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Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Still haven't see any actual logical reason why Guard Infantry are now all 1ppm undercosted, bar designer favouritism.

So you missed the entire part of the thread where cultists because of their keywords can
>be brought in groups of 40 instead of just 10 giving CP used on them more millage
>can be made fearless
>can be made -1 to hit
>can use Veterans of the long war
>can Double fire
>can infiltrate
>can have a diminished unit brought back to life (where the guard have to pay for the unit for the same ability)
I'll gladly take 5pt guardsmen if i gain access to all that

You can literally do all those things besides VotLW for Conscripts and infantry.

I must have missed
>the -1 to hit trait
>the fearless trait
>the be brought back without paying points for the unit
>the infiltrate trait

The -1 comes from a Psyker power, you get Fearless and Infiltrate via a simple Relic, and you have a Strategem as well to bring back dead squads.

It's like all those things you named are tied to a specific Legion and the things I named are tied to a specific Legion, yet it only matters for Chaos for some reason. Bias much on your end?

So i get -1 for paying for a psker then having to get the power off.......... so not just having it
I get infiltrate by using my relic slot...... so cant just get it
and we have a strategem that functions that brings back dead squads if we pay the points for those squads before the game starts
thanks for making my point

Boohoo you need to use a Relic slot. It isn't like I have to use a Legion slot that doesn't benefit Cultists in order to make them Fearless, or pay more than 200 points for the dude that affects everyone instead of just using 30 points and a Relic slot to make sure your Conscripts never run away.

See how the trade-off works? Cultists aren't a 5 point model, period.

haha get proven wrong on all your points and the reply is "boohoo"..... thanks I will continue to not shed any tears for cultist. If they are going to remain 4pts they should lose the keyword access to all the traits listed above. As long as the have all those they should be 5points

I proved YOU wrong by showing all these things are faction specific and not universal. Units should be priced on their own merit and then outside abilities priced around that, not the other way around.

Cultists aren't 5 points in any army. Period. Abigail is 250 points and you complain he confers Fearless? Give me a break. You're nothing but a Guard apologist, pure and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

Ork Boyz are technically the same price. What happened was you're basically forced to buy the Bomb upgrade, which is now 0 points.

So if you were already taking it, the price is the same. If not...now you're taking it anyway.

You proved me wrong by saying "ignore veterans of the long war and guardsmen have all these too" which i proceed to show you that they didnt have? Sorry but your gonna need to do some more research before you convince anyone to change their minds

Read your post again. I showed that Conscripts and Infantry can get all the things you listed.

You showed that conscripts could
>get -1 to hit by buying a psker and casting a power on them
>you can pay CP in order to infiltrate them
>You can pay points for another full unit and CP to get tide of traders
>you could pay 2 CP to get fearless like everyone else in the game but cant get on multiple squads
>can do nothing to get VOTLW
wow you really showed that they should be a point more. Thanks again for making my point

You're acting like Guard don't have their own traits and bonuses (a lot of which are actually really good), and acting like Cultists don't pay CP/points to get those bonuses as well.

Cmon.

So the point is, all units can get SUBJECTIVELY equal buffs, so saying X gets Y is irrelevant when A can get B, with Y & B being subjectively equal.

Both sides need to stop refuting the subjectivity of this buff vs that and just look at the units and what THEY provide to an army.
Objectively, Guard Infantry are flat out better for Guard than Cultists are for Chaos. Better armour save, better options.

Most would be fine if Cultists and Guardsman were equal in posts, but Cultists being MORE than Guardsman FOR WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THEIR ARMY is just living in opposite land

-

fe40k wrote:
You're acting like Guard don't have their own traits and bonuses (a lot of which are actually really good), and acting like Cultists don't pay CP/points to get those bonuses as well.

Cmon.

Thanks for putting that more elegantly than I did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So the point is, all units can get SUBJECTIVELY equal buffs, so saying X gets Y is irrelevant when A can get B, with Y & B being subjectively equal.

Both sides need to stop refuting the subjectivity of this buff vs that and just look at the units and what THEY provide to an army.
Objectively, Guard Infantry are flat out better for Guard than Cultists are for Chaos. Better armour save, better options.

Most would be fine if Cultists and Guardsman were equal in posts, but Cultists being MORE than Guardsman FOR WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THEIR ARMY is just living in opposite land

-

The particular poster is a noted Guard apologist. I don't know why I'm trying to reason with them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
You're acting like Guard don't have their own traits and bonuses (a lot of which are actually really good), and acting like Cultists don't pay CP/points to get those bonuses as well.

Cmon.

Thanks for putting that more elegantly than I did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So the point is, all units can get SUBJECTIVELY equal buffs, so saying X gets Y is irrelevant when A can get B, with Y & B being subjectively equal.

Both sides need to stop refuting the subjectivity of this buff vs that and just look at the units and what THEY provide to an army.
Objectively, Guard Infantry are flat out better for Guard than Cultists are for Chaos. Better armour save, better options.

Most would be fine if Cultists and Guardsman were equal in posts, but Cultists being MORE than Guardsman FOR WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THEIR ARMY is just living in opposite land

-

The particular poster is a noted Guard apologist. I don't know why I'm trying to reason with them.

If by guard apologist you mean pointing out very obvious reasons why cultists should cost an additional point then I guess....
If you give conscripts or guardsmen all the above then yeah they should be 5points as well
If you want cultists to stay 4pts they need to lose access to VOTLW and they need to pay points pre game for tide of traders

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
You're acting like Guard don't have their own traits and bonuses (a lot of which are actually really good), and acting like Cultists don't pay CP/points to get those bonuses as well.

Cmon.

Thanks for putting that more elegantly than I did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So the point is, all units can get SUBJECTIVELY equal buffs, so saying X gets Y is irrelevant when A can get B, with Y & B being subjectively equal.

Both sides need to stop refuting the subjectivity of this buff vs that and just look at the units and what THEY provide to an army.
Objectively, Guard Infantry are flat out better for Guard than Cultists are for Chaos. Better armour save, better options.

Most would be fine if Cultists and Guardsman were equal in posts, but Cultists being MORE than Guardsman FOR WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THEIR ARMY is just living in opposite land

-

The particular poster is a noted Guard apologist. I don't know why I'm trying to reason with them.

If by guard apologist you mean pointing out very obvious reasons why cultists should cost an additional point then I guess....
If you give conscripts or guardsmen all the above then yeah they should be 5points as well
If you want cultists to stay 4pts they need to lose access to VOTLW and they need to pay points pre game for tide of traders

Tide Of Traitors is already once per game and Cultists aren't even the single greatest target for VotLW (though thematically I agree they shouldn't have it).

I thought there was a tournament winning list around that exploited VOTLW s on 40-man cultist blobs shooting twice?

Either way, not having to pay reinforcement points for the ability is silly. Better that Tide of Traitors lose the "once per game" and instead gain "reinforcement points", just like SITNW did.

That makes it better for both matched play and narrative play.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
You're acting like Guard don't have their own traits and bonuses (a lot of which are actually really good), and acting like Cultists don't pay CP/points to get those bonuses as well.

Cmon.

Thanks for putting that more elegantly than I did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
So the point is, all units can get SUBJECTIVELY equal buffs, so saying X gets Y is irrelevant when A can get B, with Y & B being subjectively equal.

Both sides need to stop refuting the subjectivity of this buff vs that and just look at the units and what THEY provide to an army.
Objectively, Guard Infantry are flat out better for Guard than Cultists are for Chaos. Better armour save, better options.

Most would be fine if Cultists and Guardsman were equal in posts, but Cultists being MORE than Guardsman FOR WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THEIR ARMY is just living in opposite land

-

The particular poster is a noted Guard apologist. I don't know why I'm trying to reason with them.

If by guard apologist you mean pointing out very obvious reasons why cultists should cost an additional point then I guess....
If you give conscripts or guardsmen all the above then yeah they should be 5points as well
If you want cultists to stay 4pts they need to lose access to VOTLW and they need to pay points pre game for tide of traders

Tide Of Traitors is already once per game and Cultists aren't even the single greatest target for VotLW (though thematically I agree they shouldn't have it).

Let's do some simple math lets say you bring back simply 25 cultists with a tide of traders that is 100 free points right there on 4point cultists (and that's bringing only 25 back). That's alone is worth the cost bump on 100 cultists. Meanwhile the guard ability you have to pay for the full unit pre-game. Its funny getting called a guard apologist while you brush off a free 100-156 point free unit because its only "once a game". Not to mention that while you agree that they shouldnt have VOTLW they simply do and having the ability to pop up and do 15 wounds to a knigh is well worth the 1 point bump

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I thought there was a tournament winning list around that exploited VOTLW s on 40-man cultist blobs shooting twice?

Either way, not having to pay reinforcement points for the ability is silly. Better that Tide of Traitors lose the "once per game" and instead gain "reinforcement points", just like SITNW did.

That makes it better for both matched play and narrative play.

I believe that's correct (it was at least a top table list), but that was a looong time ago, relatively speaking, back when the CSM codex was one of only a couple codices out there and prior to the ToT changes I think.

The codex arms race has honestly reduced the usefulness of that to gimmick status. Honestly, I had someone try to pop that on me at LVO last year, I got first turn and killed the entire squad, no ToT, no VotLW, no EC.

It's just not as scary as everyone is making it out to be.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I thought there was a tournament winning list around that exploited VOTLW s on 40-man cultist blobs shooting twice?

Either way, not having to pay reinforcement points for the ability is silly. Better that Tide of Traitors lose the "once per game" and instead gain "reinforcement points", just like SITNW did.

That makes it better for both matched play and narrative play.

I believe that's correct (it was at least a top table list), but that was a looong time ago, relatively speaking, back when the CSM codex was one of only a couple codices out there and prior to the ToT changes I think.

The codex arms race has honestly reduced the usefulness of that to gimmick status. Honestly, I had someone try to pop that on me at LVO last year, I got first turn and killed the entire squad, no ToT, no VotLW, no EC.

It's just not as scary as everyone is making it out to be.

I think this is most people's problem with CA it's not that it hasn't got some good changes in it.
It's that some of the units being nerfed are no longer problems while even more rampant current meta defining units are untouched.

Also, for the purposes of math, and setting points aside, just to indulge myself (But also for perusal here):

max squad (40) cultists in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony:
vs Tactical Squad
160 shots, 80 hits, 40 wounds, 13-14 dead, ouch.
vs Knight
160 shots, 80 hits, 27 wounds, 9 stick. Pretty good.

Max squad (20) CSM in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony, no special weapons:
vs Tactical Squad
80 shots, 54 hits, 27 wounds, ~9 dead. Damn good, but not quite as good as cultists
vs Knight
80 shots, 54 hits, 18 wounds, ~6 stick. meh.

Interesting.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, for the purposes of math, and setting points aside, just to indulge myself (But also for perusal here):

max squad (40) cultists in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony:
vs Tactical Squad
160 shots, 80 hits, 40 wounds, 13-14 dead, ouch.
vs Knight
160 shots, 80 hits, 27 wounds, 9 stick. Pretty good.

Max squad (20) CSM in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony, no special weapons:
vs Tactical Squad
80 shots, 54 hits, 27 wounds, ~9 dead. Damn good, but not quite as good as cultists
vs Knight
80 shots, 54 hits, 18 wounds, ~6 stick. meh.

Interesting.

Possibly a post for the choas tactics but what about oblits with VoTLW and Endless?

You're comparing 260pts v. 200pts though, right?

vs. MEQ, those 9 CSM wounds are costing you 28.9pts each. The Cultist wounds cost 15.4pts each (I went with thirteen wounds, not fourteen.)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, for the purposes of math, and setting points aside, just to indulge myself (But also for perusal here):

max squad (40) cultists in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony:
vs Tactical Squad
160 shots, 80 hits, 40 wounds, 13-14 dead, ouch.
vs Knight
160 shots, 80 hits, 27 wounds, 9 stick. Pretty good.

Max squad (20) CSM in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony, no special weapons:
vs Tactical Squad
80 shots, 54 hits, 27 wounds, ~9 dead. Damn good, but not quite as good as cultists
vs Knight
80 shots, 54 hits, 18 wounds, ~6 stick. meh.

Interesting.

Should we go over the assumptions built into the math here? It assumes 1) you got first turn 2) somehow you got within double tap range of the knight on that first turn despite the changes to FO. Sure, it's possible, but I think it also assumes that your opponent probably made a few deployment mistakes as well.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, for the purposes of math, and setting points aside, just to indulge myself (But also for perusal here):

max squad (40) cultists in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony:
vs Tactical Squad
160 shots, 80 hits, 40 wounds, 13-14 dead, ouch.
vs Knight
160 shots, 80 hits, 27 wounds, 9 stick. Pretty good.

Max squad (20) CSM in rapid fire with VOTLW and Endless Cacophony, no special weapons:
vs Tactical Squad
80 shots, 54 hits, 27 wounds, ~9 dead. Damn good, but not quite as good as cultists
vs Knight
80 shots, 54 hits, 18 wounds, ~6 stick. meh.

Interesting.

So it proves that Chaos Marines have been poor on offense like always. Remove VotLW from both and you'll see that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I thought there was a tournament winning list around that exploited VOTLW s on 40-man cultist blobs shooting twice?

Either way, not having to pay reinforcement points for the ability is silly. Better that Tide of Traitors lose the "once per game" and instead gain "reinforcement points", just like SITNW did.

That makes it better for both matched play and narrative play.

I don't think SITNW should require reinforcement points either, for what it's worth. Tzeentch Horrors simply had the issue of being too cheap.

fe40k wrote:
Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

They're paying for the regen squad strat.

Martel732 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Why is it that Imperials never have to pay for faction traits/stratagems, but other races do?

First it was Ork Boyz, going up 1ppm.
Now, it's Chaos Cultists going up 1ppm.

...and the arguments remain the same; "but, you get access to traits+stratagems! those should cost points!".

Call me when an Imperial pays for those as well.

They're paying for the regen squad strat.

Then why not make that Strategem more expensive? Obviously Chaos has no issues taking in CP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think SITNW should require reinforcement points either, for what it's worth. Tzeentch Horrors simply had the issue of being too cheap.

I think what always gets neglected with SITNW is that you can't stop it by wiping the squad. Whenever GW gives "free" summoning in 8th, it's always replenishing a depleted squad. It sucks for the Guard that when they wrote the codex, they went with the implementation that requires reinforcement points, but that's what they did. Comparing it to ToT or a Tervigon or whatever is apples and oranges.

 Galef wrote:
So the point is, all units can get SUBJECTIVELY equal buffs, so saying X gets Y is irrelevant when A can get B, with Y & B being subjectively equal.

Both sides need to stop refuting the subjectivity of this buff vs that and just look at the units and what THEY provide to an army.
Objectively, Guard Infantry are flat out better for Guard than Cultists are for Chaos. Better armour save, better options.

Most would be fine if Cultists and Guardsman were equal in posts, but Cultists being MORE than Guardsman FOR WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THEIR ARMY is just living in opposite land

-

Exactly. Nobody would be moaning about Guardsmen vs Cultist points difference if they were both 5 pts (considering they're taken in far different List compositions and belong to entirely different factions) but having guardsmen still at 4 pts is bonkers and that should have NEVER happened

Especially when you consider that R&H Militia also cost 4ppm and are, indisputably, inferior to Infantry Squads in every regard.

No Stratagems, no Relics, no WT, no Orders. 6+ save, WS/BS 5+, variable and terrible Ld.

Surely the main reason why cultists went up but guardsmen didn’t was because the codex is called Codex: Heretic Astartes, not Codex: Chaos Cultists. GW want CSM to be the main focus of CSM armies, whereas guardsmen are the focus of their own codex, not some inherent bias towards imperial guard.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Especially when you consider that R&H Militia also cost 4ppm and are, indisputably, inferior to Infantry Squads in every regard.

No Stratagems, no Relics, no WT, no Orders. 6+ save, WS/BS 5+, variable and terrible Ld.

pretty much all the FW lists are bad however. This also isnt new. DKoK for instance cost more than their codex equivalents and are demonstrably inferior even if they were the same cost, always have been going back to 4E

Largely, it appears that FW has just ceased non-manufacturing related work after Alan's passing. We have no new or updated army lists, GW has seemingly taken up balance/usage issues itself, we got some Index lists from FW at the start of the edition and that was basically it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Especially when you consider that R&H Militia also cost 4ppm and are, indisputably, inferior to Infantry Squads in every regard.

No Stratagems, no Relics, no WT, no Orders. 6+ save, WS/BS 5+, variable and terrible Ld.

pretty much all the FW lists are bad however. This also isnt new. DKoK for instance cost more than their codex equivalents and are demonstrably inferior even if they were the same cost, always have been going back to 4E

Largely, it appears that FW has just ceased non-manufacturing related work after Alan's passing. We have no new or updated army lists, GW has seemingly taken up balance/usage issues itself, we got some Index lists from FW at the start of the edition and that was basically it.

Unless we get something new from FW, I almost think that they are winding down. We know that the model cycle takes several years to complete, so we could just get a few years of things that are already inthe pipe. How is the Horus Heresy stuff going these days? I'm guessing it may become a bit defunct with Primarchs coming to 40k.

I hope I am wrong, but I could see FW either wrap up or become a vastly smaller part of the company, producing only a few select models like titans.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Especially when you consider that R&H Militia also cost 4ppm and are, indisputably, inferior to Infantry Squads in every regard.
No Stratagems, no Relics, no WT, no Orders. 6+ save, WS/BS 5+, variable and terrible Ld.

Your version of "Orders" is blended with your version of the "Regiments" tagline, giving you the Covenants.
You having no Stratagems, Relics, or Warlord Traits means nothing as no Index lists had them until we saw Chapter Approved's first iteration.

Also, "Militia" are one of three Troop options for R&H. Please note that the Militia unit he's referring to gets, in comparison to a Guard unit:
1)10 additional models toting Lasguns(or Autoguns).
2)1 in 5 models get to take a weapon from the R&H Special Weapons list(Flamer, Grenade Launcher, Meltagun, or Plasma Gun).
3)For every 10 models in the unit, you get to bring a Heavy Weapons Team(Autocannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, or Mortar).
4)A Chaos Sigil(roll 2D6 for Morale, choose the lowest)
5)Vox-Caster(roll 2 dice to determine its Leadership value and then pick the highest--so when that "terrible and variable LD is being rolled for")
6)The Renegade Cultist Champion gets an autogun/lasgun standard and can get a Shotgun or a pistol/CCW mix.
7) The whole squad can get pistols+CCWs if they so choose.

Renegade Cultists are another option, closer to to actual Guardsmen than the Militia are(as they're 4+/4+), in comparison to the Guard Infantry Squad they are a bit less flexible but they still are nothing to be sneezed at with the fact that they're basically a GEQ version of a Conscript Squad that also gets Heavy Stubbers+Flamers or Pistols/CCWs.

Renegade Mutant Rabble are the last option, and are basically the 'worst' of the bunch. WS/BS5+ with no LD mods--but they come with laspistols, stub guns, or autopistols and the option for Lasgun, Autogun, or Shotgun. The unit starts at 10 and can be given 10, 20, 30, or 40 additional models. When the unit is first deployed you roll a D6 to see what they get as a mutation, on a 1 you remove D6 models, 2-3 +2" to Move, 4-5 +1A when they charge, and on a 6 you get to make them T4 instead of T3.

TLDR version:
Saying they're "inferior versions of Guardsmen" misses the point. Militia are what Conscripts should have been and comparing them to the Guard Infantry Squad is disingenuous.

Re; Infantry being 5 ppm models. The maths has been done to death on this in countless threads. At 4 ppm infantry are the best troop in the game. At 5 ppm they are still the best troop in the game but the gap is smaller.

I think Cultists are 5 ppm troops, but so are Infantry. Conscripts are not 3 ppm units. Grots are 3 ppm units and there is no comparison. Vets are not 5 ppm units either.

"The maths" are useless. They don't factor in outlying factors such as the fact that Infantry Squads are static units with no sliding scale for unit size nor do the Sergeants have any options.

If you keep trying to say "I made this wonderful formula that shows the round peg fits in the round hole" while widening the hole, of course the round peg will fit.

Does the Sergeant getting options REALLY matter like you say it does? No.

Also, complaining about the static nature of Infantry is honestly laughable. Fire Warriors are pretty darn static too and they have a transport they're supposed to go in!

 Trickstick wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Especially when you consider that R&H Militia also cost 4ppm and are, indisputably, inferior to Infantry Squads in every regard.

No Stratagems, no Relics, no WT, no Orders. 6+ save, WS/BS 5+, variable and terrible Ld.

pretty much all the FW lists are bad however. This also isnt new. DKoK for instance cost more than their codex equivalents and are demonstrably inferior even if they were the same cost, always have been going back to 4E

Largely, it appears that FW has just ceased non-manufacturing related work after Alan's passing. We have no new or updated army lists, GW has seemingly taken up balance/usage issues itself, we got some Index lists from FW at the start of the edition and that was basically it.

Unless we get something new from FW, I almost think that they are winding down. We know that the model cycle takes several years to complete, so we could just get a few years of things that are already inthe pipe. How is the Horus Heresy stuff going these days? I'm guessing it may become a bit defunct with Primarchs coming to 40k.

I hope I am wrong, but I could see FW either wrap up or become a vastly smaller part of the company, producing only a few select models like titans.

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm kinda getting the same feeling in some ways, if FW were winding down or on hold after Alan, I could see it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
...Infantry Squads are static units...

Tell that to my Tallarns...