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 DeathReaper wrote:

You made no actual point there... "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Means exactly what it says.

You can choose the unit to fight twice. Can be chosen does not over-ride the section of eligible units. you still have to be eligible for them to fight in the first place though because nothing over-rides the restrictions of a unit being eligible to be chosen...

Go back to your BRB. "Eligibility to fight" is actually a process written as "This unit can be chosen to fight" with X, Y and Z clarifications behind it. The Passion uses the exact same wording as the BRB for declaring that a unit is eligible to fight, except it does not have the additional requirements following the part saying that you can choose the unit.


It's important to note that The Passion was previously worded in a very different way before the Beta Codex, where it did have selection requirements, and it did say "you may fight as if it was the fight phase" (so it did not circumvent any of the fight rules except timing).

Those were all removed, and instead they reworded it to use the exact same Can Be Chosen wording for fight phase selection of the BRB, minus the "must be within an inch of an enemy model, have charged, or performed a heroic intervention" part.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

You made no actual point there... "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Means exactly what it says.

You can choose the unit to fight twice. Can be chosen does not over-ride the section of eligible units. you still have to be eligible for them to fight in the first place though because nothing over-rides the restrictions of a unit being eligible to be chosen...

Go back to your BRB. "Eligibility to fight" is actually a process written as "This unit can be chosen to fight" with X, Y and Z clarifications behind it. The Passion uses the exact same wording as the BRB for declaring that a unit is eligible to fight, except it does not have the additional requirements following the part saying that you can choose the unit.

Because the BRB has the restrictions, no need to repeat them.

For The Passion to over-ride the restrictions, it would need to say that it does. Since it does not, then it does not over-ride the restrictions.

It's important to note that The Passion was previously worded in a very different way before the Beta Codex, where it did have selection requirements, and it did say "you may fight as if it was the fight phase" (so it did not circumvent any of the fight rules except timing).
Those were all removed, ...

What the previous rule said has no bearing on the current rules. It is not important at all.

...and instead they reworded it to use the exact same Can Be Chosen wording for fight phase selection of the BRB, minus the "must be within an inch of an enemy model, have charged, or performed a heroic intervention" part.

Again, the BRB has the restrictions, no need to repeat them.

If you have a rule stating that you can over-ride the restrictions in the BRB please post them, but so far you have not been able to find anything that. "it doesn't say I can't" is not how the rules work. You need permission to ignore the given restrictions.

I have to say I won't play it like this, but I'll eagerly await the FAQ/Errata to clarify the intent. From purely RAW I see no issue with the unit being activated two times even if it didn't successfully charge or isn't within 1'', because basically a new "alternative condition" was created which is "pass this test". And from a less rules based PoV I also don't really see an issue with this when there are other units that can be activated two or even three times, not requiring you to have an enemy unit within 1. Khorne Berserkers get to faceroll an Infantry squad and then move 9 more inches straight into the gunline, without any overwatch, for free,because GW added an exception for units that charged to the core rules. And if that wasn't enough you could extend that range by another 6 inches for a couple CP.

*edit* and keep in mind that if you didn't charge, you're not attacking at priority. And you're stuck at S3 even as bloody rose, and losing the extra attack too

 DeathReaper wrote:

For The Passion to over-ride the restrictions, it would need to say that it does. Since it does not, then it does not over-ride the restrictions.

Do you understand that your logic would render Soulburst, most extra-action abilities like Honour the Chapter/Get Stuck in Ladz, and nearly any out-of-phase action as invalid and have it do nothing, because those abilities do not specifically exclaim every rule they have to invalidate in order to function?


Like if I kill your Smashcaptain, can you Only In Death and get to fight? Well, you're not removing a slain model, interrupting an activation, fighting out of activation order, likely fighting for your second time that turn, etc..

But does it work? Of course it does, because you have a supplemental rule that explicitly says "You can do X" so you get to do X, even if it means you break every single rule in the BRB to do so.

So if you have an ability that says, You can do X, then You can do X.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

For The Passion to over-ride the restrictions, it would need to say that it does. Since it does not, then it does not over-ride the restrictions.

Do you understand that your logic would render Soulburst, most extra-action abilities like Honour the Chapter/Get Stuck in Ladz, and nearly any out-of-phase action as invalid and have it do nothing, because those abilities do not specifically exclaim every rule they have to invalidate in order to function?

It would not but that is off topic, so I will not go into it.

Like if I kill your Smashcaptain, can you Only In Death and get to fight? Well, you're not removing a slain model, interrupting an activation, fighting out of activation order, likely fighting for your second time that turn, etc..

But does it work? Of course it does, because you have a supplemental rule that explicitly says "You can do X" so you get to do X, even if it means you break every single rule in the BRB to do so.

That has specifics that say before you remove the model it gets to fight, but that is also off topic, so I will not go into it.

So if you have an ability that says, You can do X, then You can do X.

Yes, however...
You need to follow the other rules that it does not over-ride. The Passion does not over-ride the restrictions because it does not say that you an ignore the choose a unit restrictions.

Can be chosen twice does not = ignoring the rules for the fight phase. Since it does not say to ignore them, they are still very much in place.

Also can be chosen twice does not = Must be chosen. If it said must be chosen you might have had a case, but it doesn't, so your argument is not correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Can be chosen twice does not = ignoring the rules for the fight phase. Since it does not say to ignore them, they are still very much in place.

Also can be chosen twice does not = Must be chosen. If it said must be chosen you might have had a case, but it doesn't, so your argument is not correct.

If a unit CAN be chosen during the Fight phase, then it MUST be chosen during the Fight phase.

You'll see in the sidebar of the Fight phase in the BRB where it explains this: that you can't elect to pass if a unit can be chosen, can't elect to choose the unit at a different time/phase, and the fight phase does not end until all eligible units have been chosen.

So if it helps you, you can assume the wording of The Passion to be, "this unit MUST be chosen to fight twice in this phase."

I think the 2 and half pages of discussion makes this assertion debatable. Ultimately, it will be up to clarify their intent.

 alextroy wrote:
I think the 2 and half pages of discussion makes this assertion debatable. Ultimately, it will be up to clarify their intent.

To be fair, the only thing that seems to be being debated is whether or not "can" means "can" because the end result is of it meaning what it says is easily exploitable (and thus game-breaking because VotE), therefore RAI the ability needs to have been worded wrong or the Sisters become an unstoppable zerg rush, not that RAW the wording of the ability is actually unclear.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think the 2 and half pages of discussion makes this assertion debatable. Ultimately, it will be up to clarify their intent.

To be fair, the only thing that seems to be being debated is whether or not "can" means "can" because the end result is of it meaning what it says is easily exploitable (and thus game-breaking because VotE), therefore RAI the ability needs to have been worded wrong or the Sisters become an unstoppable zerg rush, not that RAW the wording of the ability is actually unclear.

Except that thats not really the case (being a game breaking unstoppable zerg rush) You're not going to be on priority speed, so you'll be going back and forth with your opponent. You won't get the bloody roses benefits at all. It's not as powerful as it sounds right of the bat, even though it IS a decent option. It's not like overwatch commonly murders all your squads, especially if you just charge with a transport first...

nekooni wrote:
Except that thats not really the case (being a game breaking unstoppable zerg rush) You're not going to be on priority speed, so you'll be going back and forth with your opponent. You won't get the bloody roses benefits at all. It's not as powerful as it sounds right of the bat, even though it IS a decent option. It's not like overwatch commonly murders all your squads, especially if you just charge with a transport first...

The more broken parts are:
- 12" move for your entire blob/bubble, regardless of enemy position, in the assault phase. No reduction in fire power or negatives to shooting that turn.
- Assault after fallback, rapid firing, etc, so on. Since you're not charging, you don't have to worry about the charge restrictions.
- Surround units quickly and easily (like horms, etc) with your multiple pile in and consolidates.

The charging and fighting twice part is nice, but the other implied shenanigans of not having to qualify for charging are the big part.

BRB 182 " No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase."

That is the only restriction this act of Faith overrules. Everything still applies.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Can be chosen twice does not = ignoring the rules for the fight phase. Since it does not say to ignore them, they are still very much in place.

Also can be chosen twice does not = Must be chosen. If it said must be chosen you might have had a case, but it doesn't, so your argument is not correct.

If a unit CAN be chosen during the Fight phase, then it MUST be chosen during the Fight phase.

Incorrect, because every unit on the table can be chosen for the fight phase. but you have restrictions you have to follow...

You'll see in the sidebar of the Fight phase in the BRB where it explains this: that you can't elect to pass if a unit can be chosen, can't elect to choose the unit at a different time/phase, and the fight phase does not end until all eligible units have been chosen.

So if it helps you, you can assume the wording of The Passion to be, "this unit MUST be chosen to fight twice in this phase."

And it has restrictions that your argument is ignoring for no reason. Do not ignore rules.

Fragile wrote:
BRB 182 " No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase."

That is the only restriction this act of Faith overrules. Everything still applies.

Exactly this. All other rules apply. The Passion only over-rides the restriction of only being able to be chosen once.

Bottom line is you can not choose a unit that is not within one inch of an enemy model. The Passion does not over-ride this restriction so PuppetSoul, your argument is not correct.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect, because every unit on the table can be chosen for the fight phase. but you have restrictions you have to follow...

Wrong.

Page 182, 1. Choose Unit to Fight With. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." This is the restriction that prevents non-combat models from entering the fight queue: they cannot be chosen to fight.

What is the wording of The Passion? "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." Okay, step 1 complete: we have an ability that explicitly tells us we can chosen the unit to fight with in the fight phase, so we will choose that unit to fight with in the fight phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

And it has restrictions that your argument is ignoring for no reason. Do not ignore rules.

Wrong.

We have an ability that explicitly tells us that we can choose the unit. Therefore, we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Exactly this. All other rules apply. The Passion only over-rides the restriction of only being able to be chosen once.

Wrong.

The Passion's ability explicitly states that you can choose to fight with it twice in that phase.

So you can choose to fight with it the first time, because The Passion says you can do it twice.
And then you can choose to fight with it in a following activation for a second time, because The Passion says you can do it twice.

If it said "can fight an additional time" instead, then it would have to respect the BRB's rules regarding being able to be chosen to fight with for the first fight, BUT NOT THE SECOND, because the ability would explicitly put it into the fight queue for the second fight.

The Passion explicitly puts the unit into the fight queue TWICE, because it uses the phrase "can be chosen to fight with", which enables both the first and second "choose a unit to fight with" regardless of whether or not it meets the conditions of the BRB to be chosen: The Passion says you can choose it, and Specific trumps General.

Looking at page 182, there is a Charge Phase, followed by the Fight Phase. The Passion only works in the Fight Phase. So any units that did not declare charges, the Passion will not work.

You could declare charges with all the units in question, even if they failed, all they would get from the Passion is a 3' pile in. That about it.

Since pg 182 says, "Any unit that charged or has a model within 1".."

But all of these units would be subject to Overwatch.

So no matter if the are "chosen to fight twice" they will never get the loophole move 12" Since CHARGE and FIGHT are separate phases

 zaahul wrote:
Looking at page 182, there is a Charge Phase, followed by the Fight Phase. The Passion only works in the Fight Phase. So any units that did not declare charges, the Passion will not work.

You could declare charges with all the units in question, even if they failed, all they would get from the Passion is a 3' pile in. That about it.

Since pg 182 says, "Any unit that charged or has a model within 1".."

But all of these units would be subject to Overwatch.

So no matter if the are "chosen to fight twice" they will never get the loophole move 12" Since CHARGE and FIGHT are separate phases

That makes no sense at all. A unit could have been charged by the enemy in the previous turn, you're saying that it wouldn't be eligible for the passion since it hasn't charged and hasn't been subject to overwatch?
Why would units only get a pile in but no consolidation?

And did you really just cut the quote from the BRB off before the word "chosen", which is the main reason why people think it's possible to choose any unit for the passion? Nice work.

1) Not wrong. Because "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." with the caveat that you can only select a given unit once. The Passion "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." means that you can choose them twice, and nothing over-rides the first clause that states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit" Has a unit that is under the effects of The Passion charged or are they within 1" of an enemy unit? if so you can choose them twice instead of once... Do not ignore the rules.

2) Not wrong. "we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways. " Citation needed. You need to follow all the rules. The passion does not over-ride "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." Do not ignore the rules.

3) Not wrong. That is not how English works... The Passion's ability explicitly states that you can choose to fight with it twice in that phase, but there is nothing that says the other fight phase rules does not apply. Do not ignore the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

1) Not wrong. Because "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." with the caveat that you can only select a given unit once. The Passion "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." means that you can choose them twice, and nothing over-rides the first clause that states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit" Has a unit that is under the effects of The Passion charged or are they within 1" of an enemy unit? if so you can choose them twice instead of once... Do not ignore the rules.

Does it say "instead of once"? No, no it does not. It explicitly says that if you pass this dice roll, you can have two of this thing. So can you have one of that thing? Yes, yes you can.

 DeathReaper wrote:

2) Not wrong. "we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways. " Citation needed. You need to follow all the rules. The passion does not over-ride "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." Do not ignore the rules.

Citation:

 DeathReaper wrote:

3) Not wrong. That is not how English works... The Passion's ability explicitly states that the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase, but there is nothing that says the other fight phase rules does not apply. Do not ignore the rules.

I think we're on like ten underlines already. I mockingly implied that it might take seventeen for some people to understand that it does what it says it does.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

1) Not wrong. Because "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." with the caveat that you can only select a given unit once. The Passion "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." means that you can choose them twice, and nothing over-rides the first clause that states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit" Has a unit that is under the effects of The Passion charged or are they within 1" of an enemy unit? if so you can choose them twice instead of once... Do not ignore the rules.

Does it say "instead of once"? No, no it does not. It explicitly says that if you pass this dice roll, you can have two of this thing. So can you have one of that thing? Yes, yes you can.

Yes you can have two, when normal unis can only have one...

So in a way it does say instead of once in a way. You can have one of that thing, IF you meet the other restrictions. there is nothing stating that you CAN ignore the restrictions, so you can not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

2) Not wrong. "we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways. " Citation needed. You need to follow all the rules. The passion does not over-ride "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." Do not ignore the rules.

Citation:

You cited nothing. Not surprising since there is nothing to over-ride the two other restrictions on when units can be chosen to fight.

 DeathReaper wrote:

3) Not wrong. That is not how English works... The Passion's ability explicitly states that the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase, but there is nothing that says the other fight phase rules does not apply. Do not ignore the rules.

I think we're on like ten underlines already. I mockingly implied that it might take seventeen for some people to understand that it does what it says it does.

That does not say what you think it does. "the selected unit can be chosen to fight" does not ignore the other two restrictions on selecting a unit to fight.

The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for fighting. So you can not ignore these rules. you have nothing to over-ride the Charge order and unit selection for fighting. "The Passion" rules only over-ride the only fight once rules. it does not over-ride anything else.

They do give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once limit

"Can" does not always mean you are allowed. A car typically has a speedometer that goes above 100mph.
That means the car "can" go 100mph, doesn't mean you are allowed to.

*edit to add further*
A unit "can" be chosen 2x
-implied- if it was allowed to be chosen to start with

A car "can go above 100mph
-implied- if you are on a road where the speed limit permits it.

kaotkbliss wrote:
"Can" does not always mean you are allowed. A car typically has a speedometer that goes above 100mph.
That means the car "can" go 100mph, doesn't mean you are allowed to.

*edit to add further*
A unit "can" be chosen 2x
-implied- if it was allowed to be chosen to start with

A car "can go above 100mph
-implied- if you are on a road where the speed limit permits it.

You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.

Does my car need a siren to go fast?

Ugh! Can we stop debating analogies and just wait for GW's Chapter Approved FAQ document and see if they will solve this debate?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes you can have two, when normal unis can only have one...

And "This unit can be selected to fight in this phase", when normal unis "This unit can be selected to fight if it made a charge move or is within 1" of an enemy unit".

 DeathReaper wrote:

You can have one of that thing, IF you meet the other restrictions.

And you are. You're meeting the restrictions as stated in the ability: used at Start of Fight phase, selected the unit, passed a faith test.

 DeathReaper wrote:

there is nothing stating that you CAN ignore the restrictions, so you can not.

There is nothing expressed or implied by the way that ability is written that suggests it gives a rat's about the BRB selection restrictions for choosing a unit. It says "You can do this because you did this." It has ALTERNATIVE conditions for allowing the unit to be chosen in the fight phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

You cited nothing. Not surprising since there is nothing to over-ride the two other restrictions on when units can be chosen to fight.

Eleven.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Not surprising

Hasn't been for a while now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The Passion's ability explicitly states that the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase

nekooni wrote:


You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.

Does my car need a siren to go fast?

Spoiler:

Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit

People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.

kaotkbliss wrote:

nekooni wrote:


You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.

Does my car need a siren to go fast?

Spoiler:

Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit

People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.

Presumably, being able to be selected more than once means you can be selected in the first place, given no other stated restrictions. (Also, for the record, The Passion has no other stated restrictions; it does not require that you can fight normally to be selected to fight.)

kaotkbliss wrote:

nekooni wrote:


You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.

Does my car need a siren to go fast?

Spoiler:

Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit

People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.

But the Passion doesn't state "more than once", it tells us that the unit can be chosen twice. Not "an additional time". Not "can fight twice".

But all of this is rather pointless. I wouldn't recommend playing it like that since i have to admit it doesn't look like that was intentional. But the only real solution to this will be an faq or errata by gw, as usual.

Go email GW, peeps. </stuck record>

It’s a Beta Codex. They want feedback more than ever. There’s every chance you can get this errata’d now. Or, ya know, debate car analogies...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Go email GW, peeps. </stuck record>

It’s a Beta Codex. They want feedback more than ever. There’s every chance you can get this errata’d now. Or, ya know, debate car analogies...

It's much more fun to debate cars than to play the "is so" "is not" "is so" ping-pong

With PuppetSoul's argument ignoring rules and have been thoroughly debunked we can put this to bed with what kaotkbliss said previously.

kaotkbliss wrote:

People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.

This is 100% correct.

They are giving permission to select a unit two times instead of one. That is the only permission given. It does not give permission to ignore the other two parts of the selection rules.

Anyone arguments stating otherwise are clearly ignoring the rules.

Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?

Hey guys, remember how it was so utterly clear in the Guard Codex that Baneblade's could "Take Cover"?

Yeah, me too.