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Kanluwen wrote: But there's the crux of the issue: Some people won't be happy until Guard are effectively an NPC faction.
Pretty sure this feeling of persecution is shared by almost every user of almost every faction in the game, myself included.
Given what we're seeing from the Vigilus book, BSF, and specialist detachments from KT, I expect that is the avenue of improvement that GW will be pursuing until the release of 9th edition, at which point most of it will get rolled up into whatever 9th edition codex comes out.
It's definitely not the best approach, but it's not the worst either.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
If soup was the only issue, every Imperial faction would be placing as well as Imperial Guard is. They aren't, so it's not.
I would support and enjoy trying out a monofaction event. Imperial Guard or Tyranids would win, but it would still be fun.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: If soup was the only issue, every Imperial faction would be placing as well as Imperial Guard is. They aren't, so it's not.
I would support and enjoy trying out a monofaction event. Imperial Guard or Tyranids would win, but it would still be fun.
Imperial guard is just currently the best ingredient in soup... soup is still the issue look at the top lists for every faction
Imperium top lists
IG+knights+BA Chaos
TSDP arimahn+ whatever (bloodletter bomb/demons/cultists ect
Space Elves
Yannari soup
Tyranids
Soup with GSC allies
What exactly goes in these list has changed with FAQ updates ect but the overarching theme is that soup dominates all edition. Currently, guard is A. Cheap which equals effective CP and good objective holders B. Has a relic that used to give unlimited and still gives 5-6 free CP per game. If both of these change you aren't going to see mono lists simply a different flavor of soup like you have seen all edition for every major faction that can soup. Right now IG is just the most efficient soup for the Imperium but if you think that if guard disappeared soup wouldn't be king still you are just naive
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Please provide this "data" Asmodios because last I checked mono Guard had won a GT and other events.
For the sake of any logical discussion I would expect you to understand that if a faction is the majority of an army (>1000 points in a 2k game) it is the 'primary' and we can see that primary Guard is literally always on the top tables.
This wouldn't happen if Guard weren't incredibly powerful as a force.
In a world of no downside to souping you will always see factions that have the option to soup doing so. It happens in armies that are forced to be mono too. I guess that my Orks are 'souping' if I take a detachment of Evil Sunz and Bad Moonz? If I claimed that Ork boyz were fine at 4 ppm because the problem is actually those Bad Moonz Ork boyz I wonder how long I'd get away with it?
I can't believe some of you still cling to the idea that 4 ppm Guardsmen is fair and in any way balanced. It is clearly broken and needs to be fixed.
I've shared this data in the last like 100 "nuke guard" threads. Simply go find a list of GTs and add up the wins for mono lists or go back through my post history. FLG also has some great data collected from some major tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 21:08:21
As there is no downside to soup there is absolutely no reason not to.
In a competitive setting why would I ever not soup if my faction had the opportunity?
IG is one of the top PRIMARY FACTIONs of every competitive Imperium list. Where they aren’t the primary faction in Imperial lists they are the secondary or tertiary of the vast majority. There are many reasons for that but one of them is the fact that they have the most cost effective troop in the game with Guardsmen at 4ppm.
So increasing the points of Infantry to 5 ppm has the dual benefit of balancing them fairly against every other troop in the game, but also making them slightly (though not enough) less attractive to all those soupers.
I hate to tell you, but “mono Guard aren’t winning a ton of tournaments” is not an excuse and does not defend the obvious imbalance of 4ppm Infantry. Particularly when Guard feature in some 90% of top Imperium lists.
In a competitive setting why would I ever not soup if my faction had the opportunity?
IG is one of the top PRIMARY FACTIONs of every competitive Imperium list. Where they aren’t the primary faction in Imperial lists they are the secondary or tertiary of the vast majority. There are many reasons for that but one of them is the fact that they have the most cost effective troop in the game with Guardsmen at 4ppm.
So increasing the points of Infantry to 5 ppm has the dual benefit of balancing them fairly against every other troop in the game, but also making them slightly (though not enough) less attractive to all those soupers.
I hate to tell you, but “mono Guard aren’t winning a ton of tournaments” is not an excuse and does not defend the obvious imbalance of 4ppm Infantry. Particularly when Guard feature in some 90% of top Imperium lists.
You hit the nail on the head when you said "why would I ever not soup" that is the issue. There is only benefits to soup
1. increased unit diversity to fill gaps
2. CP farming,
for example, guards two major weaknesses are A. sub-par strategies and weakness to -hit modifiers. So when you add soup with 0 drawbacks they can plug those holes easily and have no effective weakness.
This leaves any faction that cannot soup at a distinct disadvantage and anyone who doesn't want to soup at a disadvantage. There should be a downside of soup or the game will never be balanced especially if you don't want to go out and by the new FOTM soup build. Increase guardsman points to 5 nothing will change... up it by a point a weak and nothing will change until people drop guard and put in the next best version of the loyal 32. If instead, you give some sort of balancing to soup you can begin to balance codexes properly against one another
There is a downside for souping. Your auras and most of your other buff abilities and psychic powers do not benefit your allies. That may not be as strong downside than some might like, but it is there. Remember the last couple of editions when this often was not the case.
The argument "mono guard aren't doing anything" also assumes that (a) mono guard aren't actually winning, which is false, (b) mono guard are unable to win simply because they're adding castellans, which is also false, and not proven with the nonsense offhand "but it arn't mono" comments, why take even the tiniest risk of a counter when you can build an un-counterable guard list with a modicum of allies and (c) other imperial factions can do just as well as imperial guard, because the main reason for success is soup, which is clearly false, lastly (d) mono or not is not a meaningful metric in this game because there is no penalty to bringing allies, the game must be balanced around the access to allies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 22:46:32
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I mean it's either that or we do my route that's kinda convoluted, OR we can listen to the people that really want to destroy all Guard armies with a bunch of nerfs.
I'm just coming up with a compromise between two parties.
But there's the crux of the issue: Some people won't be happy until Guard are effectively an NPC faction. There are people who seriously think that the trained troops who have served in active warzones should be BS5+, same as the raw recruits(a literal rule the unit has!) or random scum that in some cases are as wildly undisciplined as Orks. There are people who seriously think that Orders for every army would 'even the playing field' while ignoring that those armies also have things allowing for multiple auras to overlap or be attached to Psyker abilities.
I've said before and I'll continue to repeat this:
Guard need a complete redesign from the ground up. Releasing them 'as is' was a terrible idea.
You mean like BA have been since the Warddex? Yeah, not much pity from over here. IG are miserable to play against as anyone not named Alaitoc. There is no justification for that.
Marmatag wrote: The argument "mono guard aren't doing anything" also assumes that (a) mono guard aren't actually winning, which is false, (b) mono guard are unable to win simply because they're adding castellans, which is also false, and not proven with the nonsense offhand "but it arn't mono" comments, why take even the tiniest risk of a counter when you can build an un-counterable guard list with a modicum of allies and (c) other imperial factions can do just as well as imperial guard, because the main reason for success is soup, which is clearly false, lastly (d) mono or not is not a meaningful metric in this game because there is no penalty to bringing allies, the game must be balanced around the access to allies.
Marmatag wrote: The argument "mono guard aren't doing anything" also assumes that (a) mono guard aren't actually winning, which is false, (b) mono guard are unable to win simply because they're adding castellans, which is also false, and not proven with the nonsense offhand "but it arn't mono" comments, why take even the tiniest risk of a counter when you can build an un-counterable guard list with a modicum of allies and (c) other imperial factions can do just as well as imperial guard, because the main reason for success is soup, which is clearly false, lastly (d) mono or not is not a meaningful metric in this game because there is no penalty to bringing allies, the game must be balanced around the access to allies.
So much this.
RIGHT? PROBLEM IS SOUP.. NOT ALSO BECAUSE GUARD ARE CHEAP AS CHIPS FOR WHAT THEY BRING... PROMISE
honestly, at this point id love for guardsmen to just be 15ppm so I could watch all the new "nuke unit x" threads for the next big souped in unit and watch the same posters on dakka say "there's nothing wrong with soup having no downside x unit is the issue" as mono armies and factions get pushed further into obscurity and soup becomes more and more necessary
Asmodios wrote: honestly, at this point id love for guardsmen to just be 15ppm so I could watch all the new "nuke unit x" threads for the next big souped in unit and watch the same posters on dakka say "there's nothing wrong with soup having no downside x unit is the issue" as mono armies and factions get pushed further into obscurity and soup becomes more and more necessary
That's right, when you don't have an answer to a discussion, back out with a dumb statement. Says a lot.
Asmodios wrote: honestly, at this point id love for guardsmen to just be 15ppm so I could watch all the new "nuke unit x" threads for the next big souped in unit and watch the same posters on dakka say "there's nothing wrong with soup having no downside x unit is the issue" as mono armies and factions get pushed further into obscurity and soup becomes more and more necessary
That's right, when you don't have an answer to a discussion, back out with a dumb statement. Says a lot.
I've provided stats and statistics in thread after thread just to be met by "if you put 2 undamaged squads of guardsmen within rapid fire range with a commander so they can shoot a firewarrior clearly guard are OP". Yet almost ever top tournament is won by soup, the most winning list in 40k isn't guard its yannari, at tournaments like nova the higher % of guard your army included the more your win % dropped and on and on and on. There clearly is no amount of data that you will listen to so at this point it would be hilarious for guardsmen to be nuked into oblivion and have nothing actually change.
Asmodios wrote: honestly, at this point id love for guardsmen to just be 15ppm so I could watch all the new "nuke unit x" threads for the next big souped in unit and watch the same posters on dakka say "there's nothing wrong with soup having no downside x unit is the issue" as mono armies and factions get pushed further into obscurity and soup becomes more and more necessary
That's right, when you don't have an answer to a discussion, back out with a dumb statement. Says a lot.
I've provided stats and statistics in thread after thread just to be met by "if you put 2 undamaged squads of guardsmen within rapid fire range with a commander so they can shoot a firewarrior clearly guard are OP". Yet almost ever top tournament is won by soup, the most winning list in 40k isn't guard its yannari, at tournaments like nova the higher % of guard your army included the more your win % dropped and on and on and on. There clearly is no amount of data that you will listen to so at this point it would be hilarious for guardsmen to be nuked into oblivion and have nothing actually change.
Your data sure as hell proves soup is strong. That's not anything anyone else in this thread is debating. The dumb thing is guardsmen staying at 4ppm when other armies have had their troops bumped up in price. Stop citing your data when soup is a different issue.
Asmodios wrote: honestly, at this point id love for guardsmen to just be 15ppm so I could watch all the new "nuke unit x" threads for the next big souped in unit and watch the same posters on dakka say "there's nothing wrong with soup having no downside x unit is the issue" as mono armies and factions get pushed further into obscurity and soup becomes more and more necessary
That's right, when you don't have an answer to a discussion, back out with a dumb statement. Says a lot.
I've provided stats and statistics in thread after thread just to be met by "if you put 2 undamaged squads of guardsmen within rapid fire range with a commander so they can shoot a firewarrior clearly guard are OP". Yet almost ever top tournament is won by soup, the most winning list in 40k isn't guard its yannari, at tournaments like nova the higher % of guard your army included the more your win % dropped and on and on and on. There clearly is no amount of data that you will listen to so at this point it would be hilarious for guardsmen to be nuked into oblivion and have nothing actually change.
Your data sure as hell proves soup is strong. That's not anything anyone else in this thread is debating. The dumb thing is guardsmen staying at 4ppm when other armies have had their troops bumped up in price. Stop citing your data when soup is a different issue.
That's the issue soup makes it impossible to actually judge the strength of a codex and its units on that specific army. Not to mention when you nerf units based on soup you hurt mon armies which are already struggling in a soup meta and make it even harder for them to compete against soup.... But whatever nuke guard I wanna see what becomes the new "op unit" and watch the next wave of mono armies get whacked because of it
Sorry man, but in a soup allowing meta, choosing to not soup is your own choice to make. I don't like it either, but it's GW's stance. I grew up loving DOW1, and to this day those sort of army compositions are what I'd love to see in 40k. Mono faction armies, with a balance of infantry and vehicles, no superheavies... I'd love to see armies being given a separate quota for vehicles to bring and infantry to bring, as to whether that would work...that's another discussion entirely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 00:50:29
That's the issue soup makes it impossible to actually judge the strength of a codex and its units on that specific army. Not to mention when you nerf units based on soup you hurt mon armies which are already struggling in a soup meta and make it even harder for them to compete against soup.... But whatever nuke guard I wanna see what becomes the new "op unit" and watch the next wave of mono armies get whacked because of it
You just don't get it. Soup is not actually its own thing. There is no soup codex, no soup units, no soup chapter tactics or stratagems. It is merely its ingredients. IG + Knights soup has more in common with pure IG than with Marines + SoB soup. By nerfing the individual components of the problematic soup builds, you nerf that specific, build, but not some completely unrelated builds that had literally nothing in common with that build. And yes, this nerfs those specific armies from which those components originated as well. However, it doesn't nerf them in relation of that soup build, as that got nerfed too.
That's the issue soup makes it impossible to actually judge the strength of a codex and its units on that specific army. Not to mention when you nerf units based on soup you hurt mon armies which are already struggling in a soup meta and make it even harder for them to compete against soup.... But whatever nuke guard I wanna see what becomes the new "op unit" and watch the next wave of mono armies get whacked because of it
You just don't get it. Soup is not actually its own thing. There is no soup codex, no soup units, no soup chapter tactics or stratagems. It is merely its ingredients. IG + Knights soup has more in common with pure IG than with Marines + SoB soup. By nerfing the individual components of the problematic soup builds, you nerf that specific, build, but not some completely unrelated builds that had literally nothing in common with that build. And yes, this nerfs those specific armies from which those components originated as well. However, it doesn't nerf them in relation of that soup build, as that got nerfed too.
Add in the fact that IG's codex got point reductions elsewhere, you know, shuffling power away from the guardsmen? But then left guardsmen intact?????..Idk. As long as soup is allowed, units have to be priced against how soup will use them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 01:02:16
Add in the fact that IG's codex got point reductions elsewhere, you know, shuffling power away from the guardsmen? But then left guardsmen intact?????..Idk. As long as soup is allowed, units have to be priced against how soup will use them.
And price cuts for other units is a good point. If you need to nerf some unit (even due its over performance in the soup) you can compensate by lowering price of some other units in the affected codex if there is a fear that the nerf would be too harsh for the army when fielded as mono.
Asmodios wrote: honestly, at this point id love for guardsmen to just be 15ppm so I could watch all the new "nuke unit x" threads for the next big souped in unit and watch the same posters on dakka say "there's nothing wrong with soup having no downside x unit is the issue" as mono armies and factions get pushed further into obscurity and soup becomes more and more necessary
That's right, when you don't have an answer to a discussion, back out with a dumb statement. Says a lot.
I've provided stats and statistics in thread after thread just to be met by "if you put 2 undamaged squads of guardsmen within rapid fire range with a commander so they can shoot a firewarrior clearly guard are OP". Yet almost ever top tournament is won by soup, the most winning list in 40k isn't guard its yannari, at tournaments like nova the higher % of guard your army included the more your win % dropped and on and on and on. There clearly is no amount of data that you will listen to so at this point it would be hilarious for guardsmen to be nuked into oblivion and have nothing actually change.
Your data sure as hell proves soup is strong. That's not anything anyone else in this thread is debating. The dumb thing is guardsmen staying at 4ppm when other armies have had their troops bumped up in price. Stop citing your data when soup is a different issue.
That's the issue soup makes it impossible to actually judge the strength of a codex and its units on that specific army. Not to mention when you nerf units based on soup you hurt mon armies which are already struggling in a soup meta and make it even harder for them to compete against soup.... But whatever nuke guard I wanna see what becomes the new "op unit" and watch the next wave of mono armies get whacked because of it
So you're saying we don't need to hit the Castellan because we don't know its real strength as a unit?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
And also, absolute LUL at the thought that 5ppm guardsmen means they are suddenly unusable. feth receiving the same +1pt treatment as other, overperforming troops from other armies such as Ork Boyz or cultists.
SHUPPET wrote: w1zard, he's saying mono faction should be stronger than soup lists. That doesn't mean buffing the armies, that just benefits soup as well. It means buffing mechanics for solo factions, or even better, nerfing soup mechanics
My bad, I read that too fast and misunderstood what he was saying. I think to an extent soup is always going to be stronger because it offers a wider array of options than limiting yourself to a single codex. However, mono-codex shouldn't be so weak in comparison that it totally can't compete IMO.
Dandelion wrote: I know which math you're talking about (I did it) and it was done with 7pt FW vs 5pt guard. In a shootout FW still lose a tiny bit to Guard but they perform better against marines. But Guardsmen can take more special weapons which evens the gap considerably vs marines. Adding heavy bolter + plasma is better point for point against MEQ than FW at long range, but they're even at short range. This was without considering external buffs.
Take that as you will.
Ah ok, then that was my mistake. Would you mind posting the analysis here again?
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Pretty sure this feeling of persecution is shared by almost every user of almost every faction in the game, myself included.
Yeah, but I have had people literally tell me to my face that guard shouldn't even be a playable faction and that normal humans shouldn't be a viable fighting force in the 40k setting. I highly doubt everyone who wants guard nerfed shares that opinion, but I am sure some do, and I don't think any other factions have that issue. Some people get really salty when their genetically enhanced supersoldiers/psychic uber elves/space egyptian killbots get destroyed by a bunch of plain jane humans wearing cardboard armor and wielding gakky laser pointers,
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 01:40:54
Yeah, but I have had people literally tell me to my face that guard shouldn't even be a playable faction and that normal humans shouldn't be a viable fighting force in the 40k setting. I highly doubt everyone who wants guard nerfed shares that opinion, but I am sure some do, and I don't think any other factions have that issue. Some people get really salty when their genetically enhanced supersoldiers/psychic uber elves/space egyptian killbots get destroyed by a bunch of plain jane humans wearing cardboard armor and wielding gakky laser pointers,
Some people say the same thing about Orks not belonging in 40k. So yeah, not just your faction, you can say that about any faction. Because there's always THOSE people.
w1zard wrote: ...wearing cardboard armor and wielding gakky laser pointers,
I always laugh at this. Flak vests, and especially lasguns, are insanely high tech when you look at them. A lasgun is such a good weapon, it is only because the enemies are all super soldiers and daemons that it looks weak.
Peregrine wrote: IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.
Units should be priced on how they perform. Pricing in regards of other factors is why GW have problems with balance and its why some units are just completely useless in the game.
Sluggaloo wrote: Sorry man, but in a soup allowing meta, choosing to not soup is your own choice to make. I don't like it either, but it's GW's stance. I grew up loving DOW1, and to this day those sort of army compositions are what I'd love to see in 40k. Mono faction armies, with a balance of infantry and vehicles, no superheavies... I'd love to see armies being given a separate quota for vehicles to bring and infantry to bring, as to whether that would work...that's another discussion entirely.
60PL 
12PL 