. Now all of a sudden with 30K: Great Crusade I am supposed to just accept that my ENTIRE army was killed off and buy the new “Space Marine” line of models? What a terrible name anyways! Oh and instead of fighting Mars the Emp. just decided to be friends and Mars is like “you’re god! Have some capital ships!” These Primarch guys are just superheroes created to make us buy new models…

So I gave GC a chance. I am having fun with the World Eaters because they remind me most of the way I played Thunder Warriors. I love that Angron is basically a gladiator but manages to serve the cause of mankind… DUDE THEY JUST RETCONED MY ARMY TO BE EVIL! Horus catches a cold and decides to turn traitor? Most children just watch TV until they feel better. I am just supposed to accept that half of the Legions turned? 30K: Horus Heresy is a joke. Are they going to “Thunder” off my army again? I quit…

So HH has been a lot of fun. Now they release this 30K: Age of the Imperium and totally Thunder off my army. It’s annoying that now my army is just kinda running away into the warp and now I have to give them a new paint job. With the whole “Horus is vaporized and the Emp is undead” plot I think GW finally ran out of ideas. RIP GW!

This was hilarious!

Also, a great illustration of why a moving timeline doesn't work so great with a wargame.

I love that it has been confirmed as canon. Now we just need more Primaris kits so I can remake all of my old Space Marine characters in the Primaris army I am building.

I would rather see the inner circle of dark angels all killed off one by one in a book series and replaced with up and coming primaris that for the fluff betrayal that would be "primaris Azrael"

I like the models, I like the concept as long as its consistent with the setting, Dark Angels DO NOT TRUST outsiders except in exceptional circumstances, legendary stubborness in the face of overwhelming odds, its simply not something they would do.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I love that it has been confirmed as canon. Now we just need more Primaris kits so I can remake all of my old Space Marine characters in the Primaris army I am building.

I've already been doing that:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather they kept some characters as non-Primaris. Makes it less like they're screaming LOVE PRIMARIS at you. Choice is good.

There's a few Chapters I can maybe see as refusing the enhancement (maybe some Space Wolf characters, and older induviduals like Cassius), but logically in-universe, why would they refuse the Primaris treatment? Tactical flexibility, maybe, but the ability to be stronger, closer to the Primarchs genetically, and generally proving your loyalty to Guilliman are all things that I can see Space Marines wanting to do.

Just seems like a bit of a no-brainer, but then, maybe there are potential risks of enhancement?

Because the original marine program was created by the God Emporer and any changes would be heresy.

jorzolek wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather they kept some characters as non-Primaris. Makes it less like they're screaming LOVE PRIMARIS at you. Choice is good.

There's a few Chapters I can maybe see as refusing the enhancement (maybe some Space Wolf characters, and older induviduals like Cassius), but logically in-universe, why would they refuse the Primaris treatment? Tactical flexibility, maybe, but the ability to be stronger, closer to the Primarchs genetically, and generally proving your loyalty to Guilliman are all things that I can see Space Marines wanting to do.

Just seems like a bit of a no-brainer, but then, maybe there are potential risks of enhancement?

Because the original marine program was created by the God Emporer and any changes would be heresy.

Depends, the Mechanicum could have known of the Magos Biologis that worked on the Primarch project with Corax on orders from the Emperor. If they did know which they most likely did, working on the geneseed might not have been so heretical.

Imhotep wrote:I think sudden, radical changes are kinda the MO of the story/setting. Most seem ok with the overall story or I doubt this discussion would take place. However, imagine if the game started with Warhammer 30,000: Conquest of Terra, and every 6 years or so they move the story forward. Some would like it, but others…

I played Thunder Warriors and my buddy played Barbarians. Now all of a sudden with 30K: Great Crusade I am supposed to just accept that my ENTIRE army was killed off and buy the new “Space Marine” line of models? What a terrible name anyways! Oh and instead of fighting Mars the Emp. just decided to be friends and Mars is like “you’re god! Have some capital ships!” These Primarch guys are just superheroes created to make us buy new models…

So I gave GC a chance. I am having fun with the World Eaters because they remind me most of the way I played Thunder Warriors. I love that Angron is basically a gladiator but manages to serve the cause of mankind… DUDE THEY JUST RETCONED MY ARMY TO BE EVIL! Horus catches a cold and decides to turn traitor? Most children just watch TV until they feel better. I am just supposed to accept that half of the Legions turned? 30K: Horus Heresy is a joke. Are they going to “Thunder” off my army again? I quit…

So HH has been a lot of fun. Now they release this 30K: Age of the Imperium and totally Thunder off my army. It’s annoying that now my army is just kinda running away into the warp and now I have to give them a new paint job. With the whole “Horus is vaporized and the Emp is undead” plot I think GW finally ran out of ideas. RIP GW!

Even if this was the case, there would be nothing stopping you from playing your own games set in 30k: Conquest of Terra. Just because GW have moved their timeline on, it doesn't mean that the previous stuff never happened, and that you can't do anything with it.

You can largely say goodbye to seeing any new lore added, but if you got into the lore and that part of the timeline in the first place, that shouldn't be a problem for you.

If you don't like how the timeline plays out? Cool, do an alternate one. You can't expect your alternate timeline to be official, and will be irrelevant in discussions about the actual lore, but if you prefer to set your armies and games in your alternate future, or just not advance it at all, you're more than welcome to do that.

Just because GW advanced the setting doesn't mean you have to follow them. I know this is all a hypothetical, but there isn't anything wrong with a moving timeline if you realise that you don't have to advance with it.

Formosa wrote:I would rather see the inner circle of dark angels all killed off one by one in a book series and replaced with up and coming primaris that for the fluff betrayal that would be "primaris Azrael"

But Primaris Azrael would be no different to normal Azrael? You're not replacing Azrael, Azrael isn't a title. It's the same person, just with a few more bells and whistles.

The Dark Angels might have a distrust of the new recruits, the new Terran contingent, but I see no reason they'd have an issue with enhancing their existing stock, or using Primaris enhancements on recruits they'd be taking in anyways.

There's plenty of reason to have Primaris Dark Angels without needing to have Terran-made Dark Angels join the army.

I like the models, I like the concept as long as its consistent with the setting, Dark Angels DO NOT TRUST outsiders except in exceptional circumstances, legendary stubborness in the face of overwhelming odds, its simply not something they would do.

But Dark Angels DO take new recruits, right? Like, they must take in new neophytes from their recruiting worlds - why can't they be given the Primaris treatment?

Plus, sure, the DA might not trust them, but they really kinda have no choice but to take on Terran Primaris, due to Guilliman and the Custodes getting them into a political headlock.

jorzolek wrote:Because the original marine program was created by the God Emporer and any changes would be heresy.

When it's Guilliman, the legal heir to the Imperial Throne and highest ranking person in the entire Imperium, barring the Emperor himself, and the Custodes, the literal embodiment of the Emperor's Will, telling you that Primaris are supported by the Emperor and refusal to accept them is heresy, are you (a hypothetical Marine leader) really going to try and accuse them of heresy?