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 Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

But neither of those are different unit types. People keep bringing this false equivalency up "Nuh uh! You had no problem with the Plague Marines!" Well, no gak Sherlock- they're just an upscaled version of an existing unit type- something Intercessors are not, they've bullied their way in and sooner or later these will be the meat and potatoes unit of SM armies, not the, now obsolete Tacticals.

So what? If they really remove rule support for old marines you can use your tacticals as intercessors etc. And sure, not all loadouts can be use that way, but not all 2E marine loadouts could be used in 3E either. And of course, there probably will be some legacy rules for minimarines for foreseeable future, so you don't even need to do that.

But the thing is, most people will upgrade, and they would just the same if this was just an aesthetic update. You don't see first gen DE around, you don't see old school metal necrons, 2E monopose plastic marines, let alone RT beakies. People will get the new better looking models, and old ones get shelved. This is nothing new, it just has been a long time since this last happened to the marines.

People will get the new models *if* they are better looking. Primaris are very ugly, chunky and too big in my opinion, I have no desire to buy them to 'upgrade' my normal marines. They have different design aesthetic to normal marines. If they were a straight update with improved looking models, like the 2nd edition tactical marine to the 1998 ones, or the 1998 to 2013 ones, I would be buying.

robbienw wrote:

People will get the new models *if* they are better looking. Primaris are very ugly, chunky and too big in my opinion, I have no desire to buy them to 'upgrade' my normal marines. They have different design aesthetic to normal marines. If they were a straight update with improved looking models, like the 2nd edition tactical marine to the 1998 ones, or the 1998 to 2013 ones, I would be buying.

Primaris obviously look better. There really is no question about that. New players will overwhelmingly get Primaris.

I don't think you would

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:

People will get the new models *if* they are better looking. Primaris are very ugly, chunky and too big in my opinion, I have no desire to buy them to 'upgrade' my normal marines. They have different design aesthetic to normal marines. If they were a straight update with improved looking models, like the 2nd edition tactical marine to the 1998 ones, or the 1998 to 2013 ones, I would be buying.

Primaris obviously look better. There really is no question about that. New players will overwhelmingly get Primaris.

Neither design is very good, but the old design has the nostalgia advantage which is why people are so eager to go up to bat for it.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Neither design is very good, but the old design has the nostalgia advantage which is why people are so eager to go up to bat for it.

It indeed is pure nostalgia to think that old marines look better. But the new players are not affected by that.

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:

People will get the new models *if* they are better looking. Primaris are very ugly, chunky and too big in my opinion, I have no desire to buy them to 'upgrade' my normal marines. They have different design aesthetic to normal marines. If they were a straight update with improved looking models, like the 2nd edition tactical marine to the 1998 ones, or the 1998 to 2013 ones, I would be buying.

Primaris obviously look better. There really is no question about that. New players will overwhelmingly get Primaris.

No they don't. They don't fit the Imperium's aesthetic and look far more like the theoretical Dornian Heresy Ultras after they've stolen Tau tech.

Old style marines looked far better with more baroque armour and the ability to mix and match armour styles is one of the strengths of the range.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Neither design is very good, but the old design has the nostalgia advantage which is why people are so eager to go up to bat for it.

It indeed is pure nostalgia to think that old marines look better. But the new players are not affected by that.

You do know how nostalgia works, right? If the thing is right in front of you you're not going from memories. That's not nostalgia, that just personal taste.

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:

People will get the new models *if* they are better looking. Primaris are very ugly, chunky and too big in my opinion, I have no desire to buy them to 'upgrade' my normal marines. They have different design aesthetic to normal marines. If they were a straight update with improved looking models, like the 2nd edition tactical marine to the 1998 ones, or the 1998 to 2013 ones, I would be buying.

Primaris obviously look better. There really is no question about that. New players will overwhelmingly get Primaris.

There is a question about that. You are mistaking your personal opinion for fact.

I find primaris ugly and aesthetically inferior to normal marines, and will not be buying them. Others may decide differently, you can't dictate to people what their subjective view of something should be.

As to whether new players will overwhelmingly get primaris, you don't have any data to make such a claim. Its possible I'll agree, but only because primaris are available cheaply and are a good starter army cause they are easy to put together.

And for people who prefer the size and scale of primaris, the 'truescale' devotees, I think if a 'truescale' classic mk7 marine was produced, with similar size and proportions to Primaris but otherwise classic look, they would drop Primaris faster than a hot rock.

 Grimtuff wrote:


You do know how nostalgia works, right? If the thing is right in front of you you're not going from memories. That's not nostalgia, that just personal taste.

But the reactions which the perceptions elict are affected by previous experiences and associations. By pure looks alone no one would think the old marines look better.



There really is no contest.

Using heavily biased comparison pictures does not help your argument. Try putting a multi-part unpainted tactical marine next to the intercessor, not a poorly painted 3 part starter marine from an oop boxset

By pure looks alone I think 'old' marines look better, so your statement that no one would think that is incorrect.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:


You do know how nostalgia works, right? If the thing is right in front of you you're not going from memories. That's not nostalgia, that just personal taste.

But the reactions which the perceptions elict are affected by previous experiences and associations. By pure looks alone no one would think the old marines look better.



There really is no contest.

Nice strawman there- Let's put a unpainted Primaris next to a gakky painted starter box marine with no other context and ask someone to choose which looks better.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:


You do know how nostalgia works, right? If the thing is right in front of you you're not going from memories. That's not nostalgia, that just personal taste.

But the reactions which the perceptions elict are affected by previous experiences and associations. By pure looks alone no one would think the old marines look better.



There really is no contest.

So you put super old and ugly glued and painted DA mini next to primaris and this should be an argument? Well, lets put better painted regular marine as example to make it more fair:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ug1vz8te5233sju/IMG_20181107_012719.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ax9nc9bs2yqhukb/IMG_20181107_012723.jpg?dl=0

robbienw wrote:
Using heavily biased comparison pictures does not help your argument. Try putting a multi-part unpainted tactical marine next to the intercessor, not a poorly painted 3 part starter marine from an oop boxset

This is true.

My army can't even use most of the normal marine stuff, but if it went by my taste, I would say the mkIII marines look the best. That would be mixing up personal tastes with what people think.

Also from 4m away there is not much difference between either, other then primaris having huge bases.

robbienw wrote:
Using heavily biased comparison pictures does not help your argument. Try putting a multi-part unpainted tactical marine next to the intercessor, not a poorly painted 3 part starter marine from an oop boxset

That was a pic readily available from the internet. And doing what you suggest doesn't much help. The old marine proportions are just bad, there is no way around that.

I don't know the dude on the right seems better to me. The primaris has too long lass. People are stocky, and superior people should be more stocky. And not some wierd long legs short arms things. Talking about pure up close esthetics here. From the other side of the table it would be hard to notice the difference.

I also don't like the primaris weapon looks. The size makes it seem like they are handling some sort of MSG hvy bolter, while it is not the case rules wise. Units should not confuse players with their looks.

No. They're. Not.

As I've said before, the problem was the Cadians. Compare the old marines to literally any other basic human model or even the FW IG or the 2nd ed metals. Basic humans are the problem being too big.

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Using heavily biased comparison pictures does not help your argument. Try putting a multi-part unpainted tactical marine next to the intercessor, not a poorly painted 3 part starter marine from an oop boxset

That was a pic readily available from the internet. And doing what you suggest doesn't much help. The old marine proportions are just bad, there is no way around that.

It's ok to have better proportion, I am all up for it. Give me new true scale marines, but marines for my army, not entirely new faction with different units rules and roles.

New true scale tactical squad that not invalidating old ones - awesome, give me two! Entirely new unit that force to shelf my previous guys? Hell no.

The normal marine looks miles better to me. The intercessors rifle is ridiculously long, I really don't like his giant ski boot looking boots, and his shoulderpads look small for a space marine. He is also way too big, to the point it is feeling like a model rather than a miniature. Bigger does not automatically equal better. The normal marines proportions don't make it worse than the intercessor, cause the intercessor is such an ugly design.

There you go, someone has a different opinion to you.

People are allowed to have different ones. You having a strong emotional reaction to an opinion different to yours does not make your one fact

 Grimtuff wrote:
No. They're. Not.

As I've said before, the problem was the Cadians. Compare the old marines to literally any other basic human model or even the FW IG or the 2nd ed metals. Basic humans are the problem being too big.

All GWs plastic humans are at least as tall than Cadians, many of them are taller. Sure, old metal humans are better scaled to newer plastic marines, but that is a false comparison; when those humans were made, marines were smaller (and mostly metal) too.

I'd take the old marines all the time It's not just a simple comparison between the older and the newer model but it's a comparison between the primaris size and the other armies regular troops' sizes. IMHO that big troops look dumb.

I also don't like the absence of customization in the new kits but even if this was resolved in the future it doesn't change the fact that I don't like primaris.

Intercessors and hellblasters are also among the best ones. What about aggressors, inceptors and the repulsor??? Guilliman???

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
No. They're. Not.

As I've said before, the problem was the Cadians. Compare the old marines to literally any other basic human model or even the FW IG or the 2nd ed metals. Basic humans are the problem being too big.

All GWs plastic humans are at least as tall than Cadians, many of them are taller. Sure, old metal humans are better scaled to newer plastic marines, but that is a false comparison; when those humans were made, marines were smaller (and mostly metal) too.

Sounds like you're just confirming Cadians are the problem, just like I said in my OP ITT- You shouldn't use a metahuman as your baseline for scale, hence why everything that came after Cadians is fethed up in scale. Tell me, are Orks out of scale too? As the pictures in the background show them towering over normal humans but the models dispute that as they grow 'em big on Cadia!

Basic humans have got an upscale as well. Put a newer one like the renegade guardsman from Blackstone fortress, a voidsman from Rogue Trader or a Necromunda Van Saar next to the re-scaled Chaos Marines. Almost the same height. Put them next to a Primaris Marine and they are only a bit shorter, maybe half a head, not tiny like humans in the art compared to marines.

I imagine this may upset the 'truescale' fans, they will now need to truescale upsize their marines again.

See we've been through this before when you antagonize older veterans in favour of new players it goes badly.

Kirby did it and it led to a 10 year decline in sales.

I won't rebuy my armie, neither I think will most marine players but I will stop buying completely to demonstrate my displeasure should they squat the classic marines.

robbienw wrote:
Basic humans have got an upscale as well. Put a newer one like the renegade guardsman from Blackstone fortress, a voidsman from Rogue Trader or a Necromunda Van Saar next to the re-scaled Chaos Marines. Almost the same height. Put them next to a Primaris Marine and they are only a bit shorter, maybe half a head, not tiny like humans in the art compared to marines.

I imagine this may upset the 'truescale' fans, they will now need to truescale upsize their marines again.

Eventually GW will go into the realm of self-parody and The Grimdarkian will become a reality.

Silver144 wrote:

It's ok to have better proportion, I am all up for it. Give me new true scale marines, but marines for my army, not entirely new faction with different units rules and roles.

New true scale tactical squad that not invalidating old ones - awesome, give me two! Entirely new unit that force to shelf my previous guys? Hell no.

I agree that how they're handling this is awkward. But ultimately it is just details, the Intercessors are new Tacticals.

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

It's ok to have better proportion, I am all up for it. Give me new true scale marines, but marines for my army, not entirely new faction with different units rules and roles.

New true scale tactical squad that not invalidating old ones - awesome, give me two! Entirely new unit that force to shelf my previous guys? Hell no.

I agree that how they're handling this is awkward. But ultimately it is just details, the Intercessors are new Tacticals.

They are not just new tacticals, they REPLACE all current tacticals, this is not just some "details". And this is the breaking point. Invalidating almost half oh the armies in the game could not be tolerated.

GW is trying to leave the dark age behind and open a new era with more progressed Marines. AM could follow.
While Xenos races stay in their old tradition with the weapons and equipment they have.

Silver144 wrote:


They are not just new tacticals, they REPLACE all current tacticals, this is not just some "details". And this is the breaking point. Invalidating almost half oh the armies in the game could not be tolerated.

Tacticals will have some form of rule support for foreseeable future, and if at some point they don't you can use them as Intercessors if you're hell bent on using old ugly models. (And you can form a Hellblaster squad from all the plasmas from those Tactical Squads. Let's not pretend that almost all marine specials aren't plasmas.)

"But, but this and that model doesn't have a Primaris equivalent!" Let's worry about that if rule support for old marines actually vanishes, the situation will be completely different bu then. (And you probably have replaced most of your army with the Primaris by then anyway.)

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:


They are not just new tacticals, they REPLACE all current tacticals, this is not just some "details". And this is the breaking point. Invalidating almost half oh the armies in the game could not be tolerated.

Tacticals will have some form of rule support for foreseeable future, and if at some point they don't you can use them as Intercessors if you're hell bent on using old ugly models. (And you can form a Hellblaster squad from all the plasmas from those Tactical Squads. Let's not pretend that almost all marine specials aren't plasmas.)

"But, but this and that model doesn't have a Primaris equivalent!" Let's worry about that if rule support for old marines actually vanishes, the situation will be completely different bu then. (And you probably have replaced most of your army with the Primaris by then anyway.)

You didn't read what I answer you in previos notes, right?..

Oh well, no reason to asnwer you anymore then.

 Crimson wrote:

Tacticals will have some form of rule support for foreseeable future, and if at some point they don't you can use them as Intercessors if you're hell bent on using old ugly models. (And you can form a Hellblaster squad from all the plasmas from those Tactical Squads. Let's not pretend that almost all marine specials aren't plasmas.)

There you go again, confusing opinions with facts.

Last time I checked they weren't synonyms...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Funny thing is, GW did the exact same thing with Plague Marines at the same time, just without any fluff explanation - and nobody seems to care. If you put a new Plague Marine next to an old one the difference in size and design is even bigger than between a Primaris and an old Marine. However, you can still switch between both or even mix them, as they only got additional equipment.

I'd say if they had introduced Primaris without any fluff explanation or just declaring it as a new armor mark AND making them compatible with old marines (Allowing for the same exquipment and use of transports) nobody would be upset aside from the people who are not playing Space Marines and always roll their eyes about yet another bunch of unnecessary Space Marines year after year.

Yeah, but you know what?

All the kicking and screaming with Death Guard got done in the index (when every existing DG player lost their bikes, Terminators, Oblits, forge/maulerfiends, etc) and then when they came out with a new kit, they only superseded one existing kit - the plague marines, and even then they kept their wargear, transports etc compatible so existing DG players could at least use some of their old stuff.

DG also had a microscopic fanbase compared to the combined fanbases of Marines, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.