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With the old reliable Chimera getting a significant points drop that was much needed, I plan to go through with my Mechanized IG army, but have some questions before diving in. Basically:

* Best option for Turret Weapons?
* Best option for the Hull Weapon?
* Best Regiment/Regimental Rules for Chimeras?
* Hvy. Stubber or Storm Bolter worth taking as Sponsor Weapons?

Feel free to share your own personal thoughts and opinions and if you plan to field any in your army, share how you will do so and what else you will utilize to support them. More interested in GW variations than FW atm, but both work.

I think the Heavy Flamers are going to be no-no's, they're just way too expensive, aside from that, I think double HB or ML/HB is the way to go for weaponry, though the Autocannon turret is not a bad option with all the price reductions as long as FW isn't an issue. I think heavy stubbers will be good fillers for sure, though I wouldn't automatically include them (but for sure load up on them before things like sergeant bolters or the like). If you want to build an army around Chimeras specifically, I think Tallarn is going to be the best bet to ensure they stay shooting at full effect while moving. I'd really like it to be the Armageddon doctrine, but the Armageddon stuff just really doesn't do much for me.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think the Heavy Flamers are going to be no-no's, they're just way too expensive, aside from that, I think double HB or ML/HB is the way to go for weaponry, though the Autocannon turret is not a bad option with all the price reductions as long as FW isn't an issue. I think heavy stubbers will be good fillers for sure, though I wouldn't automatically include them (but for sure load up on them before things like sergeant bolters or the like). If you want to build an army around Chimeras specifically, I think Tallarn is going to be the best bet to ensure they stay shooting at full effect while moving. I'd really like it to be the Armageddon doctrine, but the Armageddon stuff just really doesn't do much for me.

From my personal perspective the Top 3 Doctrines for Mechanized Infantry lists are going to be: Tallarn, Valhallan, and Armageddon. Army getting one has its uses as it does benefit the infantry significantly but not the Chimera, whereas the Valhallan one benefits the Chineras significantly but not mich for the Infantry. Tallarn does a pretty good job at addressing both making it the most flexible imo.

As for the weapons, I was currently leaning towards Dual Hvy. Bolters (Twin-Linked if FW is allowed) and a Hvy. Stubber for more Firepower with the Tallarn Doctrine.

 Vaktathi wrote:
...though the Autocannon turret is not a bad option with all the price reductions as long as FW isn't an issue.

The FW Gryphonne Chimera didn't get a cost reduction, so autocannons and dual bolter turrets are too expensive to really compete.

Chimeras are still overcosted for what you get IMO.... but have you considered doing an Airborne regiment instead of a Mechanized one? THAT one looks like fun. Take like 2 Vendettas, 2 Valkryies, 2 Vultures with Punishers, and all Scions for infantry, a mix of mounted and deep striking ones. That would rock.

Nick Rose have lately won tournaments with a couple of chimeras used as both transports and as a mobile screen for a bunch of genestealers. That kind of play becomes even more viable with these lower prices. Maybe something similar could be done for AM?

I mostly use chimeras to deliver genestealer cult assault units to the front lines, so I like heavy flamers. They are expensive, but at least they will hit when on the move. (And if the chimera is standing still, it could probably be swapped for more infantry.) 2x H-flamers average 7 hits per turn they fire. That's the equivalent of 3 and a half turn of moving and shooting 2x H-bolters.

I'm thinking Heavy Bolter for both the turret and hull weapon. The multilaser is slightly cheaper but the difference is pretty negligible and I'd far rather have S5 AP-1 than S6 AP-. It also makes things a bit simpler as you don't need to roll 2 different attacks for each vehicle.

I like the idea of Heavy Flamers but even with the price cuts they still seem ridiculously expensive. Maybe on Catachan Chimeras, but that would only be for a fun list rather than a competitive one. Otherwise, I don't want my Chimeras to have to get within 8" of the enemy to be effective.

To my mind Tallarn seems by far the best option as it actually allows the Chimeras to use non-flamer weapons at full-BS when on the move (and they're transports so you don't want them stationary). I'd like Armageddon to be good now but the trait for their vehicles just seems awful.

double heavy bolter/heavy stubber with the Tallarn doctrine is no joke. I tried out the Emperor's Blade formation last Sunday and it was awesome. I made sure to have an oddball character in each chimera I could keep embarked (techpriest in one, Mechanized Commander character in another) to keep their lasgun arrays functional, and they laid down some crazy supporting fire a couple times when my units got charged. the overwatch from a squad of veterans and their chimera (hitting on a 4+) took out a whole squad of ork nobz in overwatch.

I ended up not using the special relic (seemed pointless) but I definitely made good use of the warlord trait and both special stratagems.

the_scotsman wrote:
double heavy bolter/heavy stubber with the Tallarn doctrine is no joke. I tried out the Emperor's Blade formation last Sunday and it was awesome. I made sure to have an oddball character in each chimera I could keep embarked (techpriest in one, Mechanized Commander character in another) to keep their lasgun arrays functional, and they laid down some crazy supporting fire a couple times when my units got charged. the overwatch from a squad of veterans and their chimera (hitting on a 4+) took out a whole squad of ork nobz in overwatch.

I ended up not using the special relic (seemed pointless) but I definitely made good use of the warlord trait and both special stratagems.

Are the formations on Battlescribe at the moment?

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
* Best option for Turret Weapons?

Heavy bolter if Tallarn, multilaser if anything else. If you're hitting on 5's anyway, I'd just go with the cheapest possible option.

Autocannon and Double Heavy Bolter are tied to the Gryphonne Chimera, which did not get a price drop. Heavy flamer is fine, but a double heavy flamer chimera is only six points less than a Banewolf, which is far more dangerous. YMMV

* Best option for the Hull Weapon?

Heavy bolter. See above about the heavy flamer. The new strat for transport overwatch really buffs the heavy bolter as well.

* Best Regiment/Regimental Rules for Chimeras?

Tallarn is the best if you want them to shoot. Catachan if you want to run double heavy flamers (but why?). Steel Legion have a few buffs, and are a bit more durable. Valhallan don't degrade as fast... but so what?

* Hvy. Stubber or Storm Bolter worth taking as Sponsor Weapons?

Among the better two points you can spend. Stubber for Tallarn, Storm bolter otherwise.

I'm considering them for armies that I want to run vets with, usually my Valhallans but I could see other uses. They can be a bunker to protect your vets in the back line while providing fire support, or used to support a push and dropping the vets off where they can fight best without getting shot on the way. Not sure if it's the most competitive, but with the Valhallans shoot into combat order, having a way to protect small special weapon squads until they're needed is nice.

Also apparently the chimera trait doesn't need to match it's cargo trait, which I never noticed. That gives you a ton of flexibility where you can have Tallarn chimeras transporting Valhallans or something. It's giving me an idea for a Valhallans/Tallarn combo list where the Valhallans provide all the infantry and the Tallarn provide all the tanks and transports. Valhallans can screen, handle melee, and are hard to shake up with morale. Tallarn give you mobility, firepower, and the ability to outflank with tanks or hold back key units. The chimeras come in because then you can stash some Valhallan plasma SWS, command squads, or vets in say 1 or 2 just waiting for a crisis and then have them disembark when needed. Can't do the armored fist formation anymore if you do that combo but adds it's own unique options.

Given how I plan to use them, if I kept the chimeras Valhallans I'm definitely giving them heavy flamers. Yes they're expensive but for that style of army they're either dealing with a crisis in your lines, where a discount hellhound helps, or you're slamming them up the board and want that overwatch and ability to maybe dig infantry off of an objective. If I'm going Tallarn probably heavy bolters and see how it does from there.

I just played a game tonight with a mechanized company with 5 Chimeras with dual heavy flamers (much maligned in this thread).

With track guards, they're 98 points. They were unholy terrors on the battlefield. If your opponent can't kill 50 T7 3+ wounds, they're amazing. They never degrade, between the auto-hit flamers and the Track Guards, and they have a threat range of 20".

This game, I moved and advanced for an average of 15-16 inches turn 1, then blew smoke, under the covering fire of the rest of my army (got 940 points in the mechanized company, another 1060 on foot or as Tank Commanders). A couple of Chimeras died, but the next turn was absolutely brutal.

Between the Catachan re-rolls and the 20" threat range, the Chimeras were unholy terrors. Nothing was safe. My opponent was pulling his hair out when two of my Chimeras, one with 2 wounds left and one with 1 wound left, still went 12" and roasted a squad alive each. They were amazing.

Furthermore, I was running the Emperor's Blade company, and my opponent literally ran units away from my infantry+chimera duettes to charge them, causing him to fail several crucial charges for fear of the Mechanized Fire Support stratagem, which would let the chimera fire its heavy flamers in overwatch on behalf of the infantry.

I know it is expensive - 98 points per transport, with the track guards - but twin heavy flamer Chimeras were absolutely the MVPs that game. It was phenomenal.

Once they got past the open ground on the first turn of the game using their smoke launchers, they inflicted horrific casualties - I could count on five enemies dead per chimera reliably, and would bank on seven. Wiping out an infantry squad in 1 shot from the Catachan Chimera happened three times this game.

It was a guard-on-guard game, and I was shocked at their performance. They dropped off ~50 guardsmen in the enemy's face (plus officers), and proved to be a threat my opponent couldn't deal with, hemming him in his deployment zone and having a BBQ.

The big secret was having a few tank commanders in the back absorbing a good amount of the enemy's AT fire, plus using smoke to get across the board. Lastly, dropping off infantry with the Emperor's Blade stratagem got me a Turn 2 assault right into the core of the enemy's Anti-Tank defenses, once the Chimerae had turned their screen into billowing clouds of ash and uselessness.

I know it's only a single anecdote but I was shocked at how good the chimeras were...

The problem with the flamer Chimera plan is that everything your Chimeras did would have been done even better by Hellhounds. As a gun platform the Chimera is bad, and IG have nothing worth putting in a transport other than the Valkyrie formation. And that Valkyrie formation is way better if your goal is delivering melta/plasma storm troopers.

 Peregrine wrote:
The problem with the flamer Chimera plan is that everything your Chimeras did would have been done even better by Hellhounds. As a gun platform the Chimera is bad, and IG have nothing worth putting in a transport other than the Valkyrie formation. And that Valkyrie formation is way better if your goal is delivering melta/plasma storm troopers.

Yes, a Hellhound could do the same thing. I'm actually looking at adding Hellhounds to the army, but debating what to remove - if the Chimeras were unholy terrors, I can only imagine what a Hellhound squadron would be like!

Plus, the "nothing worth putting in a transport" is nonsense, I think. My catachan fireball squads did fairly well, and would have been considerably less numerous if they were in Valkyries, which are damn near 50 points more expensive (which is basically the cost of the squad or so). Catachan Guard can absolutely play the close-range game if they want, and while Valkyries are good to be sure, I think if I had to pay half again the cost of the Chimera, I probably wouldn't bring it, even if it went >20" with Fly.

Lastly, my Chimerae were somewhat more useful than Hellhounds precisely because of the infantry they carried. Enemy basilisk? No problem, hop out the lads and have a go with the bayonets to keep it from shooting while you roast someone. Enemy Leman Russ? Pft, I got bodies to throw under its treads while I burn other important targets. Rather than thinking of the Chimera as an upgrade for the infantry squad, think of the Infantry Squad as an upgrade for the Chimera. It's a Hellhound that pays ~30-60 points more to drop off 10 guys and an officer/priest/whatever to command them for whatever you need them to do that the Chimera could not handle itself.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Plus, the "nothing worth putting in a transport" is nonsense, I think.

No, it's the unfortunate truth. Now that you can't disembark after moving (at least without burning CP for a single squad after burning more CP to get the special detachment) infantry in transports aren't any faster than just having an officer yell "move move move" at them. And if you're delivering special weapons storm troopers can go straight to the target without needing a transport.

and while Valkyries are good to be sure, I think if I had to pay half again the cost of the Chimera, I probably wouldn't bring it, even if it went >20" with Fly.

That would be a serious mistake. The Valkyrie has a massively better threat range because it can disembark its troops after moving, and then the infantry get to make a normal move. Even playing it 100% safe with random death and only moving 20" that's getting turn 1 charges, turn 1 melta range, etc. If you're willing to take a 1/6 chance of death you can effectively extend that threat range to anywhere on the table. And if you're willing to spend CP on the Valkyrie you can get 100% safe disembark anywhere on the table, a stupidly good warlord trait, and better overwatch from your once-per-turn stratagem. The points drop on the Valkryie makes this the easiest decision you can make, they're that good.

It's a Hellhound that pays ~30-60 points more to drop off 10 guys and an officer/priest/whatever to command them for whatever you need them to do that the Chimera could not handle itself.

It pays way more than ~30-60 points because you have to consider the cost of taking a much weaker gun. Add that cost and you're not far off being able to take a second Hellhound that is going to do more than some guardsmen.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Plus, the "nothing worth putting in a transport" is nonsense, I think.

No, it's the unfortunate truth. Now that you can't disembark after moving (at least without burning CP for a single squad after burning more CP to get the special detachment) infantry in transports aren't any faster than just having an officer yell "move move move" at them. And if you're delivering special weapons storm troopers can go straight to the target without needing a transport.

and while Valkyries are good to be sure, I think if I had to pay half again the cost of the Chimera, I probably wouldn't bring it, even if it went >20" with Fly.

That would be a serious mistake. The Valkyrie has a massively better threat range because it can disembark its troops after moving, and then the infantry get to make a normal move. Even playing it 100% safe with random death and only moving 20" that's getting turn 1 charges, turn 1 melta range, etc. If you're willing to take a 1/6 chance of death you can effectively extend that threat range to anywhere on the table. And if you're willing to spend CP on the Valkyrie you can get 100% safe disembark anywhere on the table, a stupidly good warlord trait, and better overwatch from your once-per-turn stratagem. The points drop on the Valkryie makes this the easiest decision you can make, they're that good.

It's a Hellhound that pays ~30-60 points more to drop off 10 guys and an officer/priest/whatever to command them for whatever you need them to do that the Chimera could not handle itself.

It pays way more than ~30-60 points because you have to consider the cost of taking a much weaker gun. Add that cost and you're not far off being able to take a second Hellhound that is going to do more than some guardsmen.

So an army of 100% Hellhounds is the best, except with special weapon Stormtroopers that should be deepstruck because paying points for a transport for them is silly?

Your argument is so scattered it doesn't make sense. And it really isn't a "much weaker gun" on the Chimera because the enemy is model capped. A 3d6 Hellhound that kills 10 guardsmen is just as useful as a 2d6 Chimera that kills 7 and leaves 3 to run away basically automatically. Don't underestimate the usefulness of having infantry.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Plus, the "nothing worth putting in a transport" is nonsense, I think.

No, it's the unfortunate truth. Now that you can't disembark after moving (at least without burning CP for a single squad after burning more CP to get the special detachment) infantry in transports aren't any faster than just having an officer yell "move move move" at them. And if you're delivering special weapons storm troopers can go straight to the target without needing a transport.

A Chimera has the advantage of losing wounds with no detrimental effects. You can lose 4 wounds with no ill effects at all, or up to nine in the case of a trackguard/flamer Chimera. Infantry squads lose effectiveness from the first wound. Those wounds are also a lot harder to lose. You also lose 100% of your firepower on a MMM infantry squad, whilst a chimera still has 6 lasguns and maybe some heavy weapons.

I also don't see it as "burning" a cp. When you have 15, spending a few on some transports can be a good investment.

Now, I'm still not convinced that transports are the way to go. However, I think that they may be worth investigating after the slew of recent improvements.

I like double-flamer chimeras, mainly because you want to move them anyhow, making (non-auto-hitting) heavy weapons a waste.

sure, a Hellhound is better, but assuming you want to bring Chimeras, I'd spring the extra points to give them the flamers to actually be hitting things.

Only exception might perhaps be a Emperor's Blade Assault Company Chimeras (or maybe just one) you plan on using the pseudo-Tau overwatch stratagem on. One of those might be going with heavy bolters/multilaser behind an infantry squad that's screening against Genestealer Cult or something for longer-range support-overwatch. Not sure if the math would make it worth spending a CP on them.


[edit]

Also have a look at Brandon Grant's post CA18/Vigilus Astra Militarum musings for some fun ideas.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/12/20/78608/

It's not a list to win the LVO with, but it sounds like a fun way to take Guard these days.

Interesting. Brandon Grant likes the THF Chimera. Glad I am not alone, lol.

Valhallans is a unique take. I have been running catachan for obvious reasons...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interesting. Brandon Grant likes the THF Chimera. Glad I am not alone, lol.

Valhallans is a unique take. I have been running catachan for obvious reasons...

The mk45 and unique order are pretty good I guess. Also, you can leave the track guards off and not be too bothered.

I'm starting to come round on flamer chimeras, but they wouldn't really suit Tallarn. Maybe a primary catachan blade detachment, then a Tallarn fist spearhead. Possibly.

Eh, yeah, Tallarn doesn't benefit, true.

Reading the article makes me think that Mr. Grant believes the rule of 3 applies to Chimerae, which it does not. Either that or 3 is just a special number for him, lol.

Interestingly, apparently the THF one took a 19% price drop in total. I would like to see that for the other Chimera variants as well.

That list has 4 company commanders. Does ITC use rule of 3? I thought it did.

 Trickstick wrote:
That list has 4 company commanders. Does ITC use rule of 3? I thought it did.

Interesting. Not sure how much effort was put into the list tbqh lol

 Peregrine wrote:
The problem with the flamer Chimera plan is that everything your Chimeras did would have been done even better by Hellhounds. As a gun platform the Chimera is bad, and IG have nothing worth putting in a transport other than the Valkyrie formation. And that Valkyrie formation is way better if your goal is delivering melta/plasma storm troopers.

A mass of catachans supported by a priest and straken are actually quite strong as a melee threat. Especially against other high damage low defense melee threats like genestealers or ork boyz. Sure custodes would be barely phased, but most melee armies aren't that beefy.

I mean there's a reason guardsmen are the best troop choice in the game, and it isn't just because they are cheap bodies.

I'd want to see the interactions of the army on the field tween the chimeras and infantry punch, but I can see how it would be effective and punishing to enemy hordes in particular.

stratigo wrote:
A mass of catachans supported by a priest and straken are actually quite strong as a melee threat.

But at that point you're no longer talking about "spend 30-60 points to make your Chimera have a melee threat". That Straken blob is a core part of your list, and deserves the small extra investment to upgrade the Chimera to a Valkyrie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So an army of 100% Hellhounds is the best, except with special weapon Stormtroopers that should be deepstruck because paying points for a transport for them is silly?

No, that's not at all what I said. Hellhounds and plasma are better than Chimeras and basic infantry, for whatever percentage of your list you want to spend on HF Chimeras.

Your argument is so scattered it doesn't make sense. And it really isn't a "much weaker gun" on the Chimera because the enemy is model capped. A 3d6 Hellhound that kills 10 guardsmen is just as useful as a 2d6 Chimera that kills 7 and leaves 3 to run away basically automatically. Don't underestimate the usefulness of having infantry.

First of all, you're skewing the numbers by assuming every hit is a kill and therefore making the overkill problem worse. Actual average numbers are 6.8 kills before morale for the Hellhound, compared to 3.88 kills for the Chimera. That gives the Hellhound a decent chance of wiping out the squad after morale, while the Chimera's average damage will probably leave survivors. And that's the best-case scenario for the Chimera, against tougher targets where you can't pile up some kills and let morale do the rest the Hellhound has massively better firepower.

Second, the Hellhound has a huge range advantage. Instead of 2D6 vs. 3D6 (with that 3D6 having better stats) it's often going to be 2D6 vs. 0D6. And the Hellhound is free to apply its D6s without worrying about any conflict between the transport role, while the Chimera may have to forfeit even more firepower to get its passengers where they need to go. So you may end up with 4D6, or even 6D6 vs. 0D6. Damage application matters, not just raw stats, and the Hellhound wins at that.

3.88 kills before the Catachan buff, mate, which gives the Chimera re-rolls of both d6s while the Hellhounds can only re-roll 1 d6 (unless you buy it a heavy flamer and get within 8" too, with no infantry to screen for ya).

Don't forget that the infantry are an upgrade for the Chimera. There is no "conflict". I suppose I could see a situation where there could be conflict if you have put yourself out of position to start with, but I have control over that, and try to keep such things in mind when maneuvering.

If all your argument consists of is "the dedicated flamer tank does more damage than an armored transport with flamers" then that's a bit obvious, as the game would be an odd one indeed if that was not the case.

Fortunately, there is a bit more to it than that, though you seem to think the ability to transport infantry is a liability. I am not sure how to refute that argument other than "play your infantry well instead of badly, because there is value there".