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 Crimson wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
So what's an acceptable amount of cheese?

Well, as you're such a smart guy and a master list builder, you can probably asses the appropriate amount of cheese to ensure a fair game if you know that the opponent is bringing their Grey Knights.

So everyone else has to accommodate the Grey Knight player with a bunch of additional units to tone their list down really aggressively? Or is the Grey Knight player also expected to acquire some soup so that he can also tone his list up and let them meet in the middle?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

So everyone else has to accommodate the Grey Knight player with a bunch of additional units to tone their list down really aggressively? Or is the Grey Knight player also expected to acquire some soup so that he can also tone his list up and let them meet in the middle?

Either works. It would be great if this game was better balanced, but it isn't. If everyone always brings the best stuff available, it means that huge chunksof the units in the game and some entire factions might just as well not exist. Personally would just leave my Imperial Knight home if I know that the opponent is bringing Grey Knights. I'd take my Reivers instead, or something.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The social contract extends as far as point level and the mission (which can be rolled for).

Otherwise what contract is there?

That we’re both there to have fun.

I'm ignoring the rest because you KNOW I was talking about the game and not just simply basic societal norms.

You're not playing the game unless you're having fun doing it. However it isn't on me if someone doesn't paint his models or won't make a decent army list. That won't affect the outcome of my list building and modeling (I can't paint so I plan to commission everything again).

You not having fun playing against an army is honestly NONE of my concern. I'm the last person to use the argument of L2P, but part of the game IS list building. If you don't want to put in the effort, be ready to lose games. I don't care. If anything, it makes the game worse for both players because you're not doing your best.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You not having fun playing against an army is honestly NONE of my concern. I'm the last person to use the argument of L2P, but part of the game IS list building. If you don't want to put in the effort, be ready to lose games. I don't care. If anything, it makes the game worse for both players because you're not doing your best.

Yeah. that's just absurd. This is game where the models are expensive an take a lot of time to paint. Furthermore, the themes and imagery are huge selling point, so people want to use models that appeal to them on those fronts. 'Doing your best' in the way you meant literally would mean ditching a fully completed Grey Knight army, buying a IG or Eldar army, then spending an year painting them. (And once you're done they have been nerfed, so time to buy an new army again and start over.) And frankly, if you don't care whether your opponent is having fun, then in my book that makes you... well, not a very nice person, to put it politely.

Basically what Crimson said.

If anyone is inflicting Their hobby on anyone else, they’re in the wrong.

I also note with some interest that you excised my comment about ‘if you make it clear you want this game as tournament pracitce’, and it’s socio contractural opposite.

Nobody. And I mean nobody is here to massage the ego of the next gamer. If I do you a gaming favour, the same is expected in return.

Nobody is actually right when it comes to hobby. There’s no point gate keeping, because there’s no gate to keep. But, man, you can be actually wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
List building?

Define that please. Go on. Massive game. Multiple books. Tell me what ‘list building’ should actually entail, as a universal term.

Seriously.

This just seems to be a Mexican standoff. The eternal argument between "play a good list" and "tone your tournament caliber list down for casual play"

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah. that's just absurd. This is game where the models are expensive an take a lot of time to paint. Furthermore, the themes and imagery are huge selling point, so people want to use models that appeal to them on those fronts. 'Doing your best' in the way you meant literally would mean ditching a fully completed Grey Knight army, buying a IG or Eldar army, then spending an year painting them. (And once you're done they have been nerfed, so time to buy an new army again and start over.) And frankly, if you don't care whether your opponent is having fun, then in my book that makes you... well, not a very nice person, to put it politely.

Yes, exactly, models are expensive and take a lot of time to paint. That's why it's absolutely unreasonable to expect the player with the stronger army to buy and paint a bunch of new stuff to build a weaker army, while the player with the weaker army is entitled to keep playing their GK.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yes, exactly, models are expensive and take a lot of time to paint. That's why it's absolutely unreasonable to expect the player with the stronger army to buy and paint a bunch of new stuff to build a weaker army, while the player with the weaker army is entitled to keep playing their GK.

It indeed would be unreasonable. But most players, especially veterans like you, have larger collections than what they can reasonably field in one game, and thus tuning the power of the list withing that collection is perfectly possible.

 Crimson wrote:
It indeed would be unreasonable. But most players, especially veterans like you, have larger collections than what they can reasonably field in one game, and thus tuning the power of the list withing that collection is perfectly possible.

Most casual/narrative players, especially the kind of person who loves GK enough to invest in them, have lots of painted stuff because they love painting so much and thus should be expected to include some top-tier units in the mix.

(And I actually don't have that much of a collection, and a lot of it is tied up in expensive LoW models that are utter trash in 8th. I'm very limited in what kind of list I can bring.)

 Peregrine wrote:

Most casual/narrative players, especially the kind of person who loves GK enough to invest in them, have lots of painted stuff because they love painting so much and thus should be expected to include some top-tier units in the mix.

Sure, if they have those they obviously could bring them against a stronger faction. But there really isn't anything that would let Grey Knight compete against min-maxed IG or Eldar that would not result jettisoning pretty much all the Grey Knights!

(And I actually don't have that much of a collection, and a lot of it is tied up in expensive LoW models that are utter trash in 8th. I'm very limited in what kind of list I can bring.)

See, you do have proper models to use against Grey Knights, 'utter trash' sounds absolutely perfect!

 Blackie wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I honestly don't see any purpose (or fun) in winning a game without effort. If that happens tone down the list is certainly more fun than avoiding to play at all.

It comes down to this for me. I think on some level, I play games to get beat. Winning a game trivially isn't really any fun, but losing because you intentionally held back isn't as fun as testing your limits. I want to be challenged, and while that can't happen every game, I find the experience I'm actually chasing is one where I give it my all whether that results in coming up short or winning by the skin of my teeth.

Nah, you want to win, not to be challenged.

If you really want to be challenged, and you consider yourself a skilled player, try to win with non-optimized lists. That's a real challenge. I'm not saying field a trash list if your tipycal one is too strong, just tone it down a bit so you can prove yourself and your opponent will have the chance to prove himself as well. List building means nothing in the era of internet. When I started, in the 90s it was a thing, now you have immediate access to tactical discussions and tournament winning lists. There are no skills in list building anymore, unless you completely ignore the internet.

I'm glad you know me so well.

You're right that there's no skill in list building. That's kind of the point. There's definitely fun to be had in winning with a weaker list, but a loss feels padded with the obvious caveat that you started from behind. Taking something strong and losing with it is humbling. It forces you to face your limits and shows you that you still have a ways to go. Nothing quite generates that need to improve in me like taking something really strong, playing it to the best of my ability, and coming up short.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You not having fun playing against an army is honestly NONE of my concern. I'm the last person to use the argument of L2P, but part of the game IS list building. If you don't want to put in the effort, be ready to lose games. I don't care. If anything, it makes the game worse for both players because you're not doing your best.

Yeah. that's just absurd. This is game where the models are expensive an take a lot of time to paint. Furthermore, the themes and imagery are huge selling point, so people want to use models that appeal to them on those fronts. 'Doing your best' in the way you meant literally would mean ditching a fully completed Grey Knight army, buying a IG or Eldar army, then spending an year painting them. (And once you're done they have been nerfed, so time to buy an new army again and start over.) And frankly, if you don't care whether your opponent is having fun, then in my book that makes you... well, not a very nice person, to put it politely.

So you take that time and money to make good models. Simple as that. I don't have any sympathy.

Be thankful this ain't Yugioh or Magic where a card can cost $100 and gets none of your personal flair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah. that's just absurd. This is game where the models are expensive an take a lot of time to paint. Furthermore, the themes and imagery are huge selling point, so people want to use models that appeal to them on those fronts. 'Doing your best' in the way you meant literally would mean ditching a fully completed Grey Knight army, buying a IG or Eldar army, then spending an year painting them. (And once you're done they have been nerfed, so time to buy an new army again and start over.) And frankly, if you don't care whether your opponent is having fun, then in my book that makes you... well, not a very nice person, to put it politely.

Yes, exactly, models are expensive and take a lot of time to paint. That's why it's absolutely unreasonable to expect the player with the stronger army to buy and paint a bunch of new stuff to build a weaker army, while the player with the weaker army is entitled to keep playing their GK.

Peregrine said it in a better manner.

 Crimson wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Yes, exactly, models are expensive and take a lot of time to paint. That's why it's absolutely unreasonable to expect the player with the stronger army to buy and paint a bunch of new stuff to build a weaker army, while the player with the weaker army is entitled to keep playing their GK.

It indeed would be unreasonable. But most players, especially veterans like you, have larger collections than what they can reasonably field in one game, and thus tuning the power of the list withing that collection is perfectly possible.

There are also lots of veterans in the refusing to bring a powerful army camp - they have large collections as well... But somehow it's much more likely to be the weak army players wanting accommodation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It indeed would be unreasonable. But most players, especially veterans like you, have larger collections than what they can reasonably field in one game, and thus tuning the power of the list withing that collection is perfectly possible.

Most casual/narrative players, especially the kind of person who loves GK enough to invest in them, have lots of painted stuff because they love painting so much and thus should be expected to include some top-tier units in the mix.

(And I actually don't have that much of a collection, and a lot of it is tied up in expensive LoW models that are utter trash in 8th. I'm very limited in what kind of list I can bring.)

This isn't always true.
You can't assume that because a person really puts work into the fluffy side of their army, that they have a slew of models at home they're just not using.

I have a very focused theme for my Necron army, and I've never bought anything outside that theme. For some people 40k can be an expensive hobby. I've bee trying to save enough for another box Warriors for almost a year, but I'm broke AF. Does that mean I shouldn't play at my FLGS, because in the last year I've only won 1 game out of about 12 due to having a 3rd Ed army?

 Blndmage wrote:

This isn't always true.
You can't assume that because a person really puts work into the fluffy side of their army, that they have a slew of models at home they're just not using.

You also can't assume that a tournament player has piles of spare models - there are plenty that sell models to fund army updates in order to afford those continuous updates. You didn't call out the problem with that assumption?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

There are also lots of veterans in the refusing to bring a powerful army camp - they have large collections as well...

But you're imply a connection between weak army and new player in order to attach some sympathy to your argument.

Not really. I'm just saying that people can work out what results and enjoyable game, rather than writing off 90% of the units. If Perergrine wants to use those 'utter trash' superheavies then perhaps a local Eldar player could humour them and choose some of the less optimal units in their collection in order for them both to have an enjoyable game instead of those beautiful models just staying on the shelf.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

This isn't always true.
You can't assume that because a person really puts work into the fluffy side of their army, that they have a slew of models at home they're just not using.

You also can't assume that a tournament player has piles of spare models - there are plenty that sell models to fund army updates in order to afford those continuous updates. You didn't call out the problem with that assumption?

I'm not saying the tournament player needs new models, they have the option of playing to the level of thier opponent. Try new tactics, new unit organization, if you know your opponent isn't at your level, you can adjust and have a fun game for everyone.

 Crimson wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
So what's an acceptable amount of cheese?

Well, as you're such a smart guy and a master list builder, you can probably asses the appropriate amount of cheese to ensure a fair game if you know that the opponent is bringing their Grey Knights.

Here's the problem, all I own for Tau is a 2k competitive list with 3 riptides and a yvahra. I don't have 4-5k of stuff to choose from, I don't have anything to build a list that wouldn't be considered cheese. Am I supposed to just not play? Also, how am I supposed to know what the opponent is playing? I don't usually plan games ahead of time. I'll hang out and paint and shoot the breeze with store employees. Other people will show up looking for a game. I grab my army out of the car and throw it on the table. I rarely know what faction I'll be playing against for the day, let alone knowing their entire list ahead of time to try and limit myself to something that's evenly matched. If we're both bringing 2k points our lists should be evenly matched. 40k doesn't quite work that way, but it's my opponents job to make their list. If they make a subpar list, that's not my fault or my problem. I don't know what people think makes Warhammer somehow different or special from playing chess, racing cars, shooting matches, or anything else with a winner and loser. I don't have to remove my turbo when I meet someone for a race just because their car might not have as much HP, that would be stupid. I don't have to switch from a custom 1911 to a Glock for shooting matches just because some of my opponents might not have a tricked out pistol that shoots a 1/2" group at 50 ft. I'm not expected to tie one hand behind my back if I play a game of 1 v 1 basketball at the rec and I'm 2" taller or a step quicker than the guy across from me. Why am I expected to know my opponent's list and then voluntarily handicap myself down to their level in 40k? The game has points, those exist so that I don't have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics and own 4k of models to make sure I can play a "fair" 2k game.

 Toofast wrote:
Here's the problem, all I own for Tau is a 2k competitive list with 3 riptides and a yvahra. I don't have 4-5k of stuff to choose from, I don't have anything to build a list that wouldn't be considered cheese. Am I supposed to just not play? Also, how am I supposed to know what the opponent is playing?

I assume you at least have some idea of your local meta. But if that all the models you have, then that's that. Though, I'm sure you have some suboptimal units soon enough when the most powerful stuff eventually gets nerfed!

The game has points, those exist so that I don't have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics and own 4k of models to make sure I can play a "fair" 2k game.

Well, we can agree that this is how it should work! But sadly, it doesn't. 2K of Craftworld Eldar is not equal of 2K of Grey Knights.

If, when organizing a pick up game, I said something like

"I'm not a competitive player, I've got a very narrative list, I'm just looking for a fun game, so maybe don't play to crush me turn 1."

Would you run your list softer? Not saying that you can't run your competitive list just that you play with the above in mind. Would you even play against me?

It's hard to have a fair completely-blind pickup game.

Fortunately, metas tend to coallasce. So you should get a feel for what's the appropriate "competitiveness" for your meta.

 Blndmage wrote:

I'm not saying the tournament player needs new models, they have the option of playing to the level of thier opponent. Try new tactics, new unit organization, if you know your opponent isn't at your level, you can adjust and have a fun game for everyone.

Deliberately playing badly isn't fun for lots of people, even those that aren't tournament players.

I'm also not sure how "new tactics" balance out things like hugely more effective firepower.

That's one of those suggestions that really doesn't work in practice. List building, as has been pointed out, is a really big portion of this game.

Bharring wrote:
It's hard to have a fair completely-blind pickup game.

Fortunately, metas tend to coallasce. So you should get a feel for what's the appropriate "competitiveness" for your meta.

What if you have a collection that's weak in your meta, and simply can't afford new models? I mean, I have 3ishK of Necrons, I can't build anything even remotely competitive, barring 500-750 level play. All of my lists can fit into the lore behind my army. My local meta is very full of tourney focused players. I have no other way to play. What do I do?

 Crimson wrote:

The game has points, those exist so that I don't have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics and own 4k of models to make sure I can play a "fair" 2k game.

Well, we can agree that this is how it should work! But sadly, it doesn't. 2K of Craftworld Eldar is not equal of 2K of Grey Knights.

2K of Craftworld Eldar selected at random is not equal to 2K of Craftworld Eldar careful selected for effectiveness.

Pick up games only work where both players are bringing 2K of models selected for effectiveness (everyone can see where all of the factions are at when making these choices...) Then it's reasonably balanced.

This is, of course, the difficulty inherent with pickup games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
I have no other way to play. What do I do?

Play with like-minded friends. These problems all become substantially minimized.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Deliberately playing badly isn't fun for lots of people, even those that aren't tournament players.

True. And that's why rather tone my army down in the listbuilding phase and then play as well as I can once the models are actually placed on the table. You can even do some toning down without switching any models, such as choosing a weaker army trait. Eldar for example are way less obnoxious when they aren't Alaitoc.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
I have no other way to play. What do I do?

Play with like-minded friends. These problems all become substantially minimized.

There are none. Also as the only girl 40k player out if the two dozen or so competitive players, I'm not going to some random guy's house alone. Anyone in the area the tried to play more casually basically got told "get better or don't play", not explicitly, but the words are being loudly unspoken. Thus the meta being what it is. All the casual folks basically got scared off.

Good. You should be pushed to do your best in this game.

 Blndmage wrote:

There are none. Also as the only girl 40k player out if the two dozen or so competitive players, I'm not going to some random guy's house alone. Anyone in the area the tried to play more casually basically got told "get better or don't play", not explicitly, but the words are being loudly unspoken. Thus the meta being what it is. All the casual folks basically got scared off.

Yeah, that is really unfortunate. This is exactly the sort of thing I hate to see to happen. I really wish people could be more flexible about how they approach the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Good. You should be pushed to do your best in this game.

Well, my earlier assessment about the quality of your character seemed to be spot on!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Good. You should be pushed to do your best in this game.

How?
Explain how I can do better without any new models. The closest I get a stupidly heavy skew list, which I could run, but probably would still lose, and make me look like an ass for bringing it.

Here's all the models I own, including the half built ones I generally don't feild because they're not done:

2x destroyer lord w/ warscythes
Lord
Cryptek
Cryptek w/ cloak
59 warriors
34 Scarab
4 wraiths
6 Spyders
6 Sentry Pylons w/ heat cannon

That's it.

My best shot is spamming all 6 Pylons with Spyders and a cloaktek, backed by a Scarab farm and warriors.

It gets crushed, unless I play new people, and feel like an ass doing so.

 Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Good. You should be pushed to do your best in this game.

How?
Explain how I can do better without any new models. The closest I get a stupidly heavy skew list, which I could run, but probably would still lose, and make me look like an ass for bringing it.

Unless you're doing strictly by kit, anything as Counts-As is terrifically easy.

Which army you play?