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In several lists people completely forget that GK exist. When people ask which army is the worst and I say GK everybody agrees but forgot they exist. I blame Matt Ward who made GK so overpowered that we have needed several punishment codexes. The Daemon specialization means that unless we are facing Daemons we are disabled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In several lists people completely forget that GK exist. When people ask which army is the worst and I say GK everybody agrees but forgot they exist. I blame Matt Ward who made GK so overpowered that we have needed several punishment codexes. The Daemon specialization means that unless we are facing Daemons we are disabled.

I've noticed that an apparent split is happening. People who don't play grey knights are claiming that people need to wait, and it's not that bad, grey knight players are thinking their army sucks still. I'd like to gently and slowly explain why grey knights suck, and why they still suck. I assumed I didn't need to break this down, but I will do so easily so even people with no understanding of grey knights can see the problem.

Here are key concepts and things required to understand grey knight's problems, that are not instantly apparent.

Grey knights pay for things they cannot use effectively. Each model has a force weapon built into the cost. All our infantry that aren't characters or paladins have 1 attack base or 2 in the case of terminators. You are paying out the nose for a weapon you can barely use. Everyone is a wizard! we can only use 6 spells (Really 4, but that's up next). Deep strike got nerfed, so a lot of times you'll be paying for deep striking units that can't deep strike, or have to wait until turn 2. So, grey knights are really just deep striking marines with storm bolters, that pay for gadgets they can't use. Purgation squads are paying for close weapons that are built into their cost that they trade away for heavy weapons. In fact, all our heavy weapons on power armored guys force us to give up the force weapon that we paid for already, and then make us pay for the heavy weapon.

Grey knights are not good at spells. Look at their spells. Vortex of doom is a horrible spell. It fails to go off 40% of the time, it only targets 1 model, so the AOE is rarely useful, and can hurt your own men. Purge soul is a worse smite. Oh boy, we've 4 spells then! Eh. Gate is great, but its use is kind of miffed by the fact that everything already has deep strike, or sucks, or doesn't need deep strike. Sanctuary is an amazing spell. Astral aim is a good spell, but is held back. It's really only good on dreadnaughts, so the one dread you run to abuse this spell is neat, but a dread out of LOS that can shoot you isn't going to carry the game. Anyone else is going to be too close for LOS to really matter or is going to be using gate/sanctuary. You could put it on purgation squads, but purgation squads are just worse strike squads. Hammerhand has the same problems as astral aim, what where it's held back by units wanting a better spell. Remember, we can only know one of these spells on a unit. Also, lets say you've two terminator squads looking to charge. One has hammerhand on it. They both have a 55% chance to make that 9 inch charge. Our smite is trash at 1 wound 12 inches.

Now, lets get to the other problem we have. Every power armored unit, save interceptors, are worse strike squads. Purifiers can't deep strike, and have a worthless spell, so they're worse than strikes and interceptors. Purgators can't deep strike, and all their weapon are worse than storm bolters, save psillencers, but psilencers are only better than storm bolters are select targets. Interceptors are just strike squads that can bounce up the board instead of deep strike.

Are heavy weapons are horrible. Psycannons are worse auto cannons. They've less range, same damage output. They're bad. Incinerators are useless on an army that comes from deep strike. flamers have problems this edition. If your grey knight army is getting charged, you've probably lost already. They are too expensive for the points, and there is no good way for the army to actually use the weapon. Psilencers are bad, but storm bolters are just as good and cheaper 7/10 times.

Deep strike has been nerfed. the army needs deep strike to actually get across the board. almost all our shooting is 24 inch range, so in order to do anything turn one, we need to move. With deep strike being changed, we cannot do much if anything turn one.

Grey knights get diminishing returns. the first two dreadknights grand masters with 3++ and one moving in turn one and rerolling its charge with another on the way is scary. You can only get 2 grandmasters to a 3++. The next grand master is a bad investment unless one of them dies. The 4rth is right out bad. We've only 6(4) spells, so every unit that's a caster after the 6th is paying for something it cannot use.

Double swords! double swords double the attacks of strike squads (and all power armored units). They only make terminators gain 50% more damage. Because of this, an equivalent amount of strike squads always does more damage than any terminator unit (including paladins). Also, double swords are our best weapon vs almost all targets, and the price of them is built into the model, unlike hammers. This problem also applies to all the banner boys with their +1.

I will now explain why most the point changes are not helpful due to the above problems

Apothecary 25 point drop. This is a good change, the problem is, you're not going to run many of these. Another problem is that they're not going to be healing many units that need it. Paladins and Terminators are still bad. He is still a slow-moving terminator.

Brother captain 40 point drop. Just get draigo or a grand master dreadknight.

Brotherhood anchient 38 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.

Chaplain 39 point drop. It is a worse grand master dreadknight. It has a problem keeping up with friends in combat as well.

Dreadnaught 22 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Mutliples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first. The first is a worse venerable.

Grand master 30 points drop. Worse grand master dreadknight.

Grand master Dread Knight. 20 point drop. You're bringing this and draigo as your HQ choices and only these. Everything else is worse. You can try to argue reasons why other options are nicer, but 3++ is too nice for me to listen to you.

Interceptor Squads 2 point drop. they are worse strike squads but cost more. They can jump up turn one, this is their selling point. You have to bring these pretty much, and they are bad. The price drop helps, but it is too little. they are worse Strike squads, and strike squads cost too much.

Land Raiders, multiple flavors of points drops. Land raiders still have their old problems. They are squishy for points, have less fire output than a single leman russ, and a knight is more useful. Terminators don't need one for transportation. Terminators are bad. There is nothing to put in them. The points changes don't make them any less unnecessary.

Librarian/voldus. The point changes are irrelevant. Look, you can only cast 6 spells. Two of them are useless. These guys get bad smites. Why would you let one caster steal the spells from the rest of your army? You can use those spells just fine without them. They are actually hurting your army by being brought. They are only worth their stats and nothing else, their rules are useless tax.

Paladin Ancient. 42 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also, they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.

Paladin squad. 6 point drop. They are worse custodians. Just use custodians. Their spells don't matter, because custodians get a 4+ and access to storm shields, so sanctuary is meh. Hammerhand wouldn't be needed if they had Custodian grade weapons. Our heavy weapons such, so that's not a factor. Custodians get pretty much +1 to every stat compared to these guys for a small price hike. Custodians are bad, and paladins are worse custodians. The price change doesn't fix this. For the price of a full unit of custodians, you could get a lot of strike squads with more shooting power and better damage output. They're a worse strike squad, and strike squads are overpriced.

Purifiers. 7 point drop. This doesn't matter. they're still not cheaper than strike squads, which are better.

Razorbacks got their price changed, but are still 5 points more than they were in the codex. Razorbacks are still nerfed for grey knights. We cannot effectively reroll wounds in shooting. Razorbacks aren't useful for transporting our boys due to Deep strike or shunt or gate being used to move our units. We cannot make a gunline for them effectively, because our tax troops cost too much. Our only good HQs will be deep striking in, thus, they cannot buff these backfield shooters. Also, if you did do a parking lot, you'd be worse marines because we lack as many tools for a good parking lot.

Servitors. 3 points more expensive. They're just bad and marines can use them better.

Stormraven. Still 20 points more expensive than it was in codex. It is still a good unit. It's still better in normal marines. We do not need it to transport things. One could argue that it is a worse grand master dreadknight. I certainly would.

Tech marine. 36 point drop. It doesn't suck. You can't spam them. You might bring one or two. It doesn't fix the army. This is a nice change, however. Keep in mind, he can't keep up with the grandmasters, so the only vehicle worth bringing in the army he doesn't synergize with.

Terminators. 7 point drop. Oh boy, here we are. They're still bad. They are still almost double a strike squad member. Strike squad members have more shooting and don't get wrecked by multi damage. Strike squads are overpriced still. They also fill out troop tax for less. for the cost of 1 unit of terminators, you could have 2 strike squads filling out 2 troop requirements, and also, because of squad leaders, you'd be up 1 attack. Here is the big kicker though: Double swords double the attacks on strike squads, while it makes terminators go up by only 50% effectiveness. Double swords are the best melee weapon we have vs all almost all targets. 10 strike squad dudes with double swords is 20 str 4 ap -2 d3 dmg. With terminators, it's only 15.

Venerable dreadnaught. 25 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Multiples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first.

Brother captain stern. 52 point drop. He still has bad rules and is a worse brother captain. He also takes up a slot that could house a grandmaster dreadknight.

Castellan Crowe. 52 point drop. He is useless. He does nothing. Do not pay for him.

Draigo. 60 point drop. He's pretty good. Especially if he's making those two Grandmaster Dreadknights reroll everything to hit. He also is good in close combat. He has a 3++! The point changes make him viable! yay! Give GW a big hand for making a bad grey knight unit good. This is the first proof that GW can actually do it.

Wargear changes. I will be ignoring the space marine only ones because that doesn't help most of our units but does buff things that are worse grand master dreadknights.

Heavy incinerator 21 point drop. It might be worth taking now! Good to see the grand master dreadknight is worth it!

Heavy psycannon. 6 point drop. buff the grand master's baby walker. He needs it.

Incinerator, 5 points for infantry, 7 points down for terminators. This weapon sucks because it will never be used in the game. It's a wasted 7/5 points still when a storm bolter only costs 2 and can be used after deep strike. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.

Psilencer terminator, 2 points drops. The psilencer is better because it has more str 4 shots than a storm bolter per points (sometimes) and more damage. On a terminator, it is 8 points instead of 4. It is now(or rather still) a worse storm bolter.

Psycannon 3 points drop, 9 on terminators. They're still a worse auto cannon. It might be worth it to run them now on purgation squads. This is nice, this is the only change that changes how grey knights play in a healthy way. It is not, however, enough to save the army. Purgation squads still can't hit your army in deployment because the range on these things is only 24. you might still see these sprinkled in strike squads, but eh... we'll see. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.

Closing reasons why the above is sound reasoning. This also is the TLDR

As you saw above, I keep referencing the grand master Dreadknight. It is a good unit. It is better than all of our HQs, save Draigo. You will always run them. They are so good, they force everything else in the HQ slot to compete with them, and they lose. This unit is so powerful it dominates the codex, and forces everything else to bow before it. You will only have less than 7 HQ slots, and these guys and Draigo are needed in order to make your army pretend to work. They also make almost all vehicles seem lackluster compared to them. Boom, half the units are just worse Grandmaster dreadknights.

Strike teams also have the same problem. All non characters or vehicles units are worse strike squads. Strike squads also are overpriced. They needed a price drop too. So everything else by extension is still grossly over priced because they're a worse version of a bad unit.

Essentially, all the price drops were on things that are either outclassed, upgrades on things not viable, or had such drastic rules problems that they would be useless unless they were game-breakingly cheap. The few things that did get helped, either made the army more reliant on its crutch unit, or were on characters that aren't spammed, and thus don't really give us too many extra points extra. This is how you make so many price drops pointless. You buff things that cannot be taken, and everything else you buff doesn't get better than the units already dominating the codex (save grand master dreadknights).

Other armies got their list of viable units blown up and helped. I am having a hell of a time making my space marine army better and thinking up fun things to do with the new points drops. My tau feel a lot better with the changes, and I can finally use a lot of my older models. My mobile guard/scions list is now a lot more viable. My grey knights are now only useful as 2 dreadknights GMs and draigo for my guard because every dreadknight after the 2nd gives diminishing returns, and every unit after the 4th gives diminishing returns, and every HQ is bad compared to the stats per point on a baby carrier grandmaster, and all our infantry suck.

Thank you for for the write up, you should send this to gw also on the slim chance it reaches anyone who cares there.

I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.

chnmmr wrote:
I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.

Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.

They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.

 Jaxler wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.

Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.

They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.

Yes but for an army with only a nerfed deep strike for manoeuvrability, 12 inch ignore terrain can’t be ignored.

chnmmr wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.

Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.

They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.

Yes but for an army with only a nerfed deep strike for manoeuvrability, 12 inch ignore terrain can’t be ignored.

Good luck keeping them alive is all I'm saying. Also, consider this:

They're worse grand master Dreadknights. Strike squads are needed as they fill out troop choices, so they've one thing over Grand master Dreadknights. 10 interceptors are worse than a GM dreadknight for the cost.

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
I blame Matt Ward who made GK so overpowered

Yup, blame the guy who actually made the only balanced and fun GK book

I have no idea why this dumb 4chan hate myth is still alive, I played both as GK and against GK vs SM, the very first 5th edition book, and it was never an uphill fight for either side and either player could win provided the list wasn't terrible. Unless you refused to adapt, you could have won against GK with pretty much any 5th edition army, they had a lot of strength in their own niche but a lot of glaring weaknesses too to balance them (such as even lower number count and durability than today). Pretty much the only people I have seen complaining against GK were bad players trying to repeat strategies that worked against weak 3rd edition Daemonhunters book then whining that didn't worked (or people who think flyers were introduced in 5th and conflate early 6th edition flyer spam with Ward, something he wasn't responsible for in any way whatsoever...).

People really need to stop repeating this nonsense, especially after GK books in three editions in a row proved how good job Ward did compared to his successors...

 Jaxler wrote:

chnmmr wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

chnmmr wrote:
I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.

Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.

They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.

Yes but for an army with only a nerfed deep strike for manoeuvrability, 12 inch ignore terrain can’t be ignored.

Good luck keeping them alive is all I'm saying. Also, consider this:

They're worse grand master Dreadknights. Strike squads are needed as they fill out troop choices, so they've one thing over Grand master Dreadknights. 10 interceptors are worse than a GM dreadknight for the cost.

Let me repeat, of the INFANTRY, I think Interceptors are the best in utility and strikes beat them only because they are troops. I’m not talking about GMNDK. And any weakness Interceptors have, so do strikes, but at least Interceptors are more manoeuvrable. Do I think they are good? Not really, too expensive. But that can be said about everything GK. I think the choice between strikes and interceptors is the only choice GKs get to make. Never take termites over paladins. Never take NDK over GMNDK, never take pity/purifier over strike. But interceptors and strikes? There is a decision to be made between the two.

As someone who defended Grey Knights during 5th edition, they were blatantly overpowered compared to everyone else. Internal balance was really spot-on, but externally? Oh dear...

All I'm reading is
"Grey Knights suck because they're entire army is worse GRAND MASTER DEADKNIGHTS!!!!!!!!111111!!!×==÷!!!!!!!!!!"

Hard to really take the complaints of Grey Knights players seriously isn't it?...

Emulgator wrote:
ah I see we went from the wait for the next "insert CA/FAQ whatever here" to the good old "youre just not playing your army correctly" again

The thing is very likely that none of these people has even tried to sit down and make a new list. They saw they didn't get what they expected and noped out mentally.

 Irbis wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
I blame Matt Ward who made GK so overpowered

Yup, blame the guy who actually made the only balanced and fun GK book

I have no idea why this dumb 4chan hate myth is still alive, I played both as GK and against GK vs SM, the very first 5th edition book, and it was never an uphill fight for either side and either player could win provided the list wasn't terrible. Unless you refused to adapt, you could have won against GK with pretty much any 5th edition army, they had a lot of strength in their own niche but a lot of glaring weaknesses too to balance them (such as even lower number count and durability than today). Pretty much the only people I have seen complaining against GK were bad players trying to repeat strategies that worked against weak 3rd edition Daemonhunters book then whining that didn't worked (or people who think flyers were introduced in 5th and conflate early 6th edition flyer spam with Ward, something he wasn't responsible for in any way whatsoever...).

People really need to stop repeating this nonsense, especially after GK books in three editions in a row proved how good job Ward did compared to his successors...

Matt Ward also has the distinction of writing LOTR Skirmish, which is among the best games GW has ever made for striking a solid balance between factions. It's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good when you look at 40k, Fantasy, and Kill Team. Dude gets too much flak for poor fluff when his rules make putting up with said absurd fluff justified.

ValentineGames wrote:
All I'm reading is
"Grey Knights suck because they're entire army is worse GRAND MASTER DEADKNIGHTS!!!!!!!!111111!!!×==÷!!!!!!!!!!"

Hard to really take the complaints of Grey Knights players seriously isn't it?...

I gave a decent breakdown as to why strike squads make all other infantry irrelevant besides interceptors and even strike squads and interceptors are overpriced, but you can just ignore that instead of actually looking at the information I presented.

Assuming the HQ slot isn't bad, and that they are all balanced VS the GMDK you still run into the problem where all other HQs are force multipliers but have nothing worth their points to support. I admit that ancients, apothecaries and tech marines are in a good spot, but again they have the problem of supporting bad units that are still bad.

This thread is funny.

"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."

Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.

You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Emulgator wrote:
ah I see we went from the wait for the next "insert CA/FAQ whatever here" to the good old "youre just not playing your army correctly" again

The thing is very likely that none of these people has even tried to sit down and make a new list. They saw they didn't get what they expected and noped out mentally.

I actually went through every individual point raise and realized that they fail to do enough to shake up the internal balance, and buff things that are either outclassed or unplayable. they did not change the balence enough for strike squads/interceptors and GMDKs to be the best options universally. Because the buffs didn't do enough to make the bad options in the list compete with the mediocre ones in the list, I have concluded that the army list is still bad, because the overall strength of the army thus hasn't been raised. The army already sucked as codex strikes and GMDK, it is still codex GMDK and strikes.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This thread is funny.

"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."

Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.

You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"

You act like options 3 can't be "Actually make them pay appropriately for those force weapon's when they're only 1 attack each" or even better "Give them an extra attack base"

Grey knights don't suck because they pay for force weapons, they suck because they pay for force weapons when they can barely use them at 1 attack base, and because they pay for being wizards that suck at spells, and because they pay for deepstrike that only half the army can use. They also pay for those force weapons even if they trade them out for heavy weapons, which means they should never take heavy weapons. See, those force weapons have their cost built into the model, so when I trade them out for a psycannon, I'm paying the cost of the now non-existant weapon, and the cost of the heavy one.

ValentineGames wrote:
All I'm reading is
"Grey Knights suck because they're entire army is worse GRAND MASTER DEADKNIGHTS!!!!!!!!111111!!!×==÷!!!!!!!!!!"

Hard to really take the complaints of Grey Knights players seriously isn't it?...

You made the exact point that you're missing. Because of how similar the roles/performance of the units are in GK, everything can be effectively measured on the same cline, with only the top performer remaining relevant. Strike squads are the sole exception due to higher CP generation and ObSec. I used to play them in 7th but instantly realised their trash status in 8th when I saw their converted weapon profiles and nerfed psychics.

A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.

This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.

The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.

Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This thread is funny.

"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."

Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.

You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"

The issue here is that the cost of the force weapons is built into the cost of the base model, instead of paid for separately.

 Jaxler wrote:

You act like options 3 can't be "Actually make them pay appropriately for those force weapon's when they're only 1 attack each" or even better "Give them an extra attack base"

Grey knights don't suck because they pay for force weapons, they suck because they pay for force weapons when they can barely use them at 1 attack base, and because they pay for being wizards that suck at spells, and because they pay for deepstrike that only half the army can use. They also pay for those force weapons you were talking about even if they trade them out for heavy weapons, which means they should never take heavy weapons, because the heavy weapon costs it's base cost plus the cost of the force weapon that's built into the model's cost.

1 attack base isn't "can barely use force weapons". 1 force weapon attack is pretty scary, esp. hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's. Your entire squad has -3 rend d3 damage weapons, and does indeed have 2 attacks with the Falchions.

The wizards that suck at spells thing is unfortunate. Do you think they pay more than 1 ppm?

The heavy weapon issue is dumb, I grant you that. I would price GK the following:

13 pt tac Marine, +2 storm bolter, +6 force weapon, +1 Psy power (shouldn't be free). Everything else is an army rule (e.g. deepstrike, Aegis of the Emperor, etc).

So about 22 pts. 21 if we can say that "is a psyker" is an army ability, which I suppose is reasonable. What are they actually at ATM?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This thread is funny.

"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."

Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.

You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"

The issue here is that the cost of the force weapons is built into the cost of the base model, instead of paid for separately.

Yes. This is a transgression. Make GK tac Marines with mandatory force weapons and storm bolters, but cost the latter pair separately. would that fix the army overnight?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.

This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.

The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.

Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.

The storm raven is a worse GMDK. The dreads are worse GMDKs. The purifiers would be better off as strikes or interceptors who dont need the taxi, so you can spend the points of said taxi on more GMDK.

You have GMDKs, so you can invest the points you blew on the tech marine on the GMDKs.

Also purifiers getting off that single D6 smite on turn two after forcing you to buy a taxi, and then getting close enough to do it, is a horrible investment. Remember, d6 is on average 1 wound more than d3, so essentially you get 3 smites off from that 577 point investment, from a unit that doesn't fill troop slots or move in turn one. The storm raven is good, but honestly you'd be better off filling it with vanguards and playing blood Angels.

Also purifiers have a 3 inch d6 smite. Not 6 inch.

One rumor was that GK get normal smite.
Another says that it will not be the case.
Normal smite would definitely be an improvement.

Jaxler, that is a good write up, and highlights many of the issues of GK. With that being said, all of you basically set yourselves up for failure with this CA as points changes are not going to fix the army (which I stated in most of my posts).
Let's look at that strike marine..

he's a marine, so that's 13pts....indisputable, we all pay that. That cost did not change for any of of us (but hey, I play Deathwatch, my dude is a vet and got 2 pts cheaper, lolz...I didn't understand that at all)
he has a stormbolter, so +2pts
you have a power weapon that does D3 damage. If you look at Librarians, force weapons are always twice the cost of a basic power weapon. You are not a character though, so let's cut that in half. That's still 2 points for the power weapon and 2pts for the D3 damage.
you have psychic attack AND defence (amazes me how GKs never address their infinite denies). Yeah, most of the psychics aren't great, but guess what, that's pretty much universal on most Astartes armies. However, with the above points, you are only paying 2pts per marine for it. So in a 5 man squad, that's 10pts to have a psychic power and deny. Maybe this should be just +1pt, since a dread only pays 5pts to be a psyker. But is strikes dropped to 20pts each, I'm pretty sure we would still be at the same place.

Seriously, how can you expect points to change this? Maybe, you subtract the psychic cost as that basically is your Chapter tactic.

60% of the units took around a 20-30% discount, so that is significant. It probably just doesn't solve the problem. However, nobody has really looked at it yet.

GKs should be vets, period. +1 attack on their basic PA marines. You can't up terminators as all other terminators are only 2 attacks (that's my Deathwing knights, Deathwatch terms etc). I guess GW disagrees with this position.

Let's talk about the psycannon. It's now 7pts. But let's say it's actually 11pts because you lose the force weapon to get it, so that has to be pointed in (which I feel it is in all those weapons, you didn't lose the force weapon points, it's costed in the weapon that replaces it). It's 50% cheaper than an assault cannon, has the same range, +1 S, same AP, and same damage. It has 2 less shots. Please don't tell me that's not a good points value, not when directly compared to an assault cannon which I have never heard anyone say sucks.

GKs are a power armoured marine army, and those just aren't doing well anywhere. I think Deathwatch right now are looking pretty good because some of the points adjustments directly affect them. We now pay 18pts for a vet marine with a stormbolter, 20pts if you now give it a stormshield. With SIA, that's some insane stuff right there. Grey Knights cannot match that, no inherent invuln in their units, basic SBs (which aren't bad this edition, but DW take them to level 11). DW also have a good Chapter tactic, GKs don't.

Bottom line, points doesn't save this army. However, they did get significantly cheaper, and finding out how o maximize that gain is up to the player.

As for the GMDK, I've seen many reports where they are taking just one. This myth of "all you see is 3 GMDKs" is just that, a myth.

@Jaxler, in a later post above, you're comparing everything to a GMDK. That's a bit silly. At 145pts, you can get twin las, ML ven dreads to do some serious work.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

You act like options 3 can't be "Actually make them pay appropriately for those force weapon's when they're only 1 attack each" or even better "Give them an extra attack base"

Grey knights don't suck because they pay for force weapons, they suck because they pay for force weapons when they can barely use them at 1 attack base, and because they pay for being wizards that suck at spells, and because they pay for deepstrike that only half the army can use. They also pay for those force weapons you were talking about even if they trade them out for heavy weapons, which means they should never take heavy weapons, because the heavy weapon costs it's base cost plus the cost of the force weapon that's built into the model's cost.

1 attack base isn't "can barely use force weapons". 1 force weapon attack is pretty scary, esp. hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's. Your entire squad has -3 rend d3 damage weapons, and does indeed have 2 attacks with the Falchions.

The wizards that suck at spells thing is unfortunate. Do you think they pay more than 1 ppm?

The heavy weapon issue is dumb, I grant you that. I would price GK the following:

13 pt tac Marine, +2 storm bolter, +6 force weapon, +1 Psy power (shouldn't be free). Everything else is an army rule (e.g. deepstrike, Aegis of the Emperor, etc).

So about 22 pts. 21 if we can say that "is a psyker" is an army ability, which I suppose is reasonable. What are they actually at ATM?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This thread is funny.

"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."

Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.

You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"

The issue here is that the cost of the force weapons is built into the cost of the base model, instead of paid for separately.

Yes. This is a transgression. Make GK tac Marines with mandatory force weapons and storm bolters, but cost the latter pair separately. would that fix the army overnight?

Strike squads are 21 points...

They wound on 4s usually, not threes with those weapons. 105 points for on average. They suck at killing small stuff because the de is wasted. They suck at big things because low str or low ap.

5 strike squad members with double swords attacking a MEQ kill on average kill 2 MEQ. That's 2 whole tac marines. Enjoy those 26 points back after 2-3 turns of set up. Assuming each force weapon cost 6 points, you have lost points assuming you dont get another round of combat, which you wont.

Next, you will on average kill 1 terminator in cc

You will kill 4 guardsmen on average on average.

You will kill 1 primaris.

I dont consider this scary cc like you imply. In fact I would call it middling. They also cannot use those psy powers.




Also bully boy, before people stopped using grey knights at all at tournies, people were running 3 dread knights with guard. When I play the army, that's basically all I run plus some strike squads I inevitably regret bringing when they just never trade up.


Also those dreads would look a lot better sitting next to Bobby G of the ultra Smurfs. They are always going to be better in a space marine list. This doesn't mean they are bad in a grey knight list, but they are being held back by the army. You could maybe do a motorcade/Walker army backed up by draigo, but I promise you that you would just be a worse ultra marines,with less CP.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.

This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.

The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.

Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.

The storm raven is a worse GMDK. The dreads are worse GMDKs. The purifiers would be better off as strikes or interceptors who dont need the taxi, so you can spend the points of said taxi on more GMDK.

You have GMDKs, so you can invest the points you blew on the tech marine on the GMDKs.

Also purifiers getting off that single D6 smite on turn two after forcing you to buy a taxi, and then getting close enough to do it, is a horrible investment. Remember, d6 is on average 1 wound more than d3, so essentially you get 3 smites off from that 577 point investment, from a unit that doesn't fill troop slots or move in turn one. The storm raven is good, but honestly you'd be better off filling it with vanguards and playing blood Angels.

Also purifiers have a 3 inch d6 smite. Not 6 inch.

Brother Captain makes their smite 6". D6 is swingy, but has a really high potential.

I think you need to stop thinking about GMDKs for a bit. It comes in at 259 with teleporter, fists, psilencer, and psycannon. I can fit two ven dreads in who have a higher toughness, a higher total number (16 vs 12) of non-degarding wounds, a 6+++ instead of a 4++ (which is still useful), and longer range. They have 4 S8 AP3 D2 over 6 S7 AP1 D2 and 2 ML shots 12 S4 AP0 D3 on the same BS. They don't have a 2+, but that's more than made up in wounds and toughness. There is also an option for smoke launchers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.

This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.

The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.

Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.

The storm raven is a worse GMDK. The dreads are worse GMDKs. The purifiers would be better off as strikes or interceptors who dont need the taxi, so you can spend the points of said taxi on more GMDK.

You have GMDKs, so you can invest the points you blew on the tech marine on the GMDKs.

Also purifiers getting off that single D6 smite on turn two after forcing you to buy a taxi, and then getting close enough to do it, is a horrible investment. Remember, d6 is on average 1 wound more than d3, so essentially you get 3 smites off from that 577 point investment, from a unit that doesn't fill troop slots or move in turn one. The storm raven is good, but honestly you'd be better off filling it with vanguards and playing blood Angels.

Also purifiers have a 3 inch d6 smite. Not 6 inch.

Brother Captain makes their smite 6". D6 is swingy, but has a really high potential.

I think you need to stop thinking about GMDKs for a bit. It comes in at 259 with teleporter, fists, psilencer, and psycannon. I can fit two ven dreads in who have a higher toughness, a higher total number (16 vs 12) of non-degarding wounds, a 6+++ instead of a 4++ (which is still useful), and longer range. They have 4 S8 AP3 D2 over 6 S7 AP1 D2 and 2 ML shots 12 S4 AP0 D3 on the same BS. They don't have a 2+, but that's more than made up in wounds and toughness. There is also an option for smoke launchers.

Those grand masters reroll 1s, and you can get two of them 3++

Now you are paying for a bad character to buff your bad units when you could of just gotten more interceptors/strikes who get there for cheaper, get there faster and more reliably, and arent wasted if the taxi pops too early.


And that taxi will pop. Only an idiot doesn't kill your flyer turn one and ruin your 600 point investment and make 1/3 of your list irrelevant.

Really? my Deathwatch list has 2 of them...no Bobby G. I'm also considering adding a 3rd, now they are 25pts cheaper than before. I'm really liking the ven dread now.

Your Chapter Tactic isn't all that bad actually, especially since the cost to cast Smite is always the same (unlike other armies). Knocking mortal wounds is crazy, no matter how few you get. 33% of the time, a normal smite will do the same damage (btw, GK Libbys should get normal Smite, that IS silly). If the complaint is that it does't do anything vs screens and chaff, well, neither does anyone's smite. Luckily you have stormbolters for that.

If you are plinking off 2, 3 or even 4 mortal wounds of something that you're now going to hit with your heavy hitters, that can make the difference between a dead model, and one left on 1 or 2 wounds.

edit: Like all marine lists, it's probably better to bulk out the army with some cheap chaff. Call them inquisitorial troops or whatever. I held off for my Deathwatch because I wanted to see how GW addressed soup. Well, I guess they didn't so now I'm going to hop on the Guard assist wagon.

 Jaxler wrote:


Strike squads are 21 points...

They wound on 4s usually, not threes with those weapons. 105 points for on average. They suck at killing small stuff because the de is wasted. They suck at big things because low str or low ap.

5 strike squad members with double swords attacking a MEQ kill on average kill 2 MEQ. That's 2 whole tac marines. Enjoy those 26 points back after 2-3 turns of set up. Assuming each force weapon cost 6 points, you have lost points assuming you dont get another round of combat, which you wont.

Next, you will on average kill 1 terminator in cc

You will kill 4 guardsmen on average on average.

You will kill 1 primaris.

Your math is a little off.

Assuming falchions --

11 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 2.4 marines, which with force swords is also 2.4 primaris (force weapons matter)

4.9 IG
3.7 wounds to terminators so almost 2 (again - force weapons matter)

Storm bolters --

20 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 2.2 marines and 1 primaris
5.9 IG

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:


Strike squads are 21 points...

They wound on 4s usually, not threes with those weapons. 105 points for on average. They suck at killing small stuff because the de is wasted. They suck at big things because low str or low ap.

5 strike squad members with double swords attacking a MEQ kill on average kill 2 MEQ. That's 2 whole tac marines. Enjoy those 26 points back after 2-3 turns of set up. Assuming each force weapon cost 6 points, you have lost points assuming you dont get another round of combat, which you wont.

Next, you will on average kill 1 terminator in cc

You will kill 4 guardsmen on average on average.

You will kill 1 primaris.

Your math is a little off.

Assuming falchions --

11 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 2.4 marines, which with force swords is also 2.4 primaris (force weapons matter)

4.9 IG
3.7 wounds to terminators so almost 2 (again - force weapons matter)

Storm bolters --

20 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 2.2 marines and 1 primaris
5.9 IG

I shouldn't be doing math this late, but thank you for catching that. Still, those numbers arent super impressive.

OK, I'm probably going to go on lurk mode for this thread for now, unless a question is directed at me.
GKs are still probably not great, but they did get what GW stated...significant points drops. That should not be denied. Maybe someone will go back and re-look at their army and make modifications, maybe not. Not my problem. I still have a few GK units in boxes I acquired from a buddy. I'll get round to them, they are just far down the line of my current projects.

Good luck gentlemen (and thanks for keeping the discussion civil, that's a nice change here on dakka)