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So to all the Ork players I gota ask how many points off an Ork boy you would want to go down to T3 keeping all other stats the same.

I don't want them to go down to toughness 3, I like them where they're at now.

Why would Ork go down to toughness 3? They are supposed to be incredibly hard to kill and injure, inhumanly resistent to all sorts of wounds and poisons. Toughness 4 represents that well.

epronovost wrote:Why would Ork go down to toughness 3? They are supposed to be incredibly hard to kill and injure, inhumanly resistent to all sorts of wounds and poisons. Toughness 4 represents that well.

I dont even play orks but they should be equal to a marine(-shooting) and significantly cheaper.

Is this another IG points thread?

epronovost wrote:Why would Ork go down to toughness 3? They are supposed to be incredibly hard to kill and injure, inhumanly resistent to all sorts of wounds and poisons. Toughness 4 represents that well.

epronovost wrote:Why would Ork go down to toughness 3? They are supposed to be incredibly hard to kill and injure, inhumanly resistent to all sorts of wounds and poisons. Toughness 4 represents that well.

Tygre wrote:Is this another IG points thread?

It's from the "Problems with Power Armor" thread. I mentioned that ork players (in general) are happy with T4, despite having low armor, in response to being told that T4 is a disadvantage for marines.

T4 is absolutely fine for orks, and T3 doesn't make any sense. I'd rather have more expensive T5 orks than cheaper T3 dudes.

T4 is not a disadvantage for marines. It is when the SM player wants to play his army as it was AM since tacticals are too expensive for sharing the same role of guardsmen. Playing SM as a pure gunline is a very bad game design. Unfortunately their codex lacks synergies other than bubble wrap Guilliman and they're forced to play that way at competitive levels. That's the SM issue, not the T4, the power armour or the tac marine points cost.

Orks shouldn't be T3.

Next question?

It does not make sense for boys to be T3. Fluffwise orks can shrug off horrible damage and still live (or live long enough to krump whoever was unlucky to be the closest to him).

To actually answer the question, I think that boys are pretty squishy as they are to AI gunfire, so T3 would ruin them unless they were 4 or 5 points.

 JawRippa wrote:
It does not make sense for boys to be T3. Fluffwise orks can shrug off horrible damage and still live (or live long enough to krump whoever was unlucky to be the closest to him).

To actually answer the question, I think that boys are pretty squishy as they are to AI gunfire, so T3 would ruin them unless they were 4 or 5 points.

Well. Against S4 AP- weapons 5 points would be about same survivavibility per point as 7 pts T4 so game wise would actually be better. S3 weapons would benefit a bit. Conversely S6 T3 orks would actually take more shots per points.

So 5 pts for T3 orks would actually be pretty good deal. Same vs S4, bit worse vs S3(but not big margin), better vs higher strenght guns and more boyz=better board control+better morale+more attacks so more punch per point.

And lol at 4 or less or 7+ votes. 4 or less would be broken good and orks are not such uber broken things they deserve nerf. They already got double nerfed in codex without ever being broken good

Yeah, Orks are fine.

Theoretically, one purely “mathematical” fix to Marines within the current framework of rules would be to just make them seriously cheaper and allow units of 30 or so, giving them the “horde” option on T4, 3+ bodies.

That’d probably be “competitive” with the right point-cost, but goes against the background of Marines and the “feel” the game-designers want from them.

Orks are supposed to be hordes of bodies, and hordes of bodies happens to work very well in the context of 8th Edition rules.

tneva82 wrote:

 JawRippa wrote:
It does not make sense for boys to be T3. Fluffwise orks can shrug off horrible damage and still live (or live long enough to krump whoever was unlucky to be the closest to him).

To actually answer the question, I think that boys are pretty squishy as they are to AI gunfire, so T3 would ruin them unless they were 4 or 5 points.

Well. Against S4 AP- weapons 5 points would be about same survivavibility per point as 7 pts T4 so game wise would actually be better. S3 weapons would benefit a bit. Conversely S6 T3 orks would actually take more shots per points.

So 5 pts for T3 orks would actually be pretty good deal. Same vs S4, bit worse vs S3(but not big margin), better vs higher strenght guns and more boyz=better board control+better morale+more attacks so more punch per point.

And lol at 4 or less or 7+ votes. 4 or less would be broken good and orks are not such uber broken things they deserve nerf. They already got double nerfed in codex without ever being broken good

I put 4 or less because the question is atrociously worded. An ork boy should be 4 or fewer points cheaper i.e. 3+ points. In my opinion 5 would be right at t3, but t3 makes no sense. Makes trukkboyz interesting though

T3 is just to easy to kil, doing to make IG feel useful. Orks need T4 or else the Tau will just reduce thtem to nothing, just like olds, and the sucked because I want to see more orks players.

IG shooting with lasgun over 12"
IG shooting IG = 1 shot * 3/6 to hit * 3/6 to wound * 4/6 fail save = 0.1667
IG shooting Ork = 1 shot * 3/6 to hit * 2/6 to wound * 5/6 fail save = 0.1389
IG shooting T3 Ork = 1 shot * 3/6 to hit * 3/6 to wound * 5/6 fail save = 0.2083

That makes:
T4 Ork is 1.2x as durable as IG against lasguns
T3 Ork is 0.8x as durable as IG against lasguns
or a T4 Ork is 1.5x as durable as a T3 Ork
or a T3 Ork is 0.6666 as durable as a T4 Ork

We also got to keep in mind Ork shooting compared to IG shooting
Ork Shooting IG = 2 shots * 2/6 to hit * 4/6 to wound * 4/6 fail save = 0.2963

and 12" and under where Ork shooting is the same but IG rapidfire to:
T4 Orks = 0.3333
T3 Orks = 0.4167

which makes Orks 1.7778x IG over 12"
and makes Orks 0.8889x IG under 12"

and if we consider melee
IG melee IG = same as shooting = 0.1667
Ork melee IG = 2 attacks * 4/6 to hit * 4/6 to wound * 4/6 fail save = 0.5926

which makes Orks melee 3.5556x IG melee.

We could average these, but some aspects should be more heavily weighted than others. Also there are some differences like range and movement that I have little idea how to model. And special rules etc. Basically mathhammer does not work.

So in conclusion I haven't a clue. There offensive output is quite good, especially in melee, so they should be pointed higher than IG but less than currently. So 5 or 6 points for T3 Orks.

Haven't Orks always been the same Toughness as Marines? They used to have less strength (except on the charge).

As others have said, orks should not go down in toughness. But for the sake of discussion, I'd probably drop them a single point (putting them at 6, right?) Ork boyz actually have a certain amount of parody with dark eldar wyches. They have a similar price tag. They have the same WS (until turn 3). They're pretty comparable to cursed blade wyches in a lot of ways. Cursed blade wyches with +1 Attack drugs if you give them some sort of Attacks buff.

However, orks actually have more/better access to deepstriking, and 'Ere We Go is quite a bit better than turn 2 Power From Pain. Additionally, orks don't typically walk across the table post-codex; they deepstrike. As a result, their increased squishyness from a decrease to Toughness doesn't actually matter quite as much as you might think.

So with all that in mind, they should definitely not be cheaper than wyches, but going from T4 to T3 is probably worth at least one point on them. So yeah. I'd say it would be worth 1 point.

That said, it's probably bad game design to make a glass cannon horde with access to deepstriking cheaper. Even a 1 point decrease might be saving you an extra 20 or 30 points per deepstriking blob.

Avor wrote:
T3 is just to easy to kil, doing to make IG feel useful. Orks need T4 or else the Tau will just reduce thtem to nothing, just like olds, and the sucked because I want to see more orks players.

Easy to kill isn't just stats though but also points.

4pts T3 orks would be actually lot harder to kill than what they are now. 5 pts T3 orks would be generally same or tougher...As it is orks are not that tough to kill. You want to see tougher unit? Imperial guard trooper. Way tougher than ork.

Now if we are talking about T3 7 pts boyz then sure but who on earth would think that would be ok?

WTF? Why would Orks got o T3? There is no reason for that, delete this thread.

Why not makes SM and Primaris T3 then? equally as wrong

Most Tau shooting is S5. Whether you are T3 or T4 makes no difference.

The thing to consider is that a points reduction upgrades your toughness and damage output. The second one being seemingly ignored here. 5 point Orks would do 40% more damage from shooting and assault - and okay you can say "but they'd take 50% more damage from S3 shooting" - but that's as bad as it gets. They'd take 33% from S4 shooting - and the same from S5. 25% more from S6 and S7.

So a 5 point T3 Ork is about as tough as a 7 point T4 Ork - but does 40% more damage per point. This is therefore a massive buff. Therefore I'd not go below 6 points.

This is a stupid thread.

If you want to discuss the value of T4 on marine bodies do that in another thread.

I like having T4 on my Boyz and I feel that they should go back down to 6 PPM unless Infantry and other overperforming units are increased in price. T3 Boyz at 6 PPM would be utter garbage.

The comparison to Wyches above is bogus because Boyz lack an inherent invulnerable save, they move way slower and (crucially) can’t lock units in combat.

T4 6+ save Boyz are not survivable. T3 6+ save Boyz are less so. There’s plenty of S3 and S4 weaponry around for this to matter - particularly in melee where Orks are supposed to do well.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This is a stupid thread.

If you want to discuss the value of T4 on marine bodies do that in another thread.

I like having T4 on my Boyz and I feel that they should go back down to 6 PPM unless Infantry and other overperforming units are increased in price. T3 Boyz at 6 PPM would be utter garbage.

The comparison to Wyches above is bogus because Boyz lack an inherent invulnerable save, they move way slower and (crucially) can’t lock units in combat.

T4 6+ save Boyz are not survivable. T3 6+ save Boyz are less so. There’s plenty of S3 and S4 weaponry around for this to matter - particularly in melee where Orks are supposed to do well.

Especially vs SoB now that can have 5+ units melee twice, sure its S3 or S4 1-2 attacks,, but if they have to melee, now they are twice as good as before, having 1 200pts detachment dedicated to melee can have 51-61 S4 attacks re-roll wounds and hits of 1. Not counting if they spend an extra 50pts to instead just have Arcos, thats 162 S5 -1ap attacks, and if they charge they re-roll all hits, 1cp to re-roll wounds of 1. hehe T3 Orks will be out melee by T3 marines lol.

As is an ork boy is really only worth 6 points, with a low BS in, and no save to speak of the T4 is the only thing letting them sometimes make it into combat is T4. basically this as a change would make orks worse cultists. I get it, you want only space marines to be so tough because you probably have not read any ork books, but by the lore i would say orks should probably be T5 with no armor save rather than T4 with a 6+

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This is a stupid thread.

If you want to discuss the value of T4 on marine bodies do that in another thread.

I like having T4 on my Boyz and I feel that they should go back down to 6 PPM unless Infantry and other overperforming units are increased in price. T3 Boyz at 6 PPM would be utter garbage.

The comparison to Wyches above is bogus because Boyz lack an inherent invulnerable save, they move way slower and (crucially) can’t lock units in combat.

T4 6+ save Boyz are not survivable. T3 6+ save Boyz are less so. There’s plenty of S3 and S4 weaponry around for this to matter - particularly in melee where Orks are supposed to do well.

Its`s good think you are not responsible for the balance, boyz on 6 pts with the new rules will be broken as hell. I mean 30 boyz with strat can do 120 shoots(bad moons) and reroll 1, the can charge and have very good in melee(4 str) and you have option to return 1 unit to full size. And if you start the whine about bs, 120 shots hit 40 times without the extra tries from the sixes and without using "more dakka dakka". Boyz are amassing and they bring much more value then their current 7 pts.

Oh wow... 210pt worth of T4 6+sv units can hit 20-40 times on avarage with a 18" gun and kill like 6-10 t4 models after about 10 minutes of shooting with specific kultur only 1/6 of the playerbase uses. So OP!

It so much dakka, good thing nobody else has units that are cheaper and puts out more consistent damage without the use of their faction trait or command points. Would be a shame if they got all that extra stuff but went down in points. Especially if CA recently let them go down in points even more.

Lol, if you really waste 2-4 CPs of More dakka and/or Showing off on boyz I'd shake your hand.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This is a stupid thread.

If you want to discuss the value of T4 on marine bodies do that in another thread.

I like having T4 on my Boyz and I feel that they should go back down to 6 PPM unless Infantry and other overperforming units are increased in price. T3 Boyz at 6 PPM would be utter garbage.

The comparison to Wyches above is bogus because Boyz lack an inherent invulnerable save, they move way slower and (crucially) can’t lock units in combat.

T4 6+ save Boyz are not survivable. T3 6+ save Boyz are less so. There’s plenty of S3 and S4 weaponry around for this to matter - particularly in melee where Orks are supposed to do well.

Especially vs SoB now that can have 5+ units melee twice, sure its S3 or S4 1-2 attacks,, but if they have to melee, now they are twice as good as before, having 1 200pts detachment dedicated to melee can have 51-61 S4 attacks re-roll wounds and hits of 1. Not counting if they spend an extra 50pts to instead just have Arcos, thats 162 S5 -1ap attacks, and if they charge they re-roll all hits, 1cp to re-roll wounds of 1. hehe T3 Orks will be out melee by T3 marines lol.

If it makes you feel better, the double attack ability doesn't work on Arcos, so they "only" max out at 81 attacks (with a priest).

Orks should NOT be bumped down to T3. If GW did that ( dont see that happening) the resulting WAAAAAAAGH would do some serious damage to our game.

T4 feels right. Let's not reinvent the wheel for stuff that isn't broken.

Ah, yes, once again I see the Marine players are so unwilling to accept reality that they start infecting other armies as well to try to warp things...

Ork players are fine with T4, because T4 is good. Denying the utility of T4 is stupid.

Originally Orks were S3 T4 and Marines S4 T3.

Maybe they should go back to that

I think that 2nd ed got it pretty good.

Marines were the top S4 and T4

Gaunts were T3
Eldare were T3
Guard were T3
Squats were T4 but only S3
Grots/Gretchin were T2
Some orks I think were T3
Bigger orks were T4
Nobz were T5

This makes sense with how the orks grow larger and larger. A young Ork should not equal a Marine.

Perhaps the power creep should move Marines to a base T5 for the game. I think Ogryns are T5 right?

I still like T4 for Marines though.