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The only thing they could really do to progress the story is have the Emperor die. Then watch the Imperium try to keep itself together in the end battles as Terra is overwhelmed by deamons and Ultramar becomes the new homeworld of the Imperium

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

Oh my god! Have you seen star wars fandom? The toxicity there is somewhere between Russian chemical waste depot and the fukishima reactor core!

Just have a look at this, and be advised there is A very offensive image here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sg29Sa6QFes&t=377s

Could this be any more toxic an image?

Some of the actors accosiated with star wars have received death threats and such levels of hate they have had to shut down their social media. George Lucas sited the hateful toxic nature of star wars fandom after the prequels as one reason he sold the rights off, he didn't want to deal with the fans anymore.

I know we had gamergate and there was that ridiculous EP of Law & order SVU about these ridiculous stereotypes of gamers kidnapiing and terrorizing a female game developer, and there was he recent death caused partially by a gamer swatting someone (mostly by a trigger happy cop who decided to kill someone for simply not obeying orders screamed at him on his own property just to show what a badass he was and how youcre gonna obey or die.)

But honestly, there are fhandoms as bad or worse than gaming in general and 40k in particular...

Brutus_Apex wrote:. . That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Speak for yourself, I could give 2 gaks about them, actually I couldn't because givins free and my gaks cost.

I really have no problem with how hamfisted the primaris, compared to some of the early fluff it's actually reasonable. You know, like space marines are criminals, etc

I'm rather "skeptical" about the fact that both Guilliman and the Primaris were accepted by the Imperium so easily. That one was resurrected and the others created seems to make sense to me, but the fact that they weren't destroyed seems strange. Wouldn't a large portion of the Imperium not trust Guilliman's return; what if he was daemon possessed? What if it wasn't the "real one"? What if he was a traitor like half of his brothers?

Of course, Guilliman would have supporters and some people, like more radical inquisitors and Magos for example, would have been fine with new tech or playing with geneseed., but others would have considered that as a sign that Guilliman was corrupted and needed to die. If there has at least been mention of Guilliman having to crush his opponents to have the Primaris (and himself) accepted or him having to negotiate an exception for them like promise you will never sanction any other changes to the geneseed of Space Marine and will never investigate again the work of the Emperor and do X or Y penence for it. It would have been better.

epronovost wrote:
I'm rather "skeptical" about the fact that both Guilliman and the Primaris were accepted by the Imperium so easily. That one was resurrected and the others created seems to make sense to me, but the fact that they weren't destroyed seems strange. Wouldn't a large portion of the Imperium not trust Guilliman's return; what if he was daemon possessed? What if it wasn't the "real one"? What if he was a traitor like half of his brothers?

Of course, Guilliman would have supporters and some people, like more radical inquisitors and Magos for example, would have been fine with new tech or playing with geneseed., but others would have considered that as a sign that Guilliman was corrupted and needed to die. If there has at least been mention of Guilliman having to crush his opponents to have the Primaris (and himself) accepted or him having to negotiate an exception for them like promise you will never sanction any other changes to the geneseed of Space Marine and will never investigate again the work of the Emperor and do X or Y penence for it. It would have been better.

Well if guilleman was so huge he might be accepted as a primarch on sight. Also I suppose all the imperial diviners and readers of the emperor's tarot might be getting messages and readings that show a hero returning. Plus the emperor him-xxxxing-self admitted guilleman into the golden throne chamber and he was there for a while, so yeah, he was accepted as a hero returned.

Plus it was the imperium's darkest hour (holy $&%# that's really saying something!) And peolle wanted a hero. In comes guilleman in his holy armor and peolle are like "Yay! Our savior is here! Save us, guilleman! "

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

Oh yeah, in six years I've only met one player in person that I didn't like. Online though there is some toxicity.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

Oh yeah, in six years I've only met one player in person that I didn't like. Online though there is some toxicity.

I've yet to experience this 'toxicity', other than pathetic people thinking that not wanting marines to be women, is being sexist.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

Oh my god! Have you seen star wars fandom? The toxicity there is somewhere between Russian chemical waste depot and the fukishima reactor core!

Just have a look at this, and be advised there is A very offensive image here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sg29Sa6QFes&t=377s

Could this be any more toxic an image?

Some of the actors accosiated with star wars have received death threats and such levels of hate they have had to shut down their social media. George Lucas sited the hateful toxic nature of star wars fandom after the prequels as one reason he sold the rights off, he didn't want to deal with the fans anymore.

I know we had gamergate and there was that ridiculous EP of Law & order SVU about these ridiculous stereotypes of gamers kidnapiing and terrorizing a female game developer, and there was he recent death caused partially by a gamer swatting someone (mostly by a trigger happy cop who decided to kill someone for simply not obeying orders screamed at him on his own property just to show what a badass he was and how youcre gonna obey or die.)

But honestly, there are fhandoms as bad or worse than gaming in general and 40k in particular...

Is that safe for work? Otherwise I'll check it out tonight. You're right about the star wars fandom as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

I agree, like everything, we have our bad elements. But compared to others, well, there is a reason I do not play online games much anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

Oh yeah, in six years I've only met one player in person that I didn't like. Online though there is some toxicity.

I've yet to experience this 'toxicity', other than pathetic people thinking that not wanting marines to be women, is being sexist.

I've seen some toxicity. Luckily it gets dealt with pretty fast due to the face to face nature of our hobby.

Speak for yourself, I could give 2 gaks about them, actually I couldn't because givins free and my gaks cost.

I used "We" as a generalization.

Seems like you cared enough to point out that you don't care though.

epronovost wrote:
While I haven't made the transition yet to 8th eddition and haven't bought a single codex of the 8th eddition so far, I did got curious about the Primaris Marine fluff and read their entries on 40K popular online encyclopedia and frankly from their resumé, I don't get the hate their fluff got. It seems fairly good, it's not really exceptional, but it does remind me of the fluff of the Grey Knights. It seems to make sense within the setting which is already filled with secret armies, secret organisation and superhuman warriors. So where's all the beef comming from?

It's outright heresy.

Horus heresy happened when Horus (with the whispers of the ruinous powers) thought that the big E was abandoning his 'sons' and attaining godhood, the very thing which big E himself reviled and banned.

What g-man and cawl are doing is essentially what would've happened if Horus won - create his version of what he sees as closer to perfection of humanity. - or closer to attaining godhood.

 skchsan wrote:

epronovost wrote:
While I haven't made the transition yet to 8th eddition and haven't bought a single codex of the 8th eddition so far, I did got curious about the Primaris Marine fluff and read their entries on 40K popular online encyclopedia and frankly from their resumé, I don't get the hate their fluff got. It seems fairly good, it's not really exceptional, but it does remind me of the fluff of the Grey Knights. It seems to make sense within the setting which is already filled with secret armies, secret organisation and superhuman warriors. So where's all the beef comming from?

It's outright heresy.

Horus heresy happened when Horus (with the whispers of the ruinous powers) thought that the big E was abandoning his 'sons' and attaining godhood, the very thing which big E himself reviled and banned.

What g-man and cawl are doing is essentially what would've happened if Horus won - create his version of what he sees as closer to perfection of humanity. - or closer to attaining godhood.

Heresy is a religious concept. The Emperor doesn't revile religion. He simply thought it was an obstacle to his objectives, but he changed his gun of shoulder the moment he realised that being revered as a god had its advantages.

epronovost wrote:
I'm rather "skeptical" about the fact that both Guilliman and the Primaris were accepted by the Imperium so easily. That one was resurrected and the others created seems to make sense to me, but the fact that they weren't destroyed seems strange. Wouldn't a large portion of the Imperium not trust Guilliman's return; what if he was daemon possessed? What if it wasn't the "real one"? What if he was a traitor like half of his brothers?

Of course, Guilliman would have supporters and some people, like more radical inquisitors and Magos for example, would have been fine with new tech or playing with geneseed., but others would have considered that as a sign that Guilliman was corrupted and needed to die. If there has at least been mention of Guilliman having to crush his opponents to have the Primaris (and himself) accepted or him having to negotiate an exception for them like promise you will never sanction any other changes to the geneseed of Space Marine and will never investigate again the work of the Emperor and do X or Y penence for it. It would have been better.

This is exactly the huge missed opportunity they could of had with the fluff. Instead of everyone jumping on the Gulliman/Cawl bandwagon and adopting their (extremely heretical) batch of Space Marines +1, there should of been scores of worlds, chapters, inquisitors, etc who view this as chaos/xenos corruption and view those who fall under Gulliman's influence to be tainted by corruption. They literally call the cut off area of the IoM the Dark Imperium and it would of been a perfect way to raise the stakes of the setting while staying true to the core elements of the IoM (distrust, ignorance, superstition, regression, etc). Let the Dark Imperium hold onto the old marines while the chapters that follow Gulliman can adopt all the Primaris stuff.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Speak for yourself, I could give 2 shi#ts about them, actually I couldn't because givins free and my shi$ts cost.

I used "We" as a generalization.

Seems like you cared enough to point out that you don't care though.

I guess you missed the joke(90's rap lyric), it's ok, I wasnt pointing anyone out.

I guess you missed the joke(90's rap lyric), it's ok, I wasnt pointing anyone out.

Yeah, sorry. I guess I missed the joke lol

I don't really listen to hip hop.

All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

But calling him Robbie G just makes him seem so down to earth and relatable.

Honestly, I don't mind. The 10k years is a bit of a long time to wait, but I give it a pass as Crawl means a very slow pace, and GW is built on dodgy pun names!

I look forward; the addition of Crawl opens up the opportunity for GW to back fill the details of what happened post heresy through to the Time of Ending with a single coherent plot; who does 't want to know the finer details of who Crawl is and how he managed to achieve what he did? How did he know he had to be in specific places at specific times? What did he spend the rest of his 10k years doing? Surely not just napping?!

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

It's not our fault GW gave him a name that just criss out to be made fun of.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

It's not our fault GW gave him a name that just criss out to be made fun of.

Thank your lucky stars that Russ was the primarch chosen for the name of the IG's mainstay battletank. Imagine if it was the primarch of the 1st. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It cheapens the lore of the space marines.

The whole point of the space marines was that they were ascended beyond simple humanity to be it’s saviours, and invariably failed and brought humanity’s doom. The irony being that even the most powerful human/post human being in the galaxy could not save humanity from itself and in the end we are all doomed.

All the flaws and the history are what made you fall in love with the marines despite the fact that they are post human killing machines. That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Then along comes these “moar awesomer” marines to take the place of the ones we have known and loved for decades. They don’t have the flaws and are better in every way. How fething boring can you get? So where’s the tragedy? Where’s the plight? It makes everything that happened before inconsequential if they can just force these marines into existence to pick up the slack for the rest of the imperium.

This also flies in the face of the established lore of 40k. It’s the dark ages of the future. There is no room for advancement. There is only ignorance, religion and war. I want 40k to be doomed. I don’t want to see a renaissance. That’s not what I signed up for with 40k. I want the most grim dark, hopeless, horrific fantasy space opera ever devised.

Also, I’ve been around the block with this hobby and had Fantasy destroyed right before my eyes. To watch GW do the same with Fenris, Baal and Cadia breaks my heart. To see it replaced by garbage lore and garbage rules is painful.

Don’t pander to the lowest common denominator GW. Have some self respect. There are more important things in this world than money like art and pride in your work.

Great post

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

Its kinda Matt Ward and GW's fault, the Ultramarines and Guilliman are so squeaky clean and Mary Sue, its just funny to take the piss out of them. I mean I collect SW's and they get the piss taken out of them because they are second in line for being Mary Sue's, you just have to get a thicker skin and learn to have banter. The Mary Sues will always be made fun of the most.

 Luciferian wrote:
But calling him Robbie G just makes him seem so down to earth and relatable.

Robbie G isn't nearly as idiotic as Rowboat Girlyman, or Robot Gillman, or whatever dumb names they are spewing lately that have the words R and G at the start of them. In fact, it's pretty good nickname that I'm sure I'll use every now and then, since it's just that. A nickname.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

Its kinda Matt Ward and GW's fault, the Ultramarines and Guilliman are so squeaky clean and Mary Sue, its just funny to take the piss out of them. I mean I collect SW's and they get the piss taken out of them because they are second in line for being Mary Sue's, you just have to get a thicker skin and learn to have banter. The Mary Sues will always be made fun of the most.

Mary sue? Someone hasn't been reading the books lately. There are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels in existence, after all, who take the cake for being more pathetically special then the Ultramarines could ever hope to match. Mutants in the 41st millenium getting away with flaunting their mutations, heretics killing Inquisitors or defying the inquisition, and a chapter lineage that literally has every one of it's marines eventually go crazy and rip their allies apart in a blood fueled frenzy. The fact that they still have chapters made from their blood lines or haven't had a crusade called against them and something more palatable put in their place is practically mind boggling in a galaxy like 40ks.

Out of the big four loyalist chapters, the Ultramarines can hardly be considered the mary sues.

Then again, judging by your avatar, you are a fan of a dude that was too angry to die and likes killing his own dudes.

People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
But calling him Robbie G just makes him seem so down to earth and relatable.

Robbie G isn't nearly as idiotic as Rowboat Girlyman, or Robot Gillman, or whatever dumb names they are spewing lately that have the words R and G at the start of them. In fact, it's pretty good nickname that I'm sure I'll use every now and then, since it's just that. A nickname.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

Its kinda Matt Ward and GW's fault, the Ultramarines and Guilliman are so squeaky clean and Mary Sue, its just funny to take the piss out of them. I mean I collect SW's and they get the piss taken out of them because they are second in line for being Mary Sue's, you just have to get a thicker skin and learn to have banter. The Mary Sues will always be made fun of the most.

Mary sue? Someone hasn't been reading the books lately. There are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels in existence, after all, who take the cake for being more pathetically special then the Ultramarines could ever hope to match. Mutants in the 41st millenium getting away with flaunting their mutations, heretics killing Inquisitors or defying the inquisition, and a chapter lineage that literally has every one of it's marines eventually go crazy and rip their allies apart in a blood fueled frenzy. The fact that they still have chapters made from their blood lines or haven't had a crusade called against them and something more palatable put in their place is practically mind boggling in a galaxy like 40ks.

Out of the big four loyalist chapters, the Ultramarines can hardly be considered the mary sues.

Then again, judging by your avatar, you are a fan of a dude that was too angry to die and likes killing his own dudes.

That's ridiculous. Roboute is actually putting in Astartes to lead Ultramar, not only are they marines they are politicians in charge of whole sectors of spacetime. Only an ultramarine fan could deny the mary sueness of the ultramarines lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

Its also because of how ultramarine fans take being made fun of. DA's should have it the worst having a legion based on gay jokes, but its the ultramarines fans that get it the worst because they can't handle a joke. Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either. I've been in arguments to the point where they are furious, actually in a rage due to a game.

Honestly I feel the big issue was the sudden drop of the new army, and then combine this with it’s a faction that is almost inevitably going to replace the flagship models caused a big shakeup after decades of stagnation.

I like the idea of Primaris Marines in terms of lore, but I would have done things differently. Assuming you are planning it out well in advance I would have given vague hints to Cawl having connections to the RG or Corax, or have a random mechanicum guy name drop him and make it look like he’s just a nobody during the Raptor program. Then have a short story a year later vaguely connecting him to the cursed founding, again just a side comment from some random mechanicus person. This way it makes the Primaris marines effectively new Raptors, but taking Cawl 10,000 years what Corax did in a couple, and a failed founding to boot. This also would have strengthened GW position when they released them, they can reference the hints they gave over the years, rather than play catch-up in an after the fact explanation, which always looks worse in my opinion. The idea behind better Astartes is sound (Raptors and Fabius) lore-wise, it’s just they gave the answer to a math question without the proof essentially.

Though I don’t like the monopose construction the models are in, which is a shame since I like the models otherwise. Once I get past one squad my OCD doesn’t like it, even though objectively even the old models could only be in so many poses without conversions also.

Arachnofiend wrote:People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

Really? His name is hardly silly in my opinion. In fact, it's one of the better Primarch names.

Let's see, we have the Primarch who is angry all the time - let's call him Angron! But, admittedly, that's quite a cool name, so how about other ones...
The one with hands of metal - Ferrus Manus!
The one who is themed around ravens? Corvus Corax!
The one leading the Alpha Legion? Alpharius (and his twin/opposite brother, Omegon!)

But sure, let's ignore those low hanging fruit ones - how about Lion El'Jonson? Sorry, but El'Jonson is a ridiculous sounding surname, and Lion is a pretty odd forename alone.
Russ, yeah, that does sound Fenrisian (as far as we can tell from Fenrisian names and how they seem inspired by Norse ones), but Leman? That's a bit of a strange sounding one for a supposedly-Norse culture. Not impossible, but Magnus would actually sound more Norse.

Guilliman actually sounds like a suitably foreign but believable name, and actually sounds like more thought went into the name than just "hurr durr he's angry/has metal hands/likes birds".

But, that's just me.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:That's ridiculous. Roboute is actually putting in Astartes to lead Ultramar, not only are they marines they are politicians in charge of whole sectors of spacetime. Only an ultramarine fan could deny the mary sueness of the ultramarines lol

But other Chapters do that too? Like, I don't know, the Space Wolves being in charge of the Fenris system? Sure, they might not intervene with the locals, but they are undoubtedly the highest form of government there.

Or how about the Salamanders? They're in charge of Nocturne. Or the Iron Hands, who rule Medusa?
But sure, if you're looking for Chapters who rule whole sectors of space - the Astral Claws, who ruled the whole Badab sector, spring to mind.

Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter who have political duties, nor even the only ones who rule over sectors of space.

Its also because of how ultramarine fans take being made fun of.

I've got nothing wrong with making fun of aspects of the Ultramarines. The "spiritual liege" jokes and pointing out characters like Leandros from the Space Marine games, Ultramarines with sticks up their rears who know nothing but the Codex, are well worth joking about.

It's going for flat out misinformation and jokes that have absolutely no basis which is what most Ultramarine players (and other players too) dislike, because they're simply not funny.

Pointing out funny things with actual lore? Sure, great. Making jokes from things that simply aren't there or justified? You just look immature.

DA's should have it the worst having a legion based on gay jokes,

Sorry, why is that funny? Their Primarch and legion name is based off a homosexual, and other than that nothing else? That's a perfect example of what I mean by a poor joke.

If you want to joke about the Dark Angels, I'd point out the joking aspects being Lion El'Jonson's name (not because of it's origins, but because of it just sounding strange), the fact half the legion fell and the lengths they got to hiding it and their general OTT obsession with the Fallen.

Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either.

Considering that you've demonstrated above that you attribute mary sue things to the Ultramarines that they're hardly the only ones to be guilty of, are you sure that your "criticisms" of them are actually correct in the first place? I mean, are you sure the Ultramarine fans you talk to aren't actually the ones in the right?

I'm not saying the UM don't have anything to joke about. I'm just saying that "jokes" based on things that aren't real aren't funny.

It's not really fair to compare Fenris to the Ultramarines. Fenris is a feral world ruled by the Space Wolves versus a mini empire ruled by the Ultramarines.

I find the whole argument about which Chapters are Mary Sues very annoying. People just end up misrepresenting events to support themselves and spread misinformation until it's as bad as me saying Ultramarines are secretly taking over the entire Imperium by spreading Successors.
The only thing worse is people saying Eldars.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either.

Considering that you've demonstrated above that you attribute mary sue things to the Ultramarines that they're hardly the only ones to be guilty of, are you sure that your "criticisms" of them are actually correct in the first place? I mean, are you sure the Ultramarine fans you talk to aren't actually the ones in the right?

The only really "mary sue" statement I've heard about the Ultramarines is how every Chapter of UM heritage would immediately step up and support them against anyone no matter what. The Chapters that were founded when Guilliman split the Legions, sure, just as those split from other Legions still keep in touch with their founders. But every Chapter ever founded with UM geneseed? Hardly. They're not robots programmed to be wannabe-ultramarines, they have their own traditions and goals.

Ofc, if Guilliman (or Calgar) had a good reason to ask for their help they would help - but not just "because Ultramarines".