Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Arson Fire wrote:
just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.

So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?

 Brother Castor wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.

So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?

All changes in 2017 is also in 2018, you just wont have the missions from 2017 one, also IDK if custom land raiders are in 2018 one as well.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.

So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?

All changes in 2017 is also in 2018, you just wont have the missions from 2017 one, also IDK if custom land raiders are in 2018 one as well.

That's great news. I wouldn't expect those things to be in the latest CA too (just like SoB won't be in the next one).

What about FAQ changes, are they included too?

Honestly I think we should get all the Grey Knight players together to sort this out. Maybe in a soundproofed locked room with no wifi so we don't have to put up with the complaining every week.

Isn’t that exactly what a forum thread is? Don’t want to read it, leave.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Honestly I think we should get all the Grey Knight players together to sort this out. Maybe in a soundproofed locked room with no wifi so we don't have to put up with the complaining every week.

So we should just shut up when GW takes our army out back, shoots it in the head, and says they fixed everything when they only put colored tape over the bullet wound?

The army is dead, man.

I'm sorry, I just went through the entire list and looked at the points changes. There are sweeping point reductions throughout the unit and wargear entries, to say otherwise is disingenuous. Could the army do with a few more effective changes? Yes, I think so...+1 attack on base PA dudes would be a start. But if you were expecting more of a points drop than you received, you have to be dreaming. The discount to characters, weapons, etc will make up for the lack of points drops on core units.
Right off the bat I can see that if you take Draigo (-60), a Stormraven with twin MM, twin las, etc (-24), shooty ven dreads (-40), GMNK with hvy psilencer and hvy psy (-26), etc., you are already at a 150pt drop which would more than make up for a 2pt saving on say 30 strike squad marines. It still doesn't get them where they need to be overall, but GW was not lying about drastic points drops.
The army doesn't have a points problem more than it has a rules problem. It needs better/cheaper strategems, veteran stats on all it's marines, and then we may be getting close.

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

 Jaxler wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
Honestly I think we should get all the Grey Knight players together to sort this out. Maybe in a soundproofed locked room with no wifi so we don't have to put up with the complaining every week.

So we should just shut up when GW takes our army out back, shoots it in the head, and says they fixed everything when they only put colored tape over the bullet wound?

The army is dead, man.

It's not dead until you put the models down.

From an R&H player, keep moving with it, keep up the torch until GW fething squats it.

 bullyboy wrote:

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.

The problem is the point drops were on units/options that still are worse than cheaper options, or didn't do enough to make them better.

If something is 20 points too expensive, and it goes down 6 points, it still is horrible.

Meanwhile everyone got those same buffs on things that counter us, namely plasma.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm sorry, I just went through the entire list and looked at the points changes. There are sweeping point reductions throughout the unit and wargear entries, to say otherwise is disingenuous. Could the army do with a few more effective changes? Yes, I think so...+1 attack on base PA dudes would be a start. But if you were expecting more of a points drop than you received, you have to be dreaming. The discount to characters, weapons, etc will make up for the lack of points drops on core units.
Right off the bat I can see that if you take Draigo (-60), a Stormraven with twin MM, twin las, etc (-24), shooty ven dreads (-40), GMNK with hvy psilencer and hvy psy (-26), etc., you are already at a 150pt drop which would more than make up for a 2pt saving on say 30 strike squad marines. It still doesn't get them where they need to be overall, but GW was not lying about drastic points drops.
The army doesn't have a points problem more than it has a rules problem. It needs better/cheaper strategems, veteran stats on all it's marines, and then we may be getting close.

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

Why just not take a gulliman instead of a draigo and a NDK, same raven with same reductions, same dread, instead of strikes vets, hellblasters or intercessors and scouts. Better shoting, don't have to worry about baby smite getting stoped or failing to be cast, you also get new formations in the new book. You probably even have left over points to buy some IG to support. Your proposed army saves 150pts. Lets say the most optimal build saves 200, didn't other armies get the same. Ad mecha stuff drop even more then GK stuff, on units they actually take. IG got the same 150-200pts discount.

And by the way GW said that after the change GK players will want to play with paladins and purfires. Do you think that after the points discount, specially to plasma, any GK player wants to play with those two just like GW told them they would want to?

 Quickjager wrote:
I would love to complain; but who the feth do I complain to anymore? I wrote emails, talked about it on here, I get people telling me to shut up it'll be fixed in CA2018.

Now they'll tell me CA2019

gak we still got Daedalus over here saying GUYS THEY DIDN'T LIE*

WHICH ISN'T TRUE, ADMECH got the biggest point drop. I know I play have an Admech army and it had enormous point drops everywhere, Cawl even had the same point drop Draigo had.

ACK-SHOO-ALLY Cawl didn't quite get as much. Here's both minus the changes from CA2017

As you can clearly see your statement is false.

Ad Mech specific items got about 230 points of reductions. I can't see a couple to be sure.
GK specific items? 633 points.

Ad Mech





GK

Outside of draigo and the NDK which of the GK units or upgrades are actually getting used ?

Lets say you save 150pts, just like almost everyone else after the change. What do you buy with it? A single dreadnought, a razorback and uncomplet strike squad. You can't take more then 3 NDKs, but even fiting 2 and a draigo aint easy.

On the other hand for ad mecha something like the onagers getting cheaper can shift some stuff around.

Everyone email 40k FAQ with your concerns! I hate that we have to play this game but it is what we need to do. Make a massive stink about the poor showing for the grey knights.

 Quickjager wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.

I have written in pencil all of the points drops in the GK codex next to the original entry. 60% of the unit entries (that had a points value) got decreased, and this does not include those decreased in last CA.
Apart from draigo, you have significant drops to..

Brother Captain -40
Brotherhood Ancient -38
Champion -23
Chaplain -39
Dreadnought - 22
Grand Master -30
GMND -20
All Land Raiders -39 to -64
Librarian -44
Paladin Ancient -42
paladins -6
Purifiers -7
Techmarine -36
Ven dread -25
Combi-weapons (not all that useful granted)
Hvy Incinerator -21
Hvy psycannon -6
Incinerator -5
Missile Launcher -5
Twin las -10
Psycannon -7, 9 on a terminator
Twin MM -14
DCCW -10

In percentage of points dropped, all of these are significant. Of course, GK players will disagree because they wanted 50% point drops across the board.

My point is that the points dropped are significant. You will indeed get at least one additional unit in the force, maybe more. However, I also agree that the army still is an underdog in a competitive environment, but this cannot be fixed by point adjustments alone.

Brother Captain -40 wont be used you need slots for draigo or an NDK. also the point difference between draigo and any non NDK character makes the character bad
Brotherhood Ancient -38 does nothing
Champion -23 does nothing
Chaplain -39 does nothing
Dreadnought - 22 can fit 1 in to the list if all points drops are used on it
Grand Master -30 lol
GMND -20 yes we took those before
All Land Raiders -39 to -64 no one takes those
Librarian -44 bad rules , no good psychic powers, there are other psykers in the army etc
Paladin Ancient -42 Has no utility and dies too fast in an army that has too few bodies to protect him. also we don't have hellblasters or some other units that would like the buffs
paladins -6 over costed
Purifiers -7 over costed
Techmarine -36 can't take harnass , ah and th e-36 is from the almost 100pts he cost before. so dont think a GK techmarine cost 15 pts or something
Ven dread -25 see dread
Combi-weapons (not all that useful granted)
Hvy Incinerator -21 lol
Hvy psycannon -6 costs too much for what it does
Incinerator -5 bad as any flamer in 8th ed
Missile Launcher -5 I think Storm ravens can have those and that is it
Twin las -10 yes, nice goes on the dread
Psycannon -7, 9 on a terminator. bad weapon with bad stats, psi lancer is better vs all targets
Twin MM -14 sr weapon
DCCW -10 see dread


So the change from my perspective looks like this. Maybe I am wrong. I don't claim to be the best or even good player. Comparing to lets say the IG or eldar or Ad mecha changes there is a ton more stuff they can use.

My point is that the points dropped are significant.

Everyone got those drops though. All characters got cheaper for all marines. All dreads got cheaper too. So if we just compare GK to marines, and I think people would agree that normal marines of any sort were better then GK, then if the changes to GK are the same as the changes to marines. the state of GK does not improve. That is not counting the small possibility of a valid formation for any marine faction other then GK.

as the 50% goes, GK players actualy expected rules changes and points drops. The points drops the way they are now could be ok. If GK had their rules fixed too.
I mean do you seriously think that a 20+pts marine stat dude is a balance base for an army, in an edition where you either go horde or are super resilient?

 bullyboy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.

I have written in pencil all of the points drops in the GK codex next to the original entry. 60% of the unit entries (that had a points value) got decreased, and this does not include those decreased in last CA.
Apart from draigo, you have significant drops to..

Brother Captain -40
Brotherhood Ancient -38
Champion -23
Chaplain -39
Dreadnought - 22
Grand Master -30
GMND -20
All Land Raiders -39 to -64
Librarian -44
Paladin Ancient -42
paladins -6
Purifiers -7
Techmarine -36
Ven dread -25
Combi-weapons (not all that useful granted)
Hvy Incinerator -21
Hvy psycannon -6
Incinerator -5
Missile Launcher -5
Twin las -10
Psycannon -7, 9 on a terminator
Twin MM -14
DCCW -10

In percentage of points dropped, all of these are significant. Of course, GK players will disagree because they wanted 50% point drops across the board.

My point is that the points dropped are significant. You will indeed get at least one additional unit in the force, maybe more. However, I also agree that the army still is an underdog in a competitive environment, but this cannot be fixed by point adjustments alone.

Yeah, I think people get their Hope's up too much. I think GW is just trying to be cautious so they dont accidentally cause new issues. I'm sure they tested dropping more points.

And hey maybe they do have some beta rules they want to try and those could always come in a big faq.

And since I like to play hq heavy this instantly drops a ton of points off my list without even evaluating the units, so I'm cautiously optimistic since I dont care about being top tier competitive, just playable.

I think the only thing that I would like is if i could opt out of force weapons on strike marines, then they would be a decent priced shooting core.

Karol wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm sorry, I just went through the entire list and looked at the points changes. There are sweeping point reductions throughout the unit and wargear entries, to say otherwise is disingenuous. Could the army do with a few more effective changes? Yes, I think so...+1 attack on base PA dudes would be a start. But if you were expecting more of a points drop than you received, you have to be dreaming. The discount to characters, weapons, etc will make up for the lack of points drops on core units.
Right off the bat I can see that if you take Draigo (-60), a Stormraven with twin MM, twin las, etc (-24), shooty ven dreads (-40), GMNK with hvy psilencer and hvy psy (-26), etc., you are already at a 150pt drop which would more than make up for a 2pt saving on say 30 strike squad marines. It still doesn't get them where they need to be overall, but GW was not lying about drastic points drops.
The army doesn't have a points problem more than it has a rules problem. It needs better/cheaper strategems, veteran stats on all it's marines, and then we may be getting close.

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

Why just not take a gulliman instead of a draigo and a NDK, same raven with same reductions, same dread, instead of strikes vets, hellblasters or intercessors and scouts. Better shoting, don't have to worry about baby smite getting stoped or failing to be cast, you also get new formations in the new book. You probably even have left over points to buy some IG to support. Your proposed army saves 150pts. Lets say the most optimal build saves 200, didn't other armies get the same. Ad mecha stuff drop even more then GK stuff, on units they actually take. IG got the same 150-200pts discount.

Calling bs on guard lists shaving 150-200 points from this CA. Ran every list I've used on battlescribe over the past six months and my highest points cut is 65, and that's mostly from the Sentinel price drop. You'd have to be running triple TC + triple sentinel to even crack 100 points saved.

My Single Crisis Suit Squad dropped 165ish points... actually more with the fact I'm replacing some guns with ATS now...

Why the hell did they single GK then, to be the supposed fixed faction?The changes listed are changes that were done too all factions. Marine characters went down in points as did the weapons listed, plus a ton of other stuff. 2pts Stormshield for example.

I mean can people that say that GK got improved crack up the GK codex and look at the hyped up units ? Look at the purfires, then look at the armies being played in 8th. Would you want to use them post the CA change, just like GW told GK players they would?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:


Calling bs on guard lists shaving 150-200 points from this CA. Ran every list I've used on battlescribe over the past six months and my highest points cut is 65, and that's mostly from the Sentinel price drop. You'd have to be running triple TC + triple sentinel to even crack 100 points saved.

I don't play IG. my friend plays a soup IG list and when I asked him, how much his list droped he said around 200pts. And I bet his castellan didn't go down in points. If it did the forums would have exploded by now.

Karol, you pretty much just took a sweeping look at the army of what you take now and applied the logic to the new points. Instead, you should be rethinking your army composition based on the new points and looking for alternative methods to achieve a goal. Say a 5 man Purifier Sqd with 2 Incinerators. They dropped from 164 to 119pts. That's a 27.5% points reduction. D6 smite vs elite targets is no laughing matter, but yes you have to get super close. I'm not saying it's still a good choice, but each player will have to reassess their units to see if they now have a place instead of blindly saying "their trash" when that opinion was firmly embedded with the original points in mind.

and here is GW's quote
"Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing."

So did they lie? No,.paladins went down 12%, Purifiers 27%. Pretty much what they said is what they delivered. They did not say that "Grey Knight players will be so much more competitive than before!".

 Smotejob wrote:
Everyone email 40k FAQ with your concerns! I hate that we have to play this game but it is what we need to do. Make a massive stink about the poor showing for the grey knights.

how do you do the massive part. There do not seem to be a lot of people playing GK. And everyone not playing GK, says they are just fine after the change. With 50% of the proposals to play the army after CA being to add as much ally in to it as possible.

Now If CA messed up eldar or IG, I could imagine their mail breaking down under the weight of posts. I don't think GW is going to be willing to put changes in to a new book, even less a book we technicly shouldn't have seen yet.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,

Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.

In percentage of points dropped, all of these are significant. Of course, GK players will disagree because they wanted 50% point drops across the board.

My point is that the points dropped are significant. You will indeed get at least one additional unit in the force, maybe more. However, I also agree that the army still is an underdog in a competitive environment, but this cannot be fixed by point adjustments alone.

And my point (and every other GK player) is that while GW supposedly did what they said on the tin (they didn't), they in fact dodged the issue entirely in regards to what units needed the decrease. Your point is therefore meaningless in any practical conversation that aims to actually be constructive.

Do you know what these reductions actually achieved? It means we have 132 extra points when we take our triple GMDK supreme cheese taco detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GK were and continue to remain a "solved" codex.

Karol wrote:
Why the hell did they single GK then, to be the supposed fixed faction?The changes listed are changes that were done too all factions. Marine characters went down in points as did the weapons listed, plus a ton of other stuff. 2pts Stormshield for example.

I mean can people that say that GK got improved crack up the GK codex and look at the hyped up units ? Look at the purfires, then look at the armies being played in 8th. Would you want to use them post the CA change, just like GW told GK players they would?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:


Calling bs on guard lists shaving 150-200 points from this CA. Ran every list I've used on battlescribe over the past six months and my highest points cut is 65, and that's mostly from the Sentinel price drop. You'd have to be running triple TC + triple sentinel to even crack 100 points saved.

I don't play IG. my friend plays a soup IG list and when I asked him, how much his list droped he said around 200pts. And I bet his castellan didn't go down in points. If it did the forums would have exploded by now.

There's no way he shaved 200 points off of 1400 points worth of guard. Does he have another imperium faction in his soup? I could maybe see it if he's running a lot of admech. But there's just no way he got that much savings unless he was doing something nutty like spamming sentinels and chimeras.

I quoted GW in my above post....they actually did exactly what they said they did.

 bullyboy wrote:
Karol, you pretty much just took a sweeping look at the army of what you take now and applied the logic to the new points. Instead, you should be rethinking your army composition based on the new points and looking for alternative methods to achieve a goal. Say a 5 man Purifier Sqd with 2 Incinerators. They dropped from 164 to 119pts. That's a 27.5% points reduction. D6 smite vs elite targets is no laughing matter, but yes you have to get super close. I'm not saying it's still a good choice, but each player will have to reassess their units to see if they now have a place instead of blindly saying "their trash" when that opinion was firmly embedded with the original points in mind.

How do you get it in to range of anything. But lets be open minded. Right now I have 5 GK with halabards, 15 termintors, draigo , 2 rhinos and a NDK. To run any elite msu unit like purfires, I would have to have at least 2-3 of them. I also need troops, and with the point drops to plasma and armies growing in number those can't be termintors.
Ok, so 3 boxs of strikes, 2 boxs of purifires, the rhinos I have are ok, but 2 for 5-6 squads aren't enough, so I would have to buy 2-3 more, and it would probably be better to buy razrobacks, they cost more money, but can pull double duty as rhinos. then 1-2 dreads, as they seem to have droped in points and maybe with astral aim they will work nice. Everyone seems to be telling me to run IG for CP, so 3 boxs of infantry and 2 officers should make me CA ready.

I don't have the cash for it. And if I did, with the number of boxs needed I could go in to a different army, that works better. AND I wouldn't have to worry at night what happens if GW really decides to not give primaris to GK ever, and just removes GK from the game, and leaves me with cash sunk in to models that were never good and only made me unhappy for a year or two.

Also you do know what the range on purfires smite is?

You still need to step back and reassess your army, then come back and say it's trash. Just because GW didn't drop points on what you wanted to take doesn't make it trash. GK are not the only marine army struggling with their core troops choices. Take a Scions battalion to get your CPs and objective secured (Inquisitorial troops?) and spend the rest of the points on elite GKs. Marine armies will still suck with their core troop choices, it's not a GK problem.

I just think it's way too early to say this is a BS fix without a proper introspective analysis of the changes. You may still be right, but you certainly haven't given it the opportunity to prove yourself wrong.

Then we disagree what constitutes a core unit in an army is, can YOU tell me where GW says what a core unit is?

Core to me are not Elite choices, at the very least a core unit should be a unit that an army can be designed around to support. Which I do think GMDK can meet the criteria of.

So I ask what is your actual point bullyboy.

"Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing."

So did they lie? No,.paladins went down 12%, Purifiers 27%. Pretty much what they said is what they delivered. They did not say that "Grey Knight players will be so much more competitive than before!".

that is some next level lawyer speak then. The point changes did not bring any flexibility or want of taking of overlooked units. If the rule of 3 didn't exist GK armies would probablly consists of multiples of GMNDKs. you think that with 12% drop on paladins anyone wants to run them, or the disfunctional purfires? Short range normal smite,and I mean realy short, unit that can't even deep strike on its own, not that deep striking wasn't nerfed. What the hell is it suppose to do the enemy? Walk to them, drive in a rhino out of which it can't cast, use the few CP to get teleported in and steal away CP from units that really need the CP every turn like the NDK?

I play with termintors and paladins, they make up most of my army, and they did not get better, not when plasma got cheaper.

 Quickjager wrote:
Then we disagree what constitutes a core unit in an army is, can YOU tell me where GW says what a core unit is?

Core to me are not Elite choices, at the very least a core unit should be a unit that an army can be designed around to support. Which I do think GMDK can meet the criteria of.

So I ask what is your actual point bullyboy.

My point is that GW delivered what they said they did, and most GK players currently haven't properly reassessed their army to see if notable and instead have thrown their toys out of the pram prematurely. Bottom line.