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How long has spike tax been around now? 15....20 years? Why are you chaos players not used to it yet. Anyway, like I said above. There is a very good reason for it....im sure.
Table wrote: How long has spike tax been around now? 15....20 years? Why are you chaos players not used to it yet. Anyway, like I said above. There is a very good reason for it....im sure.
Ever after 3.5. And I guess 3.0 because that was trash. 2nd was alright from my recollection.
Valkyrie wrote: Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?
If its not then it would have been fine for guard wouldn;t it?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
ChazSexington wrote: While I agree Cultists should be 5pt, Guardsmen should be 5pt as well. Cultists should also lose access to VotLW, while CSMs/SMs (the units) should be dropped to 11 or 12pt.
Secondly, Heretic Astartes can't be removed as a Keyword, because it's their Faction Keyword and us CSM player would never be able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists.
I believe Cultists also get <LEGION> which I'm pretty sure can also count as a keyword for Battleforged.
Or they get the Grot treatment.
Doesn't benefit from tactics and only stratagems that call out CULTISTS can be used.
ChazSexington wrote: While I agree Cultists should be 5pt, Guardsmen should be 5pt as well. Cultists should also lose access to VotLW, while CSMs/SMs (the units) should be dropped to 11 or 12pt.
Secondly, Heretic Astartes can't be removed as a Keyword, because it's their Faction Keyword and us CSM player would never be able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists.
I believe Cultists also get <LEGION> which I'm pretty sure can also count as a keyword for Battleforged.
Or they get the Grot treatment.
Doesn't benefit from tactics and only stratagems that call out CULTISTS can be used.
Now THAT might be a good alternative solution. Did not know that's how Grots worked. I like it.
GW analyzes the game by looking at problematic lists and stomping them.
Cultist spam was a problematic list? Yes, let's nerf it.
Guard spam is a problematic list? No, leave it as it is.
The only good thing here are the veterans at 5 points, together with the reduced cost of chimeras we could finally see mechanised guards again. Let's be honest, if the 4/5/6 paradigma were to pass, conscripts and guards would be fine, but no one would use veterans.
The problem with this kind of reasoning is that GW continues to look at units individually while continuing to produce a game that has so much overlap between codexes and encourages combos via stratagems, chapter tactics, etc. It's impossible to value a unit properly when a unit is meh with 5 out of 6 choices but the 6th makes them way to much.
Seems to me the opposite is taking place. If giant Cultist blobs are showing up in tournaments, that's the result of players making the calculation of its value in the context of all the relevant buffs, stratagems, chapter tactics, etc. So GW nerfs it.
What we see CONSTANTLY online, is people taking unit x in isolation, vs. unit y in isolation, doing some math and calling it "proof" that unit x or y is unbalanced. GW is making the smarter call here, imo.
The issue isn't Cultists being 5ppm. At 5ppm they are still worth taking, especially with all the potential buffs they can get.
The issue (or rather the 2 issues) with Cultists being 5ppm is: A) GW already confirm that this was specifically done to limit spamming Cultists. Without lowering the cost of Chaos Marines, however, this will not have the outcome GW intended. B) Guard Infantry units are outright better than Cultists, yet remain 4ppm. Debate potential buffs to either unit all you want, but the fact remains that both units can get buffs from various means and Guard IS should at least be the same cost, but certainly not cheaper. This is just added salt in the wound of issue A.
If Chaos Marines got a decrease even to 12ppm (although 11ppm is ideally where they should be) and Guard IS got bumped to 5ppm, than Cultists at 5ppm is not an issue. Heck, Guard Vets are fine at 5ppm too, because they pay more for weapons already due to having BS3+. I see no reason Vets and IS couldn't both be 5ppm.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 18:12:15
I admire GWs consistency. They have managed to find something in the CSM codex to nerf with every single game update they have made since the release of 8th edition.
I am excited to see what they nerf next, I'm not sure there's a lot left in the codex to nerf, but GW has proven that if it's there and it's useful, they'll find it and crush it.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Galef wrote: The issue isn't Cultists being 5ppm. At 5ppm they are still worth taking, especially with all the potential buffs they can get.
The issue (or rather the 2 issues) with Cultists being 5ppm is:
A) GW already confirm that this was specifically done to limit spamming Cultists. Without lowering the cost of Chaos Marines, however, this will not have the outcome GW intended.
B) Guard Infantry units are outright better than Cultists, yet remain 4ppm. Debate potential buffs to either unit all you want, but the fact remains that both units can get buffs from various means and Guard IS should at least be the same cost, but certainly not cheaper. This is just added salt in the wound of issue A.
If Chaos Marines got a decrease even to 12ppm (although 11ppm is ideally where they should be) and Guard IS got bumped to 5ppm, than Cultists at 5ppm is not an issue.
Heck, Guard Vets are fine at 5ppm too, because they pay more for weapons already due to having BS3+. I see no reason Vets and IS couldn't both be 5ppm.
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GW isnt balancing laterally. 4 pom guardsmen dont matter in the cultist situation.
Sir Heckington wrote: I see the strats and traits arguments but R&H cultists got the same treatment.
because feth R&H i guess.
Same with Ig veterans, they are now 5 ppm, have more special and heavy weapons options whilest disciples (R&H veteran equivalent) still costs 6 ppm, has less option per squad (1 special 1 hwt) random LS aswell as no traits.
Sidenote, even the malefic at 80pts since ca 17 remains unchanged. Meanwhile IG psykers are still only 40 pts, for the same profil and better psy powers.
But that they are that delusional and let csm stay 13 pts whilest loyalist tacs go down, even if they are virtually exchangeable i won't ever understand.
You mind explaining what price cut that Tactical Squads got as the main complaining in the marine threads is that primaris units got points cuts while tacs got nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: The issue isn't Cultists being 5ppm. At 5ppm they are still worth taking, especially with all the potential buffs they can get.
The issue (or rather the 2 issues) with Cultists being 5ppm is:
A) GW already confirm that this was specifically done to limit spamming Cultists. Without lowering the cost of Chaos Marines, however, this will not have the outcome GW intended.
B) Guard Infantry units are outright better than Cultists, yet remain 4ppm. Debate potential buffs to either unit all you want, but the fact remains that both units can get buffs from various means and Guard IS should at least be the same cost, but certainly not cheaper. This is just added salt in the wound of issue A.
If Chaos Marines got a decrease even to 12ppm (although 11ppm is ideally where they should be) and Guard IS got bumped to 5ppm, than Cultists at 5ppm is not an issue.
Heck, Guard Vets are fine at 5ppm too, because they pay more for weapons already due to having BS3+. I see no reason Vets and IS couldn't both be 5ppm.
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As long as Cultists are the least trash troops choice choas have, they will still be in every choas tournament list.
They are the choas codex's version of scouts, you don't take them because they are good it's just the cheapest way to pay the troopa tax.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 18:38:30
1 - Kill 23 Cultists and the last die to Battleshock unless the Chaos player uses 2 CP, barring Abaddon and Iron Warrior Warlords.
2. Absolutely baller Stratagem that Cultists in no way should be able to use as they're not Veterans of the Long War.
3. Cultists can do it once.
4. That's the Alpha Legion only.
5. 3 CPs, something that Chaos doesn't have that much access due to zero CP regen.
6. Sure, but also requires 3 CPs per turn, which CSMs can't sustain.
7. See 1.
1. So still a massively good ability and can be fearless/ come back and cn be made harder to kill with -1 hit
2. Yup amazing strategem that they still have
3. Yup they can do it once guard can do it 0 times
4. Yup its alpha legion only and guard cant be alpha legion soooooo...
5. 3cp for an amazing ability when you need it
6.once again 3cp for an amazing ability
7. see 1
I Mean your list kinda just proves what i said on all of mine
As I learn't with my Orks, a 1pts increase was about 100+ points added to my army. In general I didn't actually lose any points and my army went up a little. XD
1 - Kill 23 Cultists and the last die to Battleshock unless the Chaos player uses 2 CP, barring Abaddon and Iron Warrior Warlords.
2. Absolutely baller Stratagem that Cultists in no way should be able to use as they're not Veterans of the Long War.
3. Cultists can do it once.
4. That's the Alpha Legion only.
5. 3 CPs, something that Chaos doesn't have that much access due to zero CP regen.
6. Sure, but also requires 3 CPs per turn, which CSMs can't sustain.
7. See 1.
1. So still a massively good ability and can be fearless/ come back and cn be made harder to kill with -1 hit
2. Yup amazing strategem that they still have
3. Yup they can do it once guard can do it 0 times
4. Yup its alpha legion only and guard cant be alpha legion soooooo...
5. 3cp for an amazing ability when you need it
6.once again 3cp for an amazing ability
7. see 1
I Mean your list kinda just proves what i said on all of mine
Soup player can easily hold out long enough for the chaos player to run out of CP. You can have a command point ability that says "Play this and win the game" but it's useless if it's 1000cp and you only have 8.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 18:58:08
Galef wrote: The issue isn't Cultists being 5ppm. At 5ppm they are still worth taking, especially with all the potential buffs they can get.
The issue (or rather the 2 issues) with Cultists being 5ppm is: A) GW already confirm that this was specifically done to limit spamming Cultists. Without lowering the cost of Chaos Marines, however, this will not have the outcome GW intended. B) Guard Infantry units are outright better than Cultists, yet remain 4ppm. Debate potential buffs to either unit all you want, but the fact remains that both units can get buffs from various means and Guard IS should at least be the same cost, but certainly not cheaper. This is just added salt in the wound of issue A.
If Chaos Marines got a decrease even to 12ppm (although 11ppm is ideally where they should be) and Guard IS got bumped to 5ppm, than Cultists at 5ppm is not an issue. Heck, Guard Vets are fine at 5ppm too, because they pay more for weapons already due to having BS3+. I see no reason Vets and IS couldn't both be 5ppm.
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GW isnt balancing laterally. 4 pom guardsmen dont matter in the cultist situation.
That's fine. It just means my point B is just added salt, even if not intentional from GW. But my point A stands. GW bumped Cultists up so that they wouldn't keep showing up as the only CSM Troop, but then didn't lower the cost of Chaos Marines. Cultists could be 6-7ppm and that wouldn't make a lick of difference in making Chaos Marines more playable. So as far as I'm concerned, this is strike 2 for GW. Strike 1 was claiming "soup was off the table"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 19:02:28
Sir Heckington wrote: I see the strats and traits arguments but R&H cultists got the same treatment.
because feth R&H i guess.
Same with Ig veterans, they are now 5 ppm, have more special and heavy weapons options whilest disciples (R&H veteran equivalent) still costs 6 ppm, has less option per squad (1 special 1 hwt) random LS aswell as no traits.
Sidenote, even the malefic at 80pts since ca 17 remains unchanged. Meanwhile IG psykers are still only 40 pts, for the same profil and better psy powers.
But that they are that delusional and let csm stay 13 pts whilest loyalist tacs go down, even if they are virtually exchangeable i won't ever understand.
You mind explaining what price cut that Tactical Squads got as the main complaining in the marine threads is that primaris units got points cuts while tacs got nothing.
.
Sorry meant primaris. point still stands though, will edit it.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
GW analyzes the game by looking at problematic lists and stomping them.
Cultist spam was a problematic list? Yes, let's nerf it.
Guard spam is a problematic list? No, leave it as it is.
The only good thing here are the veterans at 5 points, together with the reduced cost of chimeras we could finally see mechanised guards again. Let's be honest, if the 4/5/6 paradigma were to pass, conscripts and guards would be fine, but no one would use veterans.
The problem with this kind of reasoning is that GW continues to look at units individually while continuing to produce a game that has so much overlap between codexes and encourages combos via stratagems, chapter tactics, etc. It's impossible to value a unit properly when a unit is meh with 5 out of 6 choices but the 6th makes them way to much.
Seems to me the opposite is taking place. If giant Cultist blobs are showing up in tournaments, that's the result of players making the calculation of its value in the context of all the relevant buffs, stratagems, chapter tactics, etc. So GW nerfs it.
What we see CONSTANTLY online, is people taking unit x in isolation, vs. unit y in isolation, doing some math and calling it "proof" that unit x or y is unbalanced. GW is making the smarter call here, imo.
If GW simply wants to reduce giant squads of cultists it should start with why are people not taking the other troop choices and make them better and then in that context see if cultists still need a tweak. What I meant though is due to a unit not getting a point decrease or increase depending on chapter tactics/ available stratagems.
This makes balancing it really difficult because unit A might be worth it's points with one CT but totally not worth it with three others and way to powerful with another. I can't see GW getting a unit's points right with there being so many variables to even mono army construction.
Sir Heckington wrote: I see the strats and traits arguments but R&H cultists got the same treatment.
because feth R&H i guess.
Same with Ig veterans, they are now 5 ppm, have more special and heavy weapons options whilest disciples (R&H veteran equivalent) still costs 6 ppm, has less option per squad (1 special 1 hwt) random LS aswell as no traits.
Sidenote, even the malefic at 80pts since ca 17 remains unchanged. Meanwhile IG psykers are still only 40 pts, for the same profil and better psy powers.
But that they are that delusional and let csm stay 13 pts whilest loyalist tacs go down, even if they are virtually exchangeable i won't ever understand.
You mind explaining what price cut that Tactical Squads got as the main complaining in the marine threads is that primaris units got points cuts while tacs got nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: The issue isn't Cultists being 5ppm. At 5ppm they are still worth taking, especially with all the potential buffs they can get.
The issue (or rather the 2 issues) with Cultists being 5ppm is:
A) GW already confirm that this was specifically done to limit spamming Cultists. Without lowering the cost of Chaos Marines, however, this will not have the outcome GW intended.
B) Guard Infantry units are outright better than Cultists, yet remain 4ppm. Debate potential buffs to either unit all you want, but the fact remains that both units can get buffs from various means and Guard IS should at least be the same cost, but certainly not cheaper. This is just added salt in the wound of issue A.
If Chaos Marines got a decrease even to 12ppm (although 11ppm is ideally where they should be) and Guard IS got bumped to 5ppm, than Cultists at 5ppm is not an issue.
Heck, Guard Vets are fine at 5ppm too, because they pay more for weapons already due to having BS3+. I see no reason Vets and IS couldn't both be 5ppm.
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As long as Cultists are the least trash troops choice choas have, they will still be in every choas tournament list.
They are the choas codex's version of scouts, you don't take them because they are good it's just the cheapest way to pay the troopa tax.
Tactical Marines didn't get a price cut but certain weapons did.
The issue there is several other units got price cuts. If you just run Scouts like usual, not only did your Vet units get price cuts but so did their weapons.
Vets pay only a point more for their new stats and considerably more flexible weapon loadouts. Having Objective Secured isn't enough of a benefit.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
If GW simply wants to reduce giant squads of cultists it should start with why are people not taking the other troop choices and make them better and then in that context see if cultists still need a tweak. What I meant though is due to a unit not getting a point decrease or increase depending on chapter tactics/ available stratagems.
This makes balancing it really difficult because unit A might be worth it's points with one CT but totally not worth it with three others and way to powerful with another. I can't see GW getting a unit's points right with there being so many variables to even mono army construction.
Which is kinda why I am starting to think Chapter tactic/Legion traits should be moved to Narrative/Open play only. You can still be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion for the keywords, strats and relics in Matched Play, but if you want that -1 to be hit, you have to play Narrative.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 19:28:08
Sir Heckington wrote: I see the strats and traits arguments but R&H cultists got the same treatment.
because feth R&H i guess.
Same with Ig veterans, they are now 5 ppm, have more special and heavy weapons options whilest disciples (R&H veteran equivalent) still costs 6 ppm, has less option per squad (1 special 1 hwt) random LS aswell as no traits.
Sidenote, even the malefic at 80pts since ca 17 remains unchanged. Meanwhile IG psykers are still only 40 pts, for the same profil and better psy powers.
But that they are that delusional and let csm stay 13 pts whilest loyalist tacs go down, even if they are virtually exchangeable i won't ever understand.
You mind explaining what price cut that Tactical Squads got as the main complaining in the marine threads is that primaris units got points cuts while tacs got nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: The issue isn't Cultists being 5ppm. At 5ppm they are still worth taking, especially with all the potential buffs they can get.
The issue (or rather the 2 issues) with Cultists being 5ppm is:
A) GW already confirm that this was specifically done to limit spamming Cultists. Without lowering the cost of Chaos Marines, however, this will not have the outcome GW intended.
B) Guard Infantry units are outright better than Cultists, yet remain 4ppm. Debate potential buffs to either unit all you want, but the fact remains that both units can get buffs from various means and Guard IS should at least be the same cost, but certainly not cheaper. This is just added salt in the wound of issue A.
If Chaos Marines got a decrease even to 12ppm (although 11ppm is ideally where they should be) and Guard IS got bumped to 5ppm, than Cultists at 5ppm is not an issue.
Heck, Guard Vets are fine at 5ppm too, because they pay more for weapons already due to having BS3+. I see no reason Vets and IS couldn't both be 5ppm.
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As long as Cultists are the least trash troops choice choas have, they will still be in every choas tournament list.
They are the choas codex's version of scouts, you don't take them because they are good it's just the cheapest way to pay the troopa tax.
Tactical Marines didn't get a price cut but certain weapons did.
The issue there is several other units got price cuts. If you just run Scouts like usual, not only did your Vet units get price cuts but so did their weapons.
Vets pay only a point more for their new stats and considerably more flexible weapon loadouts. Having Objective Secured isn't enough of a benefit.
I know some units got price cuts just thought I'd totally missed somethin in the leaks.
Really the only reason marine's even want to take troops is CP and thats done with more CP per point and more damage and durability per point by Infantry Squads, really it doesn't matter how much a tac or intercessors or Choas marine costs because they simply cannot compete with IG codex choices.
I really can't wait to see GW justify their actions of 5ppm cultist while Infantry Squads are better and cheaper.
I think nerfing forward operatives was probably enough to prevent the most egregious cultist spam T1 stuff cultists that are Deployment zone to deployment zone away remotely as feel bad as the double tap and charge everyone T1 alpha legion cultist spam. It's like CA is fixing issue with points that they fixed in FAQ2 with rules changes for choas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 19:41:52
Ice_can wrote: Really the only reason marine's even want to take troops is CP and thats done with more CP per point and more damage and durability per point by Infantry Squads, really it doesn't matter how much a tac or intercessors or Choas marine costs because they simply cannot compete with IG codex choices.
Easy solution: remove soup, or at least remove the ability to generate CP from detachments that don't share your warlord's faction. This solves the problem of marine players taking IGCP farms without nerfing pure IG armies.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Spoletta wrote: The only good thing here are the veterans at 5 points, together with the reduced cost of chimeras we could finally see mechanised guards again. Let's be honest, if the 4/5/6 paradigma were to pass, conscripts and guards would be fine, but no one would use veterans.
The rule of three effectively killed mechanized guard. Veterans aren't bad because they are 6ppm, they are bad because they are an elite slot and you can only take 3 of them (and scions are better in comparison).
IMO veterans should be troop choices, and scions should be elites. Scions should then be given a special rule that makes them considered troops in any detachment that is purely <militarum tempestus> excluding regimental advisers to keep all-scion lists possible.
Scions also should be 8ppm without deepstrike, with a rule that lets them take grav chutes for 1-2ppm more. It makes no sense to run them in dedicated transports when you are paying for their deepstrike ability as part of their cost, and then not using it.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 20:03:23
Galef wrote: Which is kinda why I am starting to think Chapter tactic/Legion traits should be moved to Narrative/Open play only.
You can still be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion for the keywords, strats and relics in Matched Play, but if you want that -1 to be hit, you have to play Narrative.
Rumor has it all the -1 to hit army traits are becoming +1 cover save under the same conditions, I guess we'll see if that's true when CA hits.
Obviously, +1 cover save is significantly less useful to cultists than -1 to hit.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Ice_can wrote: Really the only reason marine's even want to take troops is CP and thats done with more CP per point and more damage and durability per point by Infantry Squads, really it doesn't matter how much a tac or intercessors or Choas marine costs because they simply cannot compete with IG codex choices.
Easy solution: remove soup, or at least remove the ability to generate CP from detachments that don't share your warlord's faction. This solves the problem of marine players taking IGCP farms without nerfing pure IG armies.
Yeah because Marine lists with the 32 have been so meta right?
I'm amazed people can defend the Astra Millicheese codex, but hey you do you.
GW nerfed captain smash and what happend, as predicted 1.4k of guard plus a Castellan. "IG arn't the problem soup is, so if they nerf a castellen and its 1.6K of guard and a GMNK it's sure to be all the GK player's fault for allying in Guard for CP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 20:00:40
If GW simply wants to reduce giant squads of cultists it should start with why are people not taking the other troop choices and make them better and then in that context see if cultists still need a tweak. What I meant though is due to a unit not getting a point decrease or increase depending on chapter tactics/ available stratagems.
This makes balancing it really difficult because unit A might be worth it's points with one CT but totally not worth it with three others and way to powerful with another. I can't see GW getting a unit's points right with there being so many variables to even mono army construction.
You would not be able to make CSM cheap enough.
That's the power of force multipliers - cultists get everything x 40 for very few points.
If GW simply wants to reduce giant squads of cultists it should start with why are people not taking the other troop choices and make them better and then in that context see if cultists still need a tweak. What I meant though is due to a unit not getting a point decrease or increase depending on chapter tactics/ available stratagems.
This makes balancing it really difficult because unit A might be worth it's points with one CT but totally not worth it with three others and way to powerful with another. I can't see GW getting a unit's points right with there being so many variables to even mono army construction.
You would not be able to make CSM cheap enough.
That's the power of force multipliers - cultists get everything x 40 for very few points.
Well they already nerfed Tide Of Traitors, everyone knows that VotLW needs an adjustment, and...yeah that's about it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
If GW simply wants to reduce giant squads of cultists it should start with why are people not taking the other troop choices and make them better and then in that context see if cultists still need a tweak. What I meant though is due to a unit not getting a point decrease or increase depending on chapter tactics/ available stratagems.
This makes balancing it really difficult because unit A might be worth it's points with one CT but totally not worth it with three others and way to powerful with another. I can't see GW getting a unit's points right with there being so many variables to even mono army construction.
You would not be able to make CSM cheap enough.
That's the power of force multipliers - cultists get everything x 40 for very few points.
Agreed, marines of all stripes need better rules to make them worth taking. Im in favor of +1 wound on ALL marine models (including terminators) at zero point increase. At this point bolters just don't have the firepower to make marines viable. Even rubric bolters are underwhelming to be honest. So if the bolters remain at its current stats then they need to focus on making marines far more survivable.
If GW simply wants to reduce giant squads of cultists it should start with why are people not taking the other troop choices and make them better and then in that context see if cultists still need a tweak. What I meant though is due to a unit not getting a point decrease or increase depending on chapter tactics/ available stratagems.
This makes balancing it really difficult because unit A might be worth it's points with one CT but totally not worth it with three others and way to powerful with another. I can't see GW getting a unit's points right with there being so many variables to even mono army construction.
You would not be able to make CSM cheap enough.
That's the power of force multipliers - cultists get everything x 40 for very few points.
Well they already nerfed Tide Of Traitors, everyone knows that VotLW needs an adjustment, and...yeah that's about it.
Bumping VotLW cost takes it out of range of usefulness for other units. Removing it from cultists makes the far less useful. Restricting cultists to 20 would be a better option, perhaps.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 20:35:00
You joke, but it could very well be relevant. If chaos termies were 23 then you'd get double tapping plasma monsters for 39 points each.
If cultists got nerfed, because of available stratagems then it's equally likely terminators were given the same consideration.
That's idiotic though
If the reason to "fix" everything chaos is that they might be double tapping monsters MAYBE the issue is in the double tapping stratagem, rather than nerfing every single unit to the point they are useless without it?
Not like they didnt up the CP cost of things already in FAQs, and to be frank whoever thought a fight twice stratagem is worth 3cp yet shoot twice is worth 2cp to begin with should have been fired for incompetence as its so absurdly slowed its not even funny.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Galef wrote: Which is kinda why I am starting to think Chapter tactic/Legion traits should be moved to Narrative/Open play only.
You can still be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion for the keywords, strats and relics in Matched Play, but if you want that -1 to be hit, you have to play Narrative.
Rumor has it all the -1 to hit army traits are becoming +1 cover save under the same conditions, I guess we'll see if that's true when CA hits.
Obviously, +1 cover save is significantly less useful to cultists than -1 to hit.
That was the rumour with CA2018, which didn't apparently happen. When is the next FAQ supposed to drop?
You joke, but it could very well be relevant. If chaos termies were 23 then you'd get double tapping plasma monsters for 39 points each.
If cultists got nerfed, because of available stratagems then it's equally likely terminators were given the same consideration.
That's idiotic though
If the reason to "fix" everything chaos is that they might be double tapping monsters MAYBE the issue is in the double tapping stratagem, rather than nerfing every single unit to the point they are useless without it?
Not like they didnt up the CP cost of things already in FAQs, and to be frank whoever thought a fight twice stratagem is worth 3cp yet shoot twice is worth 2cp to begin with should have been fired for incompetence as its so absurdly slowed its not even funny.
Thank you!
That's the whole problem and rather then solving it they went along and fought the Symptomes.
Not only that but now lists that did not spam cultists but used them for their gameplan can now go take a hike off a cliff.
GW logic at it's finest.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
