Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

dhallnet wrote:
We're in the fight phase, the phase where you can chose a unit ONCE to fight (if it meets certain conditions).
And we have an AoF that says you can chose it TWICE.
That's it. Note, they didn't even write "can fight twice", they specifically used "chose", which refers exactly to the fight phase and the unit order of fighting selection process.

The BRB rule actually says that you can choose a unit if it meets certain conditions.
Then in another sentence it says you can only choose a unit to fight once in the phase.

So if The Passion retained the original wording of "fight an additional time" it would respect that you had to be able to choose it fight the first time.
But they changed it "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase", which does two things:
Allows you to choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.
And allows you to choose the unit to fight in the fight phase a second time.

dhallnet wrote:

Since the argument for it is "hey ! it's not written that it has to be a valid choice ! wink wink"

The argument for it is "hey! The rule used to specifically deny doing this via two different methods, and they explicitly changed both of those and now this can happen."

dhallnet wrote:

then you could argue it isn't written either that you actually can bypass the selection process.

You're not bypassing it. The stratagem is literally telling you to do it. It's not even like a block of text or something where what it's telling you to do is confusing: it's one sentence that only says You can do this twice this phase. And the argument against it is "nuttuh, that's stupid."

dhallnet wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.

It's exactly the other way around because they elected to use the word "chose". It's obvious it refers to the selection process of the fight phase where they also state you can CHOSE a unit once.
If they had said "if the aof is successful, you can immediately FIGHT twice", there wouldn't be any discussion. You would pick your unit and fight twice. That's not what they said though.

I think you're missing the point here. Nobody is saying that the unit immediately fights twice. The issue is whether or not the unit can be chosen to fight twice, which the stratagem explicitly enables regardless of whether or not it could have been chosen to fight in the first place.

dhallnet wrote:

For once that their wording is consistent, we still manage to try to rip it apart

Yup. The BRB and the stratagem both use the exact same wording for enabling units to be chosen in the fight phase by saying "you can choose this unit" and people are still saying that's not what it means because reasons.

 p5freak wrote:
I cant play only in death does duty end when my character which already fought in the fight phase was killed by my opponent. No unit may be chosen to fight more than once in each fight phase.

You can do exactly that.

Other rules dont disappear just because one rule says you can do something. You cant play a stratagem which gives +1 to hit rolls on an embarked unit, because a unit inside a transport cannot be affected in any way (unless the stratagem says it can be played on embarked units).

There are rules that circumvent other rules all the time.

Battle shock rules get circumvented by the rule that says you only lose one model to battle shock traits for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

This is YMDC, it's specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion.

Not true. Yet again, HYWPI is a valid topic of conversation. The only thing you shouldn’t do is argue RAW against HYWPI as it doesn’t achieve anything.

Start a thread then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Except the proof provided.

Sorry.

There has been no such proof though.

Sorry.

You might want to re-read this thread then.

Sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:
We shouldn't need GW to spell out everything for us just because they didn't copy/paste the whole fighting rules into a special rule paragraph.
We're in the fight phase, the phase where you can chose a unit ONCE to fight (if it meets certain conditions).
And we have an AoF that says you can chose it TWICE.
That's it. Note, they didn't even write "can fight twice", they specifically used "chose", which refers exactly to the fight phase and the unit order of fighting selection process.

Since the argument for it is "hey ! it's not written that it has to be a valid choice ! wink wink" then you could argue it isn't written either that you actually can bypass the selection process.
If it's not written that you override the standard rules, assume they are in effect. And the only part referring to the standard rules is the amount of time you can chose the unit. Thus, nothing else should change.

 deviantduck wrote:
I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.

It's exactly the other way around because they elected to use the word "chose". It's obvious it refers to the selection process of the fight phase where they also state you can CHOSE a unit once.
If they had said "if the aof is successful, you can immediately FIGHT twice", there wouldn't be any discussion. You would pick your unit and fight twice. That's not what they said though.

For once that their wording is consistent, we still manage to try to rip it apart

Which is 100% correct. Then an army special rule (AoF Passion in this case) says ok, now choose a unit twice. Army trumps core rules.

PuppetSoul wrote:

Yup. The BRB and the stratagem both use the exact same wording for enabling units to be chosen in the fight phase by saying "you can choose this unit" and people are still saying that's not what it means because reasons.

There is a process to chose units to fight. Them not adding it again when it's already in the BRB doesn't mean you can just forget it, imho.
But whatever.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Except the proof provided.

Sorry.

There has been no such proof though.

Sorry.

You might want to re-read this thread then.

Sorry.

I have, and there is no actual proof, just your arguments ignoring rules.

So unless you have some actual proof, your argument is dis-proven.

You can not choose a unit twice if you do not have the ability to choose that unit to fight in the first place.

Do you have any rules that refute this fact? Because the "Sisters of Battle - The Passion" rules do not refute that fact.

 deviantduck wrote:
"Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.

Incorrect. The base rules give you the ability to Choose a unit and has rules to folow in doing so.

A rule stating a unit "Can" be chosen to fight twice hinges on them being eligible to be chosen in the first place. If it meant for them to be allowed to over-ride the basic rules about who you can choose it would say so. but since it does not, you have to follow the basic rules.

Basically you use the ability and it says "Can be chosen to fight with twice" so looking at the rest of the "Passion" rules, it does not tell us how to do this, so we need to refer to the base rules to choose a unit...

The argument they are doing is "my understand of english different from yours" thats their argument.

They are saying "It says to chose, so therefore i have the right to chose ignoring other rules"

That is their entire argument.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The argument they are doing is "my understand of english different from yours" thats their argument.

They are saying "It says to chose, so therefore i have the right to chose ignoring other rules"

That is their entire argument.

Pretty much.

Which is why it works. It give you the choice to use it and ignore three parts of the rules.

Charge order, unit selection for fighting, and the fight once limit.

Sorry that you don't seem to get it.

Or i understand english different than you and i say it doesnt ignore anything, that it is only when you do pick it to fight you may chose it a 2nd time. B.c the way other rules are written, you can only be "chosen" to fight if XYZ, and you dont meet XYZ criteria.

Edit: This reminds me of 6th ed Nids Pyrovore all over again.... "It says it hits everything, so i get to make hits on every unit on the table" yes.. clearly that 1 45pt model when it dies gets to make 700 to 1000 hits.

I guess we do understand English differently. I use it correctly.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Sorry that you don't seem to get it.

We get it, we just don't agree that it allows you to skip anything since it doesn't say so, where "you" think it allows you to since it doesn't repeat the fight rules.

It's like if we had an AoF "if successful then the unit can shoot twice", we would be able to shoot without being in range or line of sight, just because it didn't say we needed to check these.
If we want to read stuff in a weird way and since you decide to ignore what "chose" means in this context despite the BRB having a paragraph dedicated to it, what does fight means ? Why do you suddenly remember the rules there and follow them to pile in and consolidate when in plain english, "fight" doesn't mean moving ?

So yeah, it's pretty much a case of selective reading/understanding.

"So yeah, it's pretty much a case of selective reading/understanding. "

It's clearly not. Again, sorry.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Which is why it works. It give you the choice to use it and ignore three parts of the rules.

Charge order, unit selection for fighting, and the fight once limit.

Sorry that you don't seem to get it.

The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for fighting.

They do give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once limit...

 Mmmpi wrote:
I guess we do understand English differently. I use it correctly.

Not in this case you are not using it correctly.

The rule does not say to skip the Charge order or unit selection rules; so you can not ignore those rules.

Saying otherwise is disingenuous.

So you really believe, that this could be used on a unit, nowhere near an enemy, to allow them to pile in, consolidate, pile in again and consolidate again, to move an extra 12" in the fight phase without fighting anyone?

Yeah, that's nuts, and clearly not intended.

Its the same as the other 'fight twice rules' allowing you to pick an eligible unit, an additional time. You 'can choose' them twice; but you still have to meet the criteria for being able to choose them, it doesn't give you permission to ignore that.

 Kcalehc wrote:
So you really believe, that this could be used on a unit, nowhere near an enemy, to allow them to pile in, consolidate, pile in again and consolidate again, to move an extra 12" in the fight phase without fighting anyone?

Yeah, that's nuts, and clearly not intended.

Its the same as the other 'fight twice rules' allowing you to pick an eligible unit, an additional time. You 'can choose' them twice; but you still have to meet the criteria for being able to choose them, it doesn't give you permission to ignore that.

"Clearly not intended" is the parenthetical nickname of this forum. Puppet is pointing out a crazy loophole on the passion act of faith that is unintentionally letting you fight twice after falling back, or moving a unit in the middle of no where 12". That's why we're discussing it. It's something that is arguable and unclear and needs addressed in a FAQ.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
So you really believe, that this could be used on a unit, nowhere near an enemy, to allow them to pile in, consolidate, pile in again and consolidate again, to move an extra 12" in the fight phase without fighting anyone?

Yeah, that's nuts, and clearly not intended.

Its the same as the other 'fight twice rules' allowing you to pick an eligible unit, an additional time. You 'can choose' them twice; but you still have to meet the criteria for being able to choose them, it doesn't give you permission to ignore that.

"Clearly not intended" is the parenthetical nickname of this forum. Puppet is pointing out a crazy loophole on the passion act of faith that is unintentionally letting you fight twice after falling back, or moving a unit in the middle of no where 12". That's why we're discussing it. It's something that is arguable and unclear and needs addressed in a FAQ.

You mean like the FAQ that's already been posted in this thread?

 Ghaz wrote:
You mean like the FAQ that's already been posted in this thread?

To be fair, that FAQ is not even close to covering this.

People, stay on topic and remember Rule #1.

 pretre wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
You mean like the FAQ that's already been posted in this thread?

To be fair, that FAQ is not even close to covering this.

It is, as it shows that the rule in question is not as all-encompassing as some are making it out to be.

 pretre wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."

edited for intent.

Pointless thing to say. This is You Make The Call - the entire forum is for asking how you would play it.

If you want to argue strict RAW and avoid anyone saying HYWPI, you’re in the wrong forum.

It's been stated before, but once again Specific rules trumps General rules.

The pre-requisite to be chosen in the BRB are to have charged or be within an inch.


The pre-requisite in the codex to be chosen in the codex is to have passed the devotion test.

Seems fairly straightforward.


Another argument made here is that this is clearly not the intent of the rule and to this I say: Why not?

Yes, it would be a great mobility boost to sisters. A foot list, as they seem to be going to right now with the AoF system, is extremely slow and this would benefit them. Furthermore you only get that bonus on a 5+ with a potential reroll (4+ if Ebon Chalice) so not something you can effectively build a strategy around.

It's also something that your opponent can easily play to his advantage. Flanking units would force you to move your units in their general direction since consolidate and pile-in need to be done towards the closest enemy model to some degree. A clever deep strike would even force you back into your own deployment zone if you're not careful.

It has it's advantagesfor sure, but also its drawbacks and seems to be fine for a game. I will inform my opponent, test it with him and see how it works out.

The fight phase follows the charge phase. So you charge are successful , now at the start of the fight phase you use the AOF (act of Faith) on a unit engaged to fight this turn. Easy peasy. Thats it.

also maybe put the exact wording of the Stratagem so we can make a better call.

Id say though for argument sake that if you don't meet the requirement to fight this turn a unit chosen must be one that is locked into combat following the charge phase.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.

"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."

edited for intent.

Pointless thing to say. This is You Make The Call - the entire forum is for asking how you would play it.

If you want to argue strict RAW and avoid anyone saying HYWPI, you’re in the wrong forum.

Disagree. This is absolutely RAW and rules should be argued from that standpoint.

Obviously, I want to know how people would play it. However I want it from a standpoint where they can back their arguments with facts based on the rules and not simply how they think it should be

Otherwise we might as well simply not have a discussion. Play it how you want and I will do the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
The fight phase follows the charge phase. So you charge are successful , now at the start of the fight phase you use the AOF (act of Faith) on a unit engaged to fight this turn. Easy peasy. Thats it.

also maybe put the exact wording of the Stratagem so we can make a better call.

Id say though for argument sake that if you don't meet the requirement to fight this turn a unit chosen must be one that is locked into combat following the charge phase.

Agreed, the fight phase follow the charge phase. Thats the end of it however. Neither of these phases are really dependent on each other.

If I said the Charge phase follows the Shooting phase so if I unit did not shoot, it cannot charge, it would not really make sense right?


Charging is one of the base pre-requisite to being able to fight in the Fight phase. If you did not charge, but have a unit within 1 inch of an enemy, you are fulfilling another requisite to be chosen to fight.

If a codex grants you another way to chose a unit, independent from those two pre-requisite, I do not see why we would not use it.

Voldrak wrote:
Disagree. This is absolutely RAW and rules should be argued from that standpoint.

Obviously, I want to know how people would play it. However I want it from a standpoint where they can back their arguments with facts based on the rules and not simply how they think it should be

Otherwise we might as well simply not have a discussion. Play it how you want and I will do the same.

The rules can be argued from any standpoint, including one that says ‘I think this is a mistake and I would play it X way’. If the majority think it’s clearly a mistake, then that’s useful to know regardless of what the RAW is, because that’s how it will actually be played.

Hence the title - You Make The Call, not What Do The Rules Say?

We’ve all got countless examples of RAW that break the game. People ignore those, and play the game anyway. Remember when only things with eyes could shoot?

dhallnet wrote:

We get it, we just don't agree that it allows you to skip anything since it doesn't say so, where "you" think it allows you to since it doesn't repeat the fight rules.

It doesn't need to repeat the fight rules. They actually REMOVED rules in the redesign to enable this.

dhallnet wrote:

It's like if we had an AoF "if successful then the unit can shoot twice", we would be able to shoot without being in range or line of sight, just because it didn't say we needed to check these.

Not the same. The equivalent would be that if the unit fell back, and then that AoF said "if successul then the unit can shoot twice", and it would then ignore that falling back generally makes it unable to shoot.

dhallnet wrote:

If we want to read stuff in a weird way and since you decide to ignore what "chose" means in this context despite the BRB having a paragraph dedicated to it, what does fight means ? Why do you suddenly remember the rules there and follow them to pile in and consolidate when in plain english, "fight" doesn't mean moving ?

Because you're in the fight phase, and there are rules. The ability is only circumventing two specific lines of the Fight phase's process: eligibility to be chosen ("this unit can be chosen") and the number of times it can be chosen ("twice").

PuppetSoul wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

We get it, we just don't agree that it allows you to skip anything since it doesn't say so, where "you" think it allows you to since it doesn't repeat the fight rules.

It doesn't need to repeat the fight rules. They actually REMOVED rules in the redesign to enable this.

dhallnet wrote:

It's like if we had an AoF "if successful then the unit can shoot twice", we would be able to shoot without being in range or line of sight, just because it didn't say we needed to check these.

Not the same. The equivalent would be that if the unit fell back, and then that AoF said "if successul then the unit can shoot twice", and it would then ignore that falling back generally makes it unable to shoot.

dhallnet wrote:

If we want to read stuff in a weird way and since you decide to ignore what "chose" means in this context despite the BRB having a paragraph dedicated to it, what does fight means ? Why do you suddenly remember the rules there and follow them to pile in and consolidate when in plain english, "fight" doesn't mean moving ?

Because you're in the fight phase, and there are rules. The ability is only circumventing two specific lines of the Fight phase's process: eligibility to be chosen ("this unit can be chosen") and the number of times it can be chosen ("twice").

- You had more rule before the redesign because there is no rule to manage close combat outside of the combat phase and the old AoF took place at the start of the turn. The new AoF is considerably different and you chose to interpret it one way, because it's lacking the close combat rules telling you what "chose" means. Which are in the rulebook, in the fight phase chapter, which is the phase in which you're using the new AoF.

- I disagree, you chose to follow some rules but not the others, the fight phase is cut in multiple smaller phase, one is "chose one unit" and you skip this one because ... reasons. So why not skip shooting rules too, it's written I can shot, so I do. Skipping the choosing process in close combat is exactly the same as skipping range and LOS, both are part of what allows you to make the action in the first place. So if in one rule "i can" because they used that verb, I "can" in the other too.
Edit : Actually, you're right so forget what I just said and it's even funnier than I first thought. Regarding the selection process for shooting, the rule book says "In your Shooting phase you CAN SHOOT with models armed with ranged weapons [...] You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn,or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit", these are the full conditions. So if a rule said "you can chose this unit to shoot with twice", with this logic I wouldn't even need ranged weapons, I guess.

- Yes, there are rules. Where "chose" means something specific and they took the time to explain it. What the AoF circumvents is the part of this rule where it says "can be chosen once" because you're in the fight phase, again governed by rules, in which you chose units to fight with first. So when they say "the unit can be chosen twice", the only single thing that the AoF overrides from this phase's rules, is the number of time the unit can be selected. There is no clue in the AoF telling you that you can forget about the choosing process outside of how you decide to interpret the meaning of "can chose" in that sentence. Plain english, or in the context of the rules.

So yeah, sure, in plain english you "can" fight twice, right now. You then... do what ? Do both "fights" on the spot, charging units first, alternate ? Why, how ? It's not in the AoF rules and it's part of the rule you're skipping. You maybe can fight even 3 times, since you fight twice because of the AoF and decided it's treated outside of the context of the rules, so you're still able to fight by the standard rules after that, no ?

Well as these are technically 'Beta' rules for the SoB, and this one is clearly broken, it needs some rewording to have it make sense.

Probably just adding "Select a unit within 1" of an enemy unit" in there somewhere, or "Select a unit that charged in the charge phase" to force the selection to a unit that is in combat already.

Rather than it being used as silly extra move shenanigans.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Well as these are technically 'Beta' rules for the SoB, and this one is clearly broken, it needs some rewording to have it make sense.

Probably just adding "Select a unit within 1" of an enemy unit" in there somewhere, or "Select a unit that charged in the charge phase" to force the selection to a unit that is in combat already.

Rather than it being used as silly extra move shenanigans.

It's not "broken", it's just really good: deepstrike a unit 9" out, attempt to charge it and fail because Sisters have no way to decrease charge distances or secure charges so they fail 75% of the time, then attempt the AoF and fail 66% of the time, and if it goes off, move 6" towards the enemy, then go to second fight and move them 3" putting them into combat and being able to swing at the target because they declared charge.

Or outside of combat, move 12" TOWARDS the closest enemy unit, after you've already shot and charged, so this movement doesn't combo into anything besides possibly getting to swing with it (aka- doing what the AoF is supposed to enable).

Vessel of the Emperor makes it broken, but that's the problem of that specific stratagem: that any good AoF becomes gamebreaking when splashed onto 20 units.

I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor removed, and the other AoF made competitive again, than keep that gakking stratagem and have another AoF rendered so useless that it's not worth the clock time spent rolling the dice and explaining the effect.

PuppetSoul wrote:


It's not "broken", it's just really good: deepstrike a unit 9" out, attempt to charge it and fail because Sisters have no way to decrease charge distances or secure charges so they fail 75% of the time, then attempt the AoF and fail 66% of the time, and if it goes off, move 6" towards the enemy, then go to second fight and move them 3" putting them into combat and being able to swing at the target because they declared charge.

Or outside of combat, move 12" TOWARDS the closest enemy unit, after you've already shot and charged, so this movement doesn't combo into anything besides possibly getting to swing with it (aka- doing what the AoF is supposed to enable).

Except that is not how it works. You can not use it if you can not choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Except that is not how it works. You can not use it if you can not choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.

The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
Use this Act of Faith at the start of your Fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.

The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.

The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the selected unit can be chosen to fight

The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the unit can be chosen to fight

PuppetSoul wrote:

The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
Use this Act of Faith at the start of your Fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.

You made no actual point there... "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Means exactly what it says.

You can choose the unit to fight twice. Can be chosen does not over-ride the section of eligible units. you still have to be eligible for them to fight in the first place though because nothing over-rides the restrictions of a unit being eligible to be chosen...

If you can post anything that says that they have permission to be selected, while ignoring the rules for unit selection, please post it. We need to see a citation that over-rides the roles for section of an eligible unit. However, those rules do not exist, so your argument is not correct and never will be without a FAQ or Errata update in the future.