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 SHUPPET wrote:
Also, am I the only person who thinks a sorceror casting a strength enhancer or an enrage upon a horde of Cultists, and then throwing them facefirst to take a dent out of a big threat before the things they care about losing dig in, is actually entirely thematic, and is exactly what plenty of Legions use them for? I'm not sure where this idea that Cultists are just meant to be small objective holders thematically comes from, that actually seems contrary to the lore.

I totally agree with you!
I feel like the cultists get ground forward, and the CSM are the true objective holders. It doesn't quite play out that way, but I 100% agree with you about its connection to the lore.

 sfshilo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Im not totally convinced it's a great reason, but to me I would think it's because Cultists are not meant to be the focus of a Heretic Astartes army, they are an added extra you can throw in. Chaff is not something Chaos Marines are supposed to get easily, therefore they pay a premium to have them in their codex.

Of course, the availability of soup makes this not a terribly good reason.

The iron warriors and AL would disagree with you. Of course also it would help if the heretic ASTARTES part of the army would not suck so hard.
Heck i fathom that cultists could literally be 6ppm and would still be taken before CSM of any kind since they just can't generate enough CP for a csm army to function.

Heretic astartes do not suck, they were just outclassed by cultists.

They don't?
In what a meta do you play then?

Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

 sfshilo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Im not totally convinced it's a great reason, but to me I would think it's because Cultists are not meant to be the focus of a Heretic Astartes army, they are an added extra you can throw in. Chaff is not something Chaos Marines are supposed to get easily, therefore they pay a premium to have them in their codex.

Of course, the availability of soup makes this not a terribly good reason.

The iron warriors and AL would disagree with you. Of course also it would help if the heretic ASTARTES part of the army would not suck so hard.
Heck i fathom that cultists could literally be 6ppm and would still be taken before CSM of any kind since they just can't generate enough CP for a csm army to function.

Heretic astartes do not suck, they were just outclassed by cultists.

Remove cultists and they would still be bad. Sure they might see more play being only troop so needed for cp but all it would accomplish is huge nerf to chaos.

Bad units don't become good just by nerfing alternatives

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

Conscripts should be 3 points again. Getting hit with 3 nerfs was a bit too much. With the changes to Commissars and orders, 3 would be alright. Also, not all veterans need carapace armour, that would be weird.

 Trickstick wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

Conscripts should be 3 points again. Getting hit with 3 nerfs was a bit too much. With the changes to Commissars and orders, 3 would be alright. Also, not all veterans need carapace armour, that would be weird.

I more think of the armor as making them worth the 6 points than the guard actually giving them the better armor. though it would make sense to give your mroe elite tropops who are shooting at the level of a space marine better protection/equipment.

as for conscripts.. i wish they had not nerfed commissars as it made sense to have the two together. pushing the conscripts into combat. but I do think even as is compared to cultusts being 5 poitns and compared to most other units... they would be a 4 point model. that is again assuming guardsman were where they should be at 5 points per model.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

Oh just fething stop with the Cruddace nonsense. The guy is constantly painted as being so "protective" of Guard, but quite frankly?
He's screwed us over more than anyone else has.
He's the reason why our Sergeants are gak with no options other than "Derp! Pistols and CCWs!", he's the reason why we had stupid Commissars thrown into such a big role for the past two editions, and he's the reason why we lost all the kits for Veterans.

Guard don't need to be at 5 points. Cultists going up sucks certainly, but anyone who is still on about Conscripts at all(who received THREE nerfs that rendered them completely useless compared to this single one that Cultists have seen which just makes them a bit harder to fit into lists) needs to step back and realize they need to learn to play.

I mean fricking seriously, Conscripts? Still? Who the feth even uses them at this point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

Conscripts should be 3 points again. Getting hit with 3 nerfs was a bit too much. With the changes to Commissars and orders, 3 would be alright. Also, not all veterans need carapace armour, that would be weird.

I more think of the armor as making them worth the 6 points than the guard actually giving them the better armor. though it would make sense to give your mroe elite tropops who are shooting at the level of a space marine better protection/equipment.

They'd still be T3. You want to give them better protection, give them a -1 to hit from shooting attacks and a +1 to Cover Saves.

as for conscripts.. i wish they had not nerfed commissars as it made sense to have the two together. pushing the conscripts into combat. but I do think even as is compared to cultusts being 5 poitns and compared to most other units... they would be a 4 point model. that is again assuming guardsman were where they should be at 5 points per model.

No, they wouldn't be. They have 0 options aside from "additional models".

If you want Cultists to go down in price, they need to start shedding keywords before that can happen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

Oh just fething stop with the Cruddace nonsense. The guy is constantly painted as being so "protective" of Guard, but quite frankly?
He's screwed us over more than anyone else has.
He's the reason why our Sergeants are gak with no options other than "Derp! Pistols and CCWs!", he's the reason why we had stupid Commissars thrown into such a big role for the past two editions, and he's the reason why we lost all the kits for Veterans.

Guard don't need to be at 5 points. Cultists going up sucks certainly, but anyone who is still on about Conscripts at all(who received THREE nerfs that rendered them completely useless compared to this single one that Cultists have seen which just makes them a bit harder to fit into lists) needs to step back and realize they need to learn to play.

I mean fricking seriously, Conscripts? Still? Who the feth even uses them at this point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor

Conscripts should be 3 points again. Getting hit with 3 nerfs was a bit too much. With the changes to Commissars and orders, 3 would be alright. Also, not all veterans need carapace armour, that would be weird.

I more think of the armor as making them worth the 6 points than the guard actually giving them the better armor. though it would make sense to give your mroe elite tropops who are shooting at the level of a space marine better protection/equipment.

They'd still be T3. You want to give them better protection, give them a -1 to hit from shooting attacks and a +1 to Cover Saves.

as for conscripts.. i wish they had not nerfed commissars as it made sense to have the two together. pushing the conscripts into combat. but I do think even as is compared to cultusts being 5 poitns and compared to most other units... they would be a 4 point model. that is again assuming guardsman were where they should be at 5 points per model.

No, they wouldn't be. They have 0 options aside from "additional models".

If you want Cultists to go down in price, they need to start shedding keywords before that can happen.

so my point is invalid because you want me to stop... interesting. I believe telling another user such is a violation of the user agreement here and community behavior guidelines... but what do i know. Perhaps better wording would be that you disagree and feel differently rather than telling another user thier opinion is invalid and they cannot continue in such a manner. (not reporting at all, not my style, but please consider less hostile verbage as it could be toxic to our community and chase off newbies/keep lurkers from inputing thier opions and adding to discussion)

I will agree that guard was not always in a good place certainly, and they should have been stronger in previous editions. But Cruddace was not a lead developer at that point from my understanding. duriing 6th/7th matt ward wanted uber space marines and guard were the support and weak so... they were. Now headed by Cruddace guard are at the top and in most competitive lists... coincidence?

Now on the subject of guard also I am glad that they got some buffs in CA and hope to see more tanks around. but in my view it compounds that the rest of the army got stronger while the lone gaurdsman is point for point the (in my opinion) best unit in the game right now. They are the go to imperial soup ally for a reason, cheap bodies to bubble wrap things, orders allow them to be versatile and thanks fro being able to wound anything on a 6 they cannot be just ignored (honestly this is one of the big things making guard worth more than 4 points imo each squad can whittle wounds off tough things they should not even be able to touch with a flashlight.). with changes to jump packs.jet bikes they can no longer be just jumped over in the assault phase and due to model placement they are probably the best bubble wrap one can get. why take those cool shiny tanks and walkers when guardsmen are better?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

so my point is invalid because you want me to stop... interesting. I believe telling another user such is a violation of the user agreement here and community behavior guidelines... but what do i know. Perhaps better wording would be that you disagree and feel differently rather than telling another user thier opinion is invalid and they cannot continue in such a manner. (not reporting at all, not my style, but please consider less hostile verbage as it could be toxic to our community and chase off newbies/keep lurkers from inputing thier opions and adding to discussion)

Your "point is invalid" because it's predicated upon a nonsensical premise that Robin Cruddace was somehow amazing to Guard players or the patron saint of us on the dev team. No. He screwed the army up, badly, with the jump from the amazing Doctrines book to the trash that was his first book and is the reason why Blob Squads with Priests and Commissars became a thing in Ward's era.

You would know that if you weren't so invested into the silliness of "X dev had to have been the one to make the army good!"

I will agree that guard was not always in a good place certainly, and they should have been stronger in previous editions. But Cruddace was not a lead developer at that point from my understanding. duriing 6th/7th matt ward wanted uber space marines and guard were the support and weak so... they were. Now headed by Cruddace guard are at the top and in most competitive lists... coincidence?

And what else changed since then? The whole core of the rules set. And let's not forget that Guard being present "in most competitive lists" is ignoring the fact of the Loyal 32 Command Point Generation Team.

And Christ, nobody is saying Guard were weak--it's that Cruddace was an awful developer who tried to push Guard the way he saw Guard and that was it. The way he saw Guard was literally the way they were at the launch of 8th: Conscripts with Commissars shoveled in with whatever other Imperium stuff someone had. Aka the ONLY build that saw substantial nerfs...

Now on the subject of guard also I am glad that they got some buffs in CA and hope to see more tanks around. but in my view it compounds that the rest of the army got stronger while the lone gaurdsman is point for point the (in my opinion) best unit in the game right now. They are the go to imperial soup ally for a reason, cheap bodies to bubble wrap things, orders allow them to be versatile and thanks fro being able to wound anything on a 6 they cannot be just ignored (honestly this is one of the big things making guard worth more than 4 points imo each squad can whittle wounds off tough things they should not even be able to touch with a flashlight.). with changes to jump packs.jet bikes they can no longer be just jumped over in the assault phase and due to model placement they are probably the best bubble wrap one can get. why take those cool shiny tanks and walkers when guardsmen are better?

Orders mean nothing to "imperial soup". The idea of Guard being the only thing to benefit from the ability to wound anything on a 6 is laughable as well, since your Cultists are using the same statted weapon but with the ability to take more of them in a squad.

Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

Premise: They're not 1PPM undercosted - rather, certain things to which they commonly are compared are bad, and themselves overcosted.

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

Because it's a narrative wargame wherein the Imperium is the heroic protagonist?

Just throwing out ideas.

 Blndmage wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Also, am I the only person who thinks a sorceror casting a strength enhancer or an enrage upon a horde of Cultists, and then throwing them facefirst to take a dent out of a big threat before the things they care about losing dig in, is actually entirely thematic, and is exactly what plenty of Legions use them for? I'm not sure where this idea that Cultists are just meant to be small objective holders thematically comes from, that actually seems contrary to the lore.

I totally agree with you!
I feel like the cultists get ground forward, and the CSM are the true objective holders. It doesn't quite play out that way, but I 100% agree with you about its connection to the lore.

The way I would've designed it is so that Chosen are the base troops for CSM, and Cultists basically screen Astartes infantry, Helbrutes/Dreads, and Bikers like they were Characters until they hit a certain number of models, when they realize "Hey maybe these guys don't like us so much".

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

 Kanluwen wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

so my point is invalid because you want me to stop... interesting. I believe telling another user such is a violation of the user agreement here and community behavior guidelines... but what do i know. Perhaps better wording would be that you disagree and feel differently rather than telling another user thier opinion is invalid and they cannot continue in such a manner. (not reporting at all, not my style, but please consider less hostile verbage as it could be toxic to our community and chase off newbies/keep lurkers from inputing thier opions and adding to discussion)

Your "point is invalid" because it's predicated upon a nonsensical premise that Robin Cruddace was somehow amazing to Guard players or the patron saint of us on the dev team. No. He screwed the army up, badly, with the jump from the amazing Doctrines book to the trash that was his first book and is the reason why Blob Squads with Priests and Commissars became a thing in Ward's era.

You would know that if you weren't so invested into the silliness of "X dev had to have been the one to make the army good!"

I will agree that guard was not always in a good place certainly, and they should have been stronger in previous editions. But Cruddace was not a lead developer at that point from my understanding. duriing 6th/7th matt ward wanted uber space marines and guard were the support and weak so... they were. Now headed by Cruddace guard are at the top and in most competitive lists... coincidence?

And what else changed since then? The whole core of the rules set. And let's not forget that Guard being present "in most competitive lists" is ignoring the fact of the Loyal 32 Command Point Generation Team.

And Christ, nobody is saying Guard were weak--it's that Cruddace was an awful developer who tried to push Guard the way he saw Guard and that was it. The way he saw Guard was literally the way they were at the launch of 8th: Conscripts with Commissars shoveled in with whatever other Imperium stuff someone had. Aka the ONLY build that saw substantial nerfs...

Now on the subject of guard also I am glad that they got some buffs in CA and hope to see more tanks around. but in my view it compounds that the rest of the army got stronger while the lone gaurdsman is point for point the (in my opinion) best unit in the game right now. They are the go to imperial soup ally for a reason, cheap bodies to bubble wrap things, orders allow them to be versatile and thanks fro being able to wound anything on a 6 they cannot be just ignored (honestly this is one of the big things making guard worth more than 4 points imo each squad can whittle wounds off tough things they should not even be able to touch with a flashlight.). with changes to jump packs.jet bikes they can no longer be just jumped over in the assault phase and due to model placement they are probably the best bubble wrap one can get. why take those cool shiny tanks and walkers when guardsmen are better?

Orders mean nothing to "imperial soup". The idea of Guard being the only thing to benefit from the ability to wound anything on a 6 is laughable as well, since your Cultists are using the same statted weapon but with the ability to take more of them in a squad.

I don't actually use cultists, my chaos list is pink tide, noise marines with chaos marines squads, horde power armor is surprisingly effective.

my imperial soup army gets played more and it does involve guard, but i rarely use guardsman anymore in it, i prefer a themed rough riders with space marine bikers and custodian jet bikes ( i liek themed lists) but when i do bring guardsman... they just do to much work for their investment, my battalion of guard handle bubblewrap, chippign woulnds off even tough things and tar pit big stuff liek tyranids. .

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The way I would've designed it is so that Chosen are the base troops for CSM, and Cultists basically screen Astartes infantry, Helbrutes/Dreads, and Bikers like they were Characters until they hit a certain number of models, when they realize "Hey maybe these guys don't like us so much".

This works mechanically, thematically it doesn't really account for Alpha Legion lore wherein they support highly effective guerilla insurgencies using cultists and heretic guard units. R&H really could have been developed into this concept, but it's just another example of GW not really giving a gak. Hell, you could have made R&H a central component of an Alpha Legion codex, which would have given them a very unique flavor compared to other legions rather than the requisite Chaos-flavored Raven Guard.

Honestly, the entire implementation of Chaos this edition is just lazy and uninspired, it's a bottomless well of missed opportunities.

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The way I would've designed it is so that Chosen are the base troops for CSM, and Cultists basically screen Astartes infantry, Helbrutes/Dreads, and Bikers like they were Characters until they hit a certain number of models, when they realize "Hey maybe these guys don't like us so much".

This works mechanically, thematically it doesn't really account for Alpha Legion lore wherein they support highly effective guerilla insurgencies using cultists and heretic guard units. R&H really could have been developed into this concept, but it's just another example of GW not really giving a gak. Hell, you could have made R&H a central component of an Alpha Legion codex, which would have given them a very unique flavor compared to other legions rather than the requisite Chaos-flavored Raven Guard.

Honestly, the entire implementation of Chaos this edition is just lazy and uninspired, it's a bottomless well of missed opportunities.

Regarding Alpha Legion, the "trained" part would simply be the Infiltration strategem, and telling their dudes that, if they hold the line, help is on the way!

I think it works thematically. I also think the idea of incorporated R&H works too, but leaving them as two separate armies is good for now.

I also agree the implementation of Chaos was lazy. The four Cult Legions need to be separated, and Renegades need to go into the Vanilla codex and be played out using switching of keywords and getting a couple of unique units that are simply daemonic or bad juju (like Possessed and Spawn and such).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

So i get -1 for paying for a psker then having to get the power off.......... so not just having it
I get infiltrate by using my relic slot...... so cant just get it
and we have a strategem that functions that brings back dead squads if we pay the points for those squads before the game starts
thanks for making my point

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

So i get -1 for paying for a psker then having to get the power off.......... so not just having it
I get infiltrate by using my relic slot...... so cant just get it
and we have a strategem that functions that brings back dead squads if we pay the points for those squads before the game starts
thanks for making my point

Boohoo you need to use a Relic slot. It isn't like I have to use a Legion slot that doesn't benefit Cultists in order to make them Fearless, or pay more than 200 points for the dude that affects everyone instead of just using 30 points and a Relic slot to make sure your Conscripts never run away.

See how the trade-off works? Cultists aren't a 5 point model, period.

You two have confused each other and are talking about different things. Slayer named ways of getting those things in a chaos list, and Asmodios was talking about Guard. Guard have to ally in custodes and use a relic to get fearless. I don't think they can get infiltrate at all.

 Trickstick wrote:
You two have confused each other and are talking about different things. Guard have to ally in custodes and use a relic to get fearless. I don't think they can get infiltrate at all.

They have an Outflank Strategem (so, same thing), and a relic that does the same thing, all with differing measurements of course.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

So i get -1 for paying for a psker then having to get the power off.......... so not just having it
I get infiltrate by using my relic slot...... so cant just get it
and we have a strategem that functions that brings back dead squads if we pay the points for those squads before the game starts
thanks for making my point

Boohoo you need to use a Relic slot. It isn't like I have to use a Legion slot that doesn't benefit Cultists in order to make them Fearless, or pay more than 200 points for the dude that affects everyone instead of just using 30 points and a Relic slot to make sure your Conscripts never run away.

See how the trade-off works? Cultists aren't a 5 point model, period.

haha get proven wrong on all your points and the reply is "boohoo"..... thanks I will continue to not shed any tears for cultist. If they are going to remain 4pts they should lose the keyword access to all the traits listed above. As long as the have all those they should be 5points

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
You two have confused each other and are talking about different things. Guard have to ally in custodes and use a relic to get fearless. I don't think they can get infiltrate at all.

They have an Outflank Strategem (so, same thing), and a relic that does the same thing, all with differing measurements of course.

I forgot about ambush. I guess I don't consider it infiltrate, as that is more of the Ratling rule type of thing to me. Do cultists get the same sort of thing as outflanking?

Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

 Trickstick wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
You two have confused each other and are talking about different things. Guard have to ally in custodes and use a relic to get fearless. I don't think they can get infiltrate at all.

They have an Outflank Strategem (so, same thing), and a relic that does the same thing, all with differing measurements of course.

I forgot about ambush. I guess I don't consider it infiltrate, as that is more of the Ratling rule type of thing to me. Do cultists get the same sort of thing as outflanking?

Via Tide Of Traitors. Otherwise all the Infiltration strategems are now just additional movement at the beginning of the game.

fe40k wrote:
Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

*Peers awkwardly at Space Marines*

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

So i get -1 for paying for a psker then having to get the power off.......... so not just having it
I get infiltrate by using my relic slot...... so cant just get it
and we have a strategem that functions that brings back dead squads if we pay the points for those squads before the game starts
thanks for making my point

Boohoo you need to use a Relic slot. It isn't like I have to use a Legion slot that doesn't benefit Cultists in order to make them Fearless, or pay more than 200 points for the dude that affects everyone instead of just using 30 points and a Relic slot to make sure your Conscripts never run away.

See how the trade-off works? Cultists aren't a 5 point model, period.

haha get proven wrong on all your points and the reply is "boohoo"..... thanks I will continue to not shed any tears for cultist. If they are going to remain 4pts they should lose the keyword access to all the traits listed above. As long as the have all those they should be 5points

I proved YOU wrong by showing all these things are faction specific and not universal. Units should be priced on their own merit and then outside abilities priced around that, not the other way around.

Cultists aren't 5 points in any army. Period. Abigail is 250 points and you complain he confers Fearless? Give me a break. You're nothing but a Guard apologist, pure and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

Ork Boyz are technically the same price. What happened was you're basically forced to buy the Bomb upgrade, which is now 0 points.

So if you were already taking it, the price is the same. If not...now you're taking it anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

So i get -1 for paying for a psker then having to get the power off.......... so not just having it
I get infiltrate by using my relic slot...... so cant just get it
and we have a strategem that functions that brings back dead squads if we pay the points for those squads before the game starts
thanks for making my point

Boohoo you need to use a Relic slot. It isn't like I have to use a Legion slot that doesn't benefit Cultists in order to make them Fearless, or pay more than 200 points for the dude that affects everyone instead of just using 30 points and a Relic slot to make sure your Conscripts never run away.

See how the trade-off works? Cultists aren't a 5 point model, period.

haha get proven wrong on all your points and the reply is "boohoo"..... thanks I will continue to not shed any tears for cultist. If they are going to remain 4pts they should lose the keyword access to all the traits listed above. As long as the have all those they should be 5points

I proved YOU wrong by showing all these things are faction specific and not universal. Units should be priced on their own merit and then outside abilities priced around that, not the other way around.

Cultists aren't 5 points in any army. Period. Abigail is 250 points and you complain he confers Fearless? Give me a break. You're nothing but a Guard apologist, pure and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

Ork Boyz are technically the same price. What happened was you're basically forced to buy the Bomb upgrade, which is now 0 points.

So if you were already taking it, the price is the same. If not...now you're taking it anyway.

You proved me wrong by saying "ignore veterans of the long war and guardsmen have all these too" which i proceed to show you that they didnt have? Sorry but your gonna need to do some more research before you convince anyone to change their minds