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epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Addendum. wtf happened to this thread?

An important and serious discussion about humor with perfect stranger, bigotry and the representation of sexual minority in popular fiction media occured. It happens once in a while, especially as we grow more critical of popular fiction and media treatment of minorities. No need to panic, we can still talk about why the Primaris Marine fluff is so reviled. In my opinion, it sits uncomfortably and was unnesseary, but its not THAT bad. It stand to be improvedby expending on their origin and especially be extanting on the character of Cawl who, like his faction, is new fluff wise.

Wow.

epronovost wrote:
No need to panic, we can still talk about why the Primaris Marine fluff is so reviled. In my opinion, it sits uncomfortably and was unnesseary, but its not THAT bad. It stand to be improvedby expending on their origin and especially be extanting on the character of Cawl who, like his faction, is new fluff wise.

I just started reading Dark Imperium a couple of days ago and I'm almost done with it, but I think you have a good point in that whether or not the Primaris fluff can ultimately go over successfully lies with Cawl. He is at least an interesting (or rather, mysterious) character. If they can pull off some well-executed revelations or character developments with him it will help me swallow the Primaris lore a bit easier. It would honestly be kind of shocking if he falls out of grace with the Ad Mech or the Imperium at large because the legitimacy of the Primaris would be cast into doubt. I don't think they'll take things in that interesting of a direction but Cawl himself has at least piqued my interest.

 Luciferian wrote:

I just started reading Dark Imperium a couple of days ago and I'm almost done with it, but I think you have a good point in that whether or not the Primaris fluff can ultimately go over successfully lies with Cawl. He is at least an interesting (or rather, mysterious) character. If they can pull off some well-executed revelations or character developments with him it will help me swallow the Primaris lore a bit easier. It would honestly be kind of shocking if he falls out of grace with the Ad Mech or the Imperium at large because the legitimacy of the Primaris would be cast into doubt. I don't think they'll take things in that interesting of a direction but Cawl himself has at least piqued my interest.

I personnaly have no problem believing that in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the Imperium seeked to improve Space Marines. They had both the need for it and were not yet completly stagnant.

I don't have a problem either with the idea that they could have been create in secret since such enterprise were done in the past.

My only problem is linked to the Imperium accepting them and the new technologies they bring at the same time with them in a time of crisis, at a moment where the Imperium was basically the most seized with puritanical and zealous mindset. I don't think the Imperium as a whole should have accepted it so easily. I want to see the struggle for Caw to keep the project secret and ongoing and receive the autorisation to deploy them.

epronovost wrote:

I personnaly have no problem believing that in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the Imperium seeked to improve Space Marines. They had both the need for it and were not yet completly stagnant.

I don't have a problem either with the idea that they could have been create in secret since such enterprise were done in the past.

My only problem is linked to the Imperium accepting them and the new technologies they bring at the same time with them in a time of crisis, at a moment where the Imperium was basically the most seized with puritanical and zealous mindset. I don't think the Imperium as a whole should have accepted it so easily. I want to see the struggle for Caw to keep the project secret and ongoing and receive the autorisation to deploy them.

I think the main lore-related complaint with their creation is that it violates the stagnation and stalemate elements of the Imperium of Man and moves them forward technologically in an unprecedented way, but I agree.

From a story-telling perspective, it's just too good a point of tension building to pass up. Since Robby G has also tied his fate to the Primaris and Cawl it could make for some good possibilities for all of them to fall afoul of the rest of the Imperium together, even if it turns out OK. Hopefully they explore that kind of ground and don't just let it slip by.

 Luciferian wrote:

I think the main lore-related complaint with their creation is that it violates the stagnation and stalemate elements of the Imperium of Man and moves them forward technologically in an unprecedented way, but I agree.

I kind off disagree on that point. their creation dates back from the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. They are not a new technology. They are a very old one. It just was never released before, neither are the anti-grav tanks. The Imperium always had anti-grav vehicles, but none of that size probably because they were ressource consuming, but Cawl had almost 10K years to arm them. The only new thing is the fact that the techonology was released from its vault. Mars is stll just as supersticious as it always was and opposed to change. Primaris Marines and their vehicles are not numerous compared to Space Marines who are themselves not numerous compared to the rest of the Imperium. In the end, the Imperium didn't progressed more technologically than when Custodes and their own advanced weapons like their jetbikes were brought into the field.

From a story-telling perspective, it's just too good a point of tension building to pass up. Since Robby G has also tied his fate to the Primaris and Cawl it could make for some good possibilities for all of them to fall afoul of the rest of the Imperium together, even if it turns out OK. Hopefully they explore that kind of ground and don't just let it slip by.

On that we agree.

Can I ask, are you gay

This is a gay thread, guy. I know for a cold fact that two people posting in this thread were having gay sex at the exact time they were reading it. If you yourself are not a lesbian with another girl’s dick in your other hand right as you’re reading this, get out. Get your life together, burn down an Applebee’s, condone first degree murder, and advocate cannibalism.

Space Marines are supposedly 8' supermen, wheras they are slightly bigger than guardsmen in their armour. Now the new Primaris are 8' supermen, they arent bigger they have truescaled.

In 30k everyone rode around in Rhinos then for religious reasons only astartes and Inquisition forces could have them.

[extended dialogue about how the mechanicus are stupid]

This is why people don’t like primaris fluff. There is oblivious and wrong stuff all over the internet about how space marines are supposed to be 8’ tall and how outrageous it is that the mechanicus aren’t 21st century liberal capitalist rationalists, or rhinos (it was land raiders) are restricted for religious reasons (it was logistic reasons). So GW made up some new marines who really are eight feet tall, and that bothers both the people who thought regular marines were an idiotic eight feet tall all along, and the people who paid attention when GW said they were a vaguely useful size. I freakin love primaris on the other hand because I’m kind of a size queen and it gets me going.

I don't play loyalist marines so I haven't performed more than a cursory scan of the new fluff. I see nothing particularly interesting there.

What was hugely weak sauce for me, is the continued superiority of the Imperium. It just doesn't produce a particularly interesting story. Your "heroes" should never be the most powerful, the best equipped, the most supported. That's generally lazy writing. It's why the Horus Heresy was an excellent invention. Space Marine chapters need flaws. Not lame werewolf flaws, but flaws of character, or previous actions, of decision-making. They would be far more intriguing if they were outnumbered, outgunned, struggling for survival. Every 5-10 years GW puts on the "big bad Chaos show" as they did with the Gathering Storm books.

Narratively they like to pretend that Chaos are resurgent and that there is genuine risk to the Imperium of man....but it's never given any balls. Cadia was blown up. Good riddance. Boring planet, boring guard models..we lose very little. The story of Cadia's fall was atrocious in typical "cram every single race into the same planet" nonsense.

How did the Imperium meet this new threat? This supposed resurgent tide of Chaos? They hit the "Easy" button at the nearest Office Max on a Forgeworld and randomly supplied their whole army with advanced, relic wargear and units. That immediately kills any gravitas that the events surrounding the fall of Cadia had. The "oh man, Chaos is scary...and now we have all new toys!" just doesn't endear me to anything in the universe. It's just relatively lazy storytelling.

I don't find the new storyline heinous...but it sure doesn't intrigue me or interest me in the slightest. It was just a poor excuse for a new wave of model kits.

What I find so frustrating is that the correct path was right in front of them.

Space Marines are supposedly 8' supermen, wheras they are slightly bigger than guardsmen in their armour. Now the new Primaris are 8' supermen, they arent bigger they have truescaled.

Add a primarch and you have a natural answer. Astartes are tough but not as tough as they were in 30K, an awakened primarch means a 1st generation geneseed source and marines can be made as they were in 30K. You could call them primaris as they are throwbacks to the first generation marines. There is no reason why microscopic amounts of Guilliman genetic material couldnt 'fix holes' in geneseed of other primarchs, so primaris could be rolled out around the board. i am assuming here that Guilliman is an unending source of 1st generation genetic material, if not geneseed itself.
It is not unreasonabe to say you can renew geneseed for any marine legion with a drop of primarch blood. CSM primarchs dont count as they are all either dead or daemons.

This also means that CSM shrink to some extent, though new CSM sculpts are bigger than standard marines, they are inbetween primaris and old marines in scale.

As for the vehicles, Guilliman could simply order them unlocked. In 30k everyone rode around in Rhinos then for religious reasons only astartes and Inquisition forces could have them. Grav tanks might have been forbidden technology. But if Guilliman orders Repulsors printed from the STC bumbling guys in red robes cant really do much about it. Just assume that Guilliman took an interest in STC tech first time around, which is highly likely allowing for his character.
Cawl doesnt need to invent a single thing. No single man overturning millenia of stagnation alone. No have Guilliman bypass ten millenia of dogma. we know for instance from one of the forgeworld books that the Lighning fighter took a full millenia to enter service because of the prayer rituals surrounding the STC and testing phase.

It could work like this:

Guilliman. why arent we using grav tanks anymore.
Calgar. Grav tanks, I thought only xenos had them?
Guilliman. No we certainly had the ability. Send in that red robed fool.
Cawl shuffles in.
Guilliman. I want to you print Repulsor tanks from the STC reserves.
Cawl. What? ..... accessing data.
Gulliman. and we need heavy dreadnought while we are at it, and gravbikes.
Cawl. Ahh found it. The Repulsor tank s a most holy design, we need extra prayer to not provoke its creator spirit.
Guilliman. Extra prayer eh? Hmm
Cawl. anything that is bourne aloft from the ground is holier. We needed a thousand years of meditation cycles and placations before the Lighning fighter could be approved. The Repulsor would take even longer, its is not winged as to a bird but is held aloft by the magicks of ancient technology.
Guilliman. a thousand years testing cycle for a light fighter.....hmm.
Cawl. Prayer and meditation yes
Primarch Facepalm
Guilliman. Cawl, I have new instructions for you. Print out a Repulsor tank this afternoon directly from the STC.
Cawl. Without all the order of service?
Guilliman. Yes, just print the tank.
Cawl. If we start meditations now we can be ready for first assemblies in twenty years, less if we do a cycling penitent fast.
Gulliman. Cawl, print the tank.
Cawl. But without the holy procedures.
Guilliman. Add the STC log file to the cognitator here and press Start.
Cawl. Not the holy rune of activation, what if we are judged unworthy by the machine god. We dont even have a choir, no incense burner, nothing!!
Guilliman PRINT. THE. TANK.
.... and Cawl. I want it on the helipad this afternoon for flight testing.
.... and Cawl. once that is done print another 20000 in the first batch. I want twenty for every chapter. Priority delivery.



A bit of thought and you would have the entire new range worked out. Thankfully it is still faxable. The Imperium is big on moral truth. This might indeed be what is happening. Guillimans return allowed marines to get bigger and old STC constructs got activated bypassing all the religious dogmas Guilliman had an evident history of no patience for. However another story had to be put out, for now, so as not to offend the Ecclesiarchy, and that story is also what the fans are currently getting.

Reposted from page 3 because I took the time to contribute but it got drowned out by a sub-discussion.

That was genius!

Because the roll out of the lore was handled badly.

Enough