Leadership 7 space marines, someone please explain!

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**Bremon**

I see Death Company get decimated by Ld regularly; generally ten are taken in a unit so you can maximize the value you get out of your few command points.

Frustratingly, many hordes seemingly have easy access to mitigation for their “lack of” leadership. Another reason the game skews their direction.

**Marmatag**

Bremon wrote:
I see Death Company get decimated by Ld regularly; generally ten are taken in a unit so you can maximize the value you get out of your few command points.

Frustratingly, many hordes seemingly have easy access to mitigation for their “lack of” leadership. Another reason the game skews their direction.

100% accurate.

Currently the game punishes elite armies harder on morale than horde armies.

Marines - and elite forces - are forced to go with smaller squads to work around morale.

**Bharring**

Dark Reapers and Shining Spears have the same problem. Only, instead of a "reroll morale" they have ... nothing. LD8, and fielded in large squads regularly. They aren't neutered by LD8.

**Ice_can**

Bharring wrote:
Dark Reapers and Shining Spears have the same problem. Only, instead of a "reroll morale" they have ... nothing. LD8, and fielded in large squads regularly. They aren't neutered by LD8.

They are also probably soulburst Ynarri though? At which point if you've got to shoot twice and fight twice loosing a model or so to moral is outwieghed by the ability to have get those free double activations.

The other reason people MSU Marines, Custodes etc is how else do they maximise the amount of overpriced CP they can make without just saying screw this may aswell play guard and swapping out all your marines for Guard.

**Bharring**

Oh, Reapers and Spears are *certainly* better than Marines. They do a lot more.

But with Reapers having been one of the units you always faced, and Spears being one of those units now, if Ld were a problem for them, people would be exploiting it.

If Ld isn't a problem for those units, then why is it a problem for a unit with better Ld mechanics?

**Marmatag**

Bharring wrote:
Dark Reapers and Shining Spears have the same problem. Only, instead of a "reroll morale" they have ... nothing. LD8, and fielded in large squads regularly. They aren't neutered by LD8.

True. Because Dark Reapers are infinitely more survivable than marines.

In practice, because of their range, they are 2+ save with -1 to hit. Additionally, with Fire & Fade, it is supremely difficult to even target them. Secondly, with a Farseer, you can't really deep strike in range of them without paying a serious price, of course, if they're behind a wall, there is probably a denial bubble protecting them. Most people apply Fortune to their Reapers, as well, for a 5++.

I'm on board with a lot of stuff you say, but this is a terrible comparison, and i think you know that.

If a marine unit had the damage capability of Ynnari Spears that would be in every marine list, no question. At some point, survivability has to suffer if your damage is THAT good. Agree/ Disagree? It's difficult to think of a unit that has the raw sustained offensive capability of Ynnari Spears.

I would also say that Morale was designed to mitigate people bringing large units. Yet, in practice, the armies that bring hordes - have functional immunity to the mechanic. Do you think that this is the way things should be? It's kind of on the same vein as Knights having infinite CP thanks to Imperial Guard. It's probably unintended. I think it's safe to say that the Morale mechanic isn't working as intended.

**fraser1191**

Marmatag wrote:

If ATSKNF allowed you to choose to auto-pass morale tests, you would instantly see 10 man squads, or squads with more than 5 dudes.

Are you hinting at something with your inside look at CA 2018?

**Marmatag**

fraser1191 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

If ATSKNF allowed you to choose to auto-pass morale tests, you would instantly see 10 man squads, or squads with more than 5 dudes.

Are you hinting at something with your inside look at CA 2018?

Nope :(

Don't expect rules changes like this.

**Bharring**

Spears/Reapers are definitely better than stock Marines. My point is that you never hear of people using Ld to hurt *them*. And Marines are harder to use Ld against than them. If they don't have a problem with Ld8, why would Marines have a problem with rerollable Ld8?

**Martel732**

Marmatag wrote:
You can literally tell how good a codex is by the combination two things:

1. Army Bonus. Chapter tactics, relics, etc.
2. Stratagems.

Stratagems scale best with larger units. It is an absolute no brainer that bigger squads, to take advantage of stratagems, is ideal.

Blood Angels:
Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, get the most out of the BA deep strike + assault combo stratagems. You can't field DC in squads of 10 because leadership 7. BA have bonkers good stratagems despite anything Martel says, they just can't make full use of them because of how overpowered Chaos, Imperial Guard, and Eldar are.

Space Wolves:
Anything Outflanking, the cost of this for MSU is rather large. 4 squads of 5 is twice as expensive as 2 squads of 10. Consider stratagems such as Chooser of the Slain, Keen Senses, True Grit. These work best with bigger squads. Also, Wolf Guards in the squads take the size up, and is well worth it.

Dark Angels:
Increase plasma damage on bigger squads with Weapons of the Dark Age. Don't forget others like Deathwing Assault - being able to drop 40 shots into chaff and then deep strike another squad in the void is pretty damn useful.

Deathwatch:
These guys benefit from being in bigger squads because you can bring a lot of different models and get all kinds of special rules in a kill team. Put the inceptor in there and they can fall back and shoot, put in an aggressor, put in hellblasters, fill with intercessors. Super flexible squads that can pump out dakka and are generally well protected with combined rules.

In an overall general sense, you want to fight twice with a big squad.

Codex Marines don't really have much reason for bigger squads, but they have garbage, flavorless stratagems. All is made well with Guilliman, though. In a general sense, a devastator squad is better with more bodies (without factoring in morale) because that is additional ablative wounds for the lascannons you just purchased. Also, in scenarios where you can mix-n-match wargear, bigger squads allows for some creative defensive options. Like, 1 Stormshield in a unit of 10. You may not want to pay that defensive tax for every 5 man squad.

If ATSKNF allowed you to choose to auto-pass morale tests, you would instantly see 10 man squads, or squads with more than 5 dudes.

Newsflash: if your strats fail vs the meta units, they are not powerful strats. Plus, DC are 20 pts/w minimum, and nothing outside dg units are worth 20 points per wound. BA units are bad. This is a direct contributor to BA strats being bad.

Also, screens still autowin vs blood angels.

**Marmatag**

Bharring wrote:
Spears/Reapers are definitely better than stock Marines. My point is that you never hear of people using Ld to hurt *them*. And Marines are harder to use Ld against than them. If they don't have a problem with Ld8, why would Marines have a problem with rerollable Ld8?

Because they have other layers of durability baked into them, via stratagems, and also, how they play functionally on the table. I highlighted some of this for reapers.

**Galef**

Marmatag wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Spears/Reapers are definitely better than stock Marines. My point is that you never hear of people using Ld to hurt *them*. And Marines are harder to use Ld against than them. If they don't have a problem with Ld8, why would Marines have a problem with rerollable Ld8?

Because they have other layers of durability baked into them, via stratagems, and also, how they play functionally on the table. I highlighted some of this for reapers.

Just further evidence that Marines should have been 2Ws from the start of 8E. That would fix their durability issues

-

**Bharring**

"Because they have other layers of durability baked into them, via stratagems, and also, how they play functionally on the table. I highlighted some of this for reapers."
But Marines have other layers of durability baked into them, beyond Guardians? Which are run in much larger numbers and are more vulnerable to Ld?

In other words, there are both more durable and less durable units that are more succeptible to Ld than Marines. But Ld isn't a problem for them. So why is it Marines? Are they just in some durability sweet spot? If so, how does that work?

**Crimson**

Galef wrote:
Just further evidence that Marines should have been 2Ws from the start of 8E. That would fix their durability issues

The marines GW wants you to use were. Not that it really fixed the issue as there are too many cheap D2 weapons.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
"Because they have other layers of durability baked into them, via stratagems, and also, how they play functionally on the table. I highlighted some of this for reapers."
But Marines have other layers of durability baked into them, beyond Guardians? Which are run in much larger numbers and are more vulnerable to Ld?

In other words, there are both more durable and less durable units that are more succeptible to Ld than Marines. But Ld isn't a problem for them. So why is it Marines? Are they just in some durability sweet spot? If so, how does that work?

It's just harder to remove enough in one turn to force a test, because the reapers aren't bumbling all over themselves trying to get within rapid fire range.

**Bharring**

If the argument is that it's more impactful on less durable models, then why are Marines impacted more than, say, Guardians?

**Martel732**

I don't think they are. Guardians have no access to ignore morale other than the Avatar, if I recall. Guardians are also equally if not more overcosted than marines as well.

I solve DC leadership problems with Astorath. It's just that the DC themselves aren't worth 20 ppm to begin with. Any further losses to morale put them straight into the trash tier.

**Marmatag**

Bharring wrote:
If the argument is that it's more impactful on less durable models, then why are Marines impacted more than, say, Guardians?

Virtually everything runs through the marine statline in marine-land. You aren't fielding shining spears, dark reapers, etc, with the basic guardian statline. Stop being obtuse my dude. Guardians might be more impacted, sure. But most of the Eldar stuff isn't. And you can always scrounge for the nonsense example. Fenrisian Wolves are greatly impacted by morale, more so than Guardians, so Guardians are fine right?

**Bharring**

The "but all Marines share a statline" is particularly specious when discussing why LD8 + Reroll is a huge problem for Marines, but LD8 no Reroll is no issue at all for Reapers or Spears - Reapers and Spears also share the Aspect Warrior statline, which is the Marine statline but worse.

I'm not being obtuse. If Marine Statline -1 doesn't have a problem, then the problem can't be that Marine Statline is too low.

If more durable units are OK having worse Ld because they're more durable, but less durable units are OK having less Ld because they're less durable,

I'm not sure I'm seeing how it all fits together?

**Martel732**

It goes back to how you described the use of Eldar. Eldar will have their one unit buffed out the ying yang and the other unit with have minor buffs, but be at 48" range.

If marines field multiple 10 man units, it's pretty easy to pick one out and cause a nasty morale test. In practice, your two Eldar units are harder to chip down than some generic marine squad. Marines have a horrible tendency to get cut to pieces like guardsmen trying to get to effective range.

Once you start fielding expensive Eldar squads beyond your capability to buff, Eldar have the same problem.

**Marmatag**

You're being absolutely clownish, Reapers and Spears are way, way, WAY more survivable than Marines, so leadership doesn't come into play because those units do not take the same number of casualties.

What the feth are we even doing talking Guardians? Guardians don't pay for ATSKNF. They SHOULD suffer more morale losses. And when they do, it's not as painful because they are much cheaper.

When I take morale losses in my DE, it makes sense, and I accept it. Because i'm not paying an absurd premium per model. A unit of 10 death company that loses 2 guys to morale has lost over 40 points in one bad roll. That is bonkersville.

**Martel732**

They're only kinda cheaper. Although once you start gearing marines, it gets ugly fast.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:

True. Because Dark Reapers are infinitely more survivable than marines.

In practice, because of their range, they are 2+ save with -1 to hit. Additionally, with Fire & Fade, it is supremely difficult to even target them. Secondly, with a Farseer, you can't really deep strike in range of them without paying a serious price, of course, if they're behind a wall, there is probably a denial bubble protecting them. Most people apply Fortune to their Reapers, as well, for a 5++. .

Marmatag wrote:
You're being absolutely clownish, Reapers and Spears are way, way, WAY more survivable than Marines,

So A Devastator squad deployed in the back of an army will have a 2+, and will have a -1 to hit. Same thing. A 5++ only comes into the equation then once you start firing weapons with a -4 or better, which are fairly rare. Both armies can screen against deep striking. Without fire and Fade, the durability appears to be functionally the same. The much despised Disintegrator Cannon will treat those targets equally. The much despised Mortars will have an easier time killing Reapers for their lower toughness.

**Table**

I dunno. Last time I was playing my Nightlords mono list I was playing a game vs a Marine soup list (which is rare in my local meta). MSU tacs which he ran a whole two of did not lose any to morale. There were none left to roll for morale.

Marines need a buff. Badly. All flavors. Including spikelords.

**Jidmah**

To me it sounds like the bigger issue is that marines have no incentive to pick larger squads, usually because you can max out special weapon on 5 marines, and all others are just ablative wounds - except those wounds are overcosted and actually cause the unit to die faster due to morale.

ATSKNF should not ever make a test worse, but outside of that, I think no army should be ignoring morale as an army-wide rule. While it's rare, the fluff clearly states that despite their genetic enhancements in that regard, marines are not fully immune to fear.

**Aaranis**

I agree there's almost no reasons to have maxed out squads because of special/heavy weapons slots available. The exception I see are those that come from DS (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, DW Knights, DW Termies). Otherwise having a 10 man unit of MEQ is asking for it to be shot, but then that eases your first turn roll as that makes less deployments. If we could run 9 heavy weapons in a Devastator squad I'd run 9 plasma cannons.

Though I believe 10 men squads of Intercessors in cover are quite durable and nice to hold on an objective, especially in DA as you can't lose more than one to Morale and reroll your 1s to Hit in the shooting phase when not moving.

**Gitdakka**

I think the 6th-10th marines should be cheaper, since they give less in game value. So first 5 dudes 13 pts each next 5 dudes 10pts each.

I believe a similar approach is already used in horus heresy and also when using PL for open play.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Don't marines still have combat squads? In previous editions you can get a 10 man squad and then split it into 2 5 man squads, allowing you to field 2 squads for 1 slot in the FOC.

**Jidmah**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't marines still have combat squads? In previous editions you can get a 10 man squad and then split it into 2 5 man squads, allowing you to field 2 squads for 1 slot in the FOC.

They still do, but what is the point of that? Fielding two units of five tacticals (or similar) yields twice as many heavy/special weapons, sergeants and CP, for zero points. There is little reason to pay 65 points for five bolter marines that aren't filling troop slots.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Jidmah wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't marines still have combat squads? In previous editions you can get a 10 man squad and then split it into 2 5 man squads, allowing you to field 2 squads for 1 slot in the FOC.

They still do, but what is the point of that? Fielding two units of five tacticals (or similar) yields twice as many heavy/special weapons, sergeants and CP, for zero points. There is little reason to pay 65 points for five bolter marines that aren't filling troop slots.

They no longer get 1 special weapon for every 5? That's odd. In previous editions they could do that, iirc.
Yeah, if its capped at 1 special or heavy weapon there's not really any incentive to use that rule. GW gonna GW I guess.