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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?

It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Hey guys, remember how it was so utterly clear in the Guard Codex that Baneblade's could "Take Cover"?

Yeah, me too.

Not really helpful since that was really clear and they changed how that worked in an errata. This is unclear and will require a FAQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?

It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.

Well, yes, it does, actually. Because adding "instead of once" means you have to meet the criteria for being chosen in the first place, while the way the Passion is worded now doesn't.

Adding "instead of once" at the end is question begging: it assumes your conclusion is true, and that therefore adding words doesn't change the wording. But there is no reason to suspect your conclusion is true that I have been convinced by.

It says what it says. It says "a unit can be chosen to fight twice." I am not sure how that can be interpreted to mean anything else.

Can the unit be chosen to fight normally? No, it doesn't meet the conditions.
-Play The Passion-
Can the unit now be chosen to fight twice, regardless of the answer to the first question? Explicitly yes.

Yep, because they immediately grow 300-foot, long arms to start bashing their enemies

kaotkbliss wrote:
Yep, because they immediately grow 300-foot, long arms to start bashing their enemies

It doesn't actually say they can make attacks anywhere, just that they can be chosen to fight twice.Their melee weapons are out of range. Similarly, a Demolisher Leman Russ can be chosen to fire it's main gun twice, but will not roll any dice if it is out of range.

kaotkbliss wrote:
Yep, because they immediately grow 300 foot long arms to start bashing their enemies

It doesn't say immediately fight. It doesn't allow them to roll hit dice without meeting the conditions to declare a target. It doesn't cause them to fight twice without the opponent being able to activate a unit between them or interrupt (this last one is brutal).

What it does do, is put the unit into the Fight queue twice: because it now CAN be selected to fight twice ("can be selected" is how units enter the Fight queue), it now MUST be activated two separate times before that phase can end.

So if your unit didn't charge, it still swings after the charging units, but you can choose it to fight, and then your opponent chooses a unit to fight, and then you can choose it again (or a different unit, and then come back to it later; w/e).

Yes, this interaction, when splashed by The Passion, creates an extremely messy Fight queue (it would do so even if the units were required to be in combat to activate, and might actually be worse because there'd be units which "join" combat due to pile-ins or consolidations which would then be able to fight twice), which is exasperated by the stupid deathstar build-around that Sisters now requires to function.

Basically what I'm saying is that they need to get rid of Vessel of the Emperor's Will because its bad game design, and un-nerf the rest of the Acts at least a little after that because there'd be no reason to throttle them so hard.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?

It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.

Well, yes, it does, actually. Because adding "instead of once" means you have to meet the criteria for being chosen in the first place, while the way the Passion is worded now doesn't.

Incorrect. because the basic rules say that any given unit can only be chosen once. The only permission with The Passion is to over-ride that and allow them to be selected twice.

Adding "instead of once" at the end is question begging: it assumes your conclusion is true, and that therefore adding words doesn't change the wording. But there is no reason to suspect your conclusion is true that I have been convinced by.

Becausae your argument ignores the rules explanation as I have posted.

It says what it says. It says "a unit can be chosen to fight twice." I am not sure how that can be interpreted to mean anything else.

Exactly! It does not mean anything else. It can be chosen twice. Tell me what are the criteria for selecting a unit to fight with?

Can the unit be chosen to fight normally? No, it doesn't meet the conditions.
-Play The Passion-
Can the unit now be chosen to fight twice, regardless of the answer to the first question? Explicitly yes.

And your argument went off base. It now can be chosen to fight twice, but you still have no permission to over-ride the rules about charging or being within 1 inch of an enemy.

This is because it does not say something like [Regardless of them having made a charge move or being within 1 inch of an enemy model] it would need to say something like that to ignore the normal rules. it does not so it can not.

Only eligible units to choose to select during the fight phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.

blaktoof wrote:
Oy eligible units to choose to select during the night phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.

At least read the rules being discussed before you "contribute". What units are eligible targets of The Passion is really obvious and not disputed at all. Except by you apparently...

nekooni wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Oy eligible units to choose to select during the night phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.

At least read the rules being discussed before you "contribute". What units are eligible targets of The Passion is really obvious and not disputed at all. Except by you apparently...

And me.

If an unit is not within 1" or didn't charge it is not an eligible unit to select during the fight phase, nothing in the passion explicitly grants permission to do so.

Much like nothing in divine guidance grants explicit permission to shoot for units that may have advanced with heavy weapons.

They still need to meet the basic requirements.

The passion just let's an unit activate twice instead of once.

And divine guidance gives the unit a bonus to hit.

Neither of them have any wording stating they get to override other rules.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?

It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.

Well, yes, it does, actually. Because adding "instead of once" means you have to meet the criteria for being chosen in the first place, while the way the Passion is worded now doesn't.

Adding "instead of once" at the end is question begging: it assumes your conclusion is true, and that therefore adding words doesn't change the wording. But there is no reason to suspect your conclusion is true that I have been convinced by.

It says what it says. It says "a unit can be chosen to fight twice." I am not sure how that can be interpreted to mean anything else.

Can the unit be chosen to fight normally? No, it doesn't meet the conditions.
-Play The Passion-
Can the unit now be chosen to fight twice, regardless of the answer to the first question? Explicitly yes.

Except it cannot fight, so therefore cannot be chosen to fight. You're the one adding wording to the rules. This is much the same as the Tyranid Paroxysm vs Counter Offensive stratagem. The stratagem gives permission to interrupt, but the Paroxysm'ed unit still is not eligible. Just playing a stratagem/act of faith does not grant extra rules to overcome restrictions unless it says it can. You can play that AOF on a unit, it just cannot be chosen to fight if its not within 1" or charged that turn.

Specific rules override general rules.

If I get The Passion off with the successful 5+ after spending the faith point on a unit at the beginning of the fight phase, I then follow the Passion's rules:
This unit may be selected to fight twice.

You tell me I cannot select it, citing a rule from the Big Rule Book.

I then inform you that specific trumps general, and the Passion is a specific rule (Codex) which trumps the general rule you are citing that prevents it from working (Big Rule Book).

Citing a general rule as a reason a specific rule ceases to function is not how a permissive rulesset works.

Furthermore, the Paroxysm example actually supports my argument, illustrating neatly how a "specific rule" (a psychic power cast by a Tyranid psyker, with both the unit and caster found exclusively in the Tyranid codex) overrides a "general rule" (a stratagem available to everyone from the main rule book).

No, it clearly shows that even though the stratagem says you can do something, you must be eligible to do it or you cant.

You can keep adding rules onto the AOF, but it clearly overrides just the one restriction.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Oy eligible units to choose to select during the night phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.

At least read the rules being discussed before you "contribute". What units are eligible targets of The Passion is really obvious and not disputed at all. Except by you apparently...

And me.

Based on what rule do you think it's not allowed to use The Passion on a retributor squad in the back field? Mind you - whether or not it DOES something for that unit is disputed, sure. But if I want to use it on eg a character that's not in combat to then vessel it out to nearby units that are in combat, why would that not be allowed?

Blacktoof claimed I could not do that if the character isn't eligible to fight.

I am not adding anything to the passion.

It says, in one sentence, I may choose this unit to fight with twice.

In order to prevent me from choosing that unit, you either need a rule equally specific, or *more* specific. Because general cannot override specific and The Passion is fairly clear in its wording. The unit can be chosen. Twice, even.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am not adding anything to the passion.

It says, in one sentence, I may choose this unit to fight with twice.

In order to prevent me from choosing that unit, you either need a rule equally specific, or *more* specific. Because general cannot override specific and The Passion is fairly clear in its wording. The unit can be chosen. Twice, even.

You can choose that unit. If you do, nothing happens, since it cannot Fight that phase.


Your rule is more specific than the regular rule that states "this unit can be chosen once to fight each fight phase" which all units have by default in the BRB. Anything more than that interpretation is you adding rules.

Fragile wrote:

You can choose that unit. If you do, nothing happens, since it cannot Fight that phase.

The only thing in the BRB that allows units to Fight in the Fight phase is whether or not the unit can be chosen. The BRB has some qualifiers set up for when you can choose a unit (once per phase; within an inch or charged), but there are no other checks which prevent a unit from fighting once it is chosen.

The Passion gives you the ability to choose the unit.

So you ignore that the BRB says you shouldn't be able to chose the unit, because you have rules that supercede the BRB according to GW's flow chart that says that "you can choose the selected unit if you passed this test". It also has the word twice in there, which tells you how many times you're allowed to do it; otherwise you would be able to chose it an infinite number of times, because codex stratagem rules overrule the BRB and "you can chose this unit" would override "but only once" of the BRB; this is why Only in Death, Honour and Glory, Get Stuck in Ladz, etc. allow you to fight a second time, despite not being required to say that you can do so even if you've already fought with that unit this phase.

PuppetSoul wrote:

Fragile wrote:

You can choose that unit. If you do, nothing happens, since it cannot Fight that phase.

The only thing in the BRB that allows units to Fight in the Fight phase is whether or not the unit can be chosen. The BRB has some qualifiers set up for when you can choose a unit (once per phase; within an inch or charged), but there are no other checks which prevent a unit from fighting once it is chosen.

The Passion gives you the ability to choose the unit.

So you ignore that the BRB says you shouldn't be able to chose the unit, because you have rules that supercede the BRB according to GW's flow chart that says that "you can choose the selected unit if you passed this test". It also has the word twice in there, which tells you how many times you're allowed to do it; otherwise you would be able to chose it an infinite number of times, because codex stratagem rules overrule the BRB and "you can chose this unit" would override "but only once" of the BRB; this is why Only in Death, Honour and Glory, Get Stuck in Ladz, etc. allow you to fight a second time, despite not being required to say that you can do so even if you've already fought with that unit this phase.

Your entire argument is based on the "chosen" part of the rule. That is not what the rule is focused on. The exception the AOF grants, is being chosen TWICE. All the other rules apply.

Fragile wrote:

Your entire argument is based on the "chosen" part of the rule. That is not what the rule is focused on. The exception the AOF grants, is being chosen TWICE. All the other rules apply.

Can you prove the assertion that the "chosen" part of the rule we aren't supposed to focus on somehow doesn't matter?

The rule says what it says. There's no "focusing on the wrong part" - you either follow the rules or you don't. You can't just redact the word "chosen" because in your opinion that isn't the focus.

It is like saying I can shoot and still use smoke launchers, because the "can not shoot" isn't the part you focus on - that's the -1 to hit. You see how stupid that sounds?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hypothetical question:

If The Passion just said "If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with in that phase." would the rule do anything at all?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Hypothetical question:

If The Passion just said "If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with in that phase." would the rule do anything at all?

No, because the base rules already say you can choose a unit in the fight phase...

A rule stating a unit "Can" be chosen to fight twice hinges on them being eligible to be chosen in the first place. If it meant for them to be allowed to over-ride the basic rules about who you can choose it would say so. but since it does not, you have to follow the basic rules.

"the selected unit can be chosen to fight" does not ignore the other two restrictions on selecting a unit to fight. What are the criteria for selecting/choosing a unit to fight with in the fight phase? A: The unit needs to have charged or be within one inch of an enemy model. (There is nothing to over-ride this restriction in The Passion's rules).

The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for the fight phase. Therefore you can not ignore those rules. There is nothing over-riding the Charge order and unit selection for the fight phase. "The Passion" rules only over-ride the only fight once rules. They do not over-ride anything else. They only give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once restriction, and The Passion says you can fight twice. When normally a unit can only be chosen to fight once.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Hypothetical question:

If The Passion just said "If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with in that phase." would the rule do anything at all?

No, because the base rules already say you can choose a unit in the fight phase...

A rule stating a unit "Can" be chosen to fight twice hinges on them being eligible to be chosen in the first place. If it meant for them to be allowed to over-ride the basic rules about who you can choose it would say so. but since it does not, you have to follow the basic rules.

"the selected unit can be chosen to fight" does not ignore the other two restrictions on selecting a unit to fight. What are the criteria for selecting/choosing a unit to fight with in the fight phase? A: The unit needs to have charged or be within one inch of an enemy model. (There is nothing to over-ride this restriction in The Passion's rules).

The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for the fight phase. Therefore you can not ignore those rules. There is nothing over-riding the Charge order and unit selection for the fight phase. "The Passion" rules only over-ride the only fight once rules. They do not over-ride anything else. They only give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once restriction, and The Passion says you can fight twice. When normally a unit can only be chosen to fight once.

Wait, so you're honestly arguing that The Passion overrides no restrictions at all on whether or not the unit can be selected, despite explicitly saying the unit can be selected and being a more specific rule than anything you've cited there?

K then. I understand where the difficulty is, I think.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait, so you're honestly arguing that The Passion overrides no restrictions at all on whether or not the unit can be selected, despite explicitly saying the unit can be selected and being a more specific rule than anything you've cited there?

K then. I understand where the difficulty is, I think.

It absolutely overrides a restriction. That restriction is that the unit was already chosen to fight once. Just like the rule says. Every other unit that fought once cannot be selected again, but the AOF unit can...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
[

Wait, so you're honestly arguing that The Passion overrides no restrictions at all on whether or not the unit can be selected, despite explicitly saying the unit can be selected and being a more specific rule than anything you've cited there?

K then. I understand where the difficulty is, I think.

No. You clearly do not understand where the difficulty is. The Passion is "explicitly saying the unit can be selected [twice]". Tiny but important detail that your leaving out.

I am saying that The Passion ONLY over--rides the restriction on being able to be selected once. Actually I am not saying that, the RaW does.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

1) Can only be chosen once. "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase"
And
2) A unit needs to have charged or be withing 1" of an enemy to be chosen. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. "

The Passion over-rides #1, but not #2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

No. You clearly do not understand where the difficulty is. The Passion is "explicitly saying the unit can be selected [twice]". Tiny but important detail that your leaving out.

I am saying that The Passion ONLY over--rides the restriction on being able to be selected once. Actually I am not saying that, the RaW does.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

1) Can only be chosen once. "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase"
And
2) A unit needs to have charged or be withing 1" of an enemy to be chosen. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. "

The Passion over-rides #1, but not #2.

Looks like you're struggling with the word Twice, and how adverbs work.

Twice is an adverb. It tells you the number of times the thing occurs. What is the thing? "You can choose this unit to fight in the fight phase."

So the word Twice can be replaced with a second instance of the action occurring followed by the word again:

"You can choose this unit to fight in this phase, and you can choose this unit to fight in this phase again."

Does that make it clearer? The limitations for not being eligible to be chosen from the BRB would have to be reproduced in the ability in order for them to actually prevent The Passion from causing whatever unit passes the test to be able to fight twice that phase.

I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.

Your arguments ignore the rules.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.

Your arguments ignore the rules.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...

The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.

If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.

Your arguments ignore the rules.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...

The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.

That is not how that works mate. The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules...

If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.

Different wording, same result. Both units can be chosen twice if they meet the rest of the requirements.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.

Your arguments ignore the rules.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...

The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.

That is not how that works mate. The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules...

If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.

Different wording, same result. Both units can be chosen twice if they meet the rest of the requirements.

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.

That's the wording from the book, and that is what is being overridden by saying "can be chosen".

No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase.

As well as this, since it says "twice".

Khorne Berserkers only override the later due to the difference in wording.

Not that I think that this is intentional, though.

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.

Your arguments ignore the rules.

There are two rules we have to take into account.

The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...

The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.

That is not how that works mate. The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules...

If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.

Different wording, same result. Both units can be chosen twice if they meet the rest of the requirements.

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.

That's the wording from the book, and that is what is being overridden by saying "can be chosen".

No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase.

As well as this, since it says "twice".

Khorne Berserkers only override the later due to the difference in wording.

Not that I think that this is intentional, though.

Did the same person write the Sisters Beta as the Chaos Codex? If so, you could assume the use of different wording was intentional.