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 JohnnyHell wrote:
There are plenty of same effect / different wording rules in 8th. The syntax on the Penitent Engine in no way proves this to be anything other than permission to fight fwice instead of once, if you’re eligible to fight in the first place. Two different sentences can have the same meaning. Would that GW had decided on some standard wording for effects before going copy/paste crazy, but they didn’t, and for the most part we’ve coped ok for 18months.

I urge people to write to GW if they think this rule is supposed to grant special permission to fight even if ineligible; not only is this rule in a Beta Codex that they want feedback on, they may also add any errata to the ‘warranty period FAQ’, that is likely behind the usual two week cycle because of Christmas and New Year. They can tighten up the wording and problem solved, either in FAQ or isn’t the full Codex.

Believing this to work even when not within 1” seems to be fishing for 12” of free moment, IMHO (Pile In + Consolidate x2). Patently not the intent, nor the RAW as I read it.

It's not about thinking that it's supposed to give two activations even if normally you wouldn't be able to activate even once. Nor is it about finding loopholes to exploit. It's simply about having the rules saying what they're supposed to say, instead of what the RAW might say when taken literal.
As I've said already I'm playing it as "can fight an additional time, if it is able to in the first place". It's just that I don't think that's what the literal reading of the rule says.

We'll hopefully see clarification soon

Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.

This one time, I emailed GW and then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.

This one time, I emailed GW and then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!

"Email GW who then reply saying to stick to RaW" isn't an excuse for bad rules writing. I know it's been the christmas break but we're well overdue for the initial "two week" FAQ that was promised for new book releases.

Still finding it hilarious that their book of errata needs errata.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.

This one time, I emailed GW and then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!

Hey don’t polarise... play nice. ;-) Discussion is pretty much down to “yes it is / no it isn’t by now”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.

This one time, I emailed GW and then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!

"Email GW who then reply saying to stick to RaW" isn't an excuse for bad rules writing. I know it's been the christmas break but we're well overdue for the initial "two week" FAQ that was promised for new book releases.

Still finding it hilarious that their book of errata needs errata.

That you take an auto-reply as some catch-all prop-up for your opinions is... interesting.

They don’t send personal replies to the Hotline. They log them, feed them in and decide whether to FAQ if the Qs are indeed FA. For all we know they won’t errata anything until the legit Codex (which would be madness) but still, you’d have let them know.

DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.

Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.

This is how your posts read.

JohnnyHell wrote:I urge people to write to GW if they think this rule is supposed to grant special permission to fight even if ineligible;

RAW it currently does, but I don't expect any TO to allow it to be played that way because of what that enables.

I have written to GW to request that Vessel be changed to something else, enabling several of the Acts of Faith to be rebalanced to not suck: the resurrect one reviving d3 dead models on a 6+; the move one also adding 3" to advance and charge rolls; +1 to hit being changed to adding +1 shot to each ranged weapon profile.

JohnnyHell wrote:
Believing this to work even when not within 1” seems to be fishing for 12” of free moment, IMHO (Pile In + Consolidate x2). Patently not the intent, nor the RAW as I read it.

The more I've thumbed over the book, the more it seems like The Passion was RAI.

Sisters had several problems with their units in the index, for example Repentia having zero durability, dying to overwatch, being overcosted, not being a threat to Knights, and being generally weak in melee because they were never going to survive in melee to fight twice from the AoF.

So going into the Index, they get Bloody Rose, which makes them a threat to knights, aura stacking gives them a chance at durability, their point cost was lowered to where they'd be relatively cost-efficient if they had a legitimate save or a way to slingshot themselves into combat, and The Passion allows them to deny overwatch by getting close and then walking into combat.

It also fixes the problem that deepstriking Seraphim and such have with failing their charge rolls on the turn they land, because The Passion could be used to then walk the 9", end within 1" on the second activation, and then swing once.

The fact that it could be used to slingshot the entire army with Vessel seems to be something they underestimated the effect of, but let's be real here: Vessel costs 3 CP because The Passion exists and they were aware of that interaction, as there'd be no reason for it to cost more than 1 CP otherwise because the other Acts simply aren't good enough to ever justify spending 3 CP.

PuppetSoul wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.

Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.

This is how your posts read.

I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.

The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.

 DeathReaper wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.

Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.

This is how your posts read.

I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.

The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.

That's funny; I read the "can be chosen" phrase to mean 'can be chosen'. I suppose I could be wrong. How do you read it? Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.

 DeathReaper wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.

Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.

This is how your posts read.

I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.

The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.

Something to consider:

The Passion (an act of faith cast on a 5+ on 1d6) :

Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.

You seem to be taking "the selected unit" as the unit selected to fight. However, you use it at the beginning of the phase, before any unit is selected to fight. In this case, the "selected unit" would be the unit that you select to use the Act of Faith on. There is no statement limiting the unit to be selected to be one that is eligible to be chosen. If successful, you are told that the unit can be chosen to fight twice. Not an additional time, but chosen to fight twice. This is giving permission to to choose the unit during the fight phase, and fight twice, so that does circumvent the restriction you are claiming exists for it. When it's time to choose units to fight, you have one that's been told by a stratagem that it's eligible to fight even if it didn't charge or be within 1" of an enemy unit.

It seems to me that people are taking "the selected unit" to be a unit that's selected to fight. It isn't that at all, it's a unit selected to be getting the Act of Faith.

I certainly don't think this is what is intended, but the way it's written it's legal by RAW.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That's funny; I read the "can be chosen" phrase to mean 'can be chosen'. I suppose I could be wrong. How do you read it? Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.

They're reading it as having the same prepositional phrase "instead of" that Penitent Engine has, despite it not being there, and without understanding how that clause being present changes the sentence.

Draw two cards. (You draw two cards)
Draw two cards instead of one. (You don't draw a second card unless something else causes you to draw the first card)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.

Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.

This is how your posts read.

I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.

The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.

That's funny; I read the "can be chosen" phrase to mean 'can be chosen'.

That is correct, they "can be chosen twice" They are still subject to the restrictions of eligibility.

I suppose I could be wrong. How do you read it? Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.

Twice is the operative clause in that phrase 'can be chosen to fight with twice'... The Passion says: Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.

You cant just read 3 words in the rule and get an interpretation as that is not correct.

If you are not bringing adverbs into it you are ignoring parts of the rule, and that is a very disingenuous way to argue rules. and also proves your argument false since you ignore part of the rule.

 doctortom wrote:

You seem to be taking "the selected unit" as the unit selected to fight. However, you use it at the beginning of the phase, before any unit is selected to fight. In this case, the "selected unit" would be the unit that you select to use the Act of Faith on. There is no statement limiting the unit to be selected to be one that is eligible to be chosen. If successful, you are told that the unit can be chosen to fight twice. Not an additional time, but chosen to fight twice. This is giving permission to to choose the unit during the fight phase, and fight twice, so that does circumvent the restriction you are claiming exists for it. When it's time to choose units to fight, you have one that's been told by a stratagem that it's eligible to fight even if it didn't charge or be within 1" of an enemy unit.

It seems to me that people are taking "the selected unit" to be a unit that's selected to fight. It isn't that at all, it's a unit selected to be getting the Act of Faith.

I certainly don't think this is what is intended, but the way it's written it's legal by RAW.

fight twice or an additional time makes no difference. they really mean the same thing.

Either way the unit still can not be chosen to fight if it does not meet certain conditions.

A unit that did not charge and is not within 1 inch of an enemy cant be chosen at all so they are ineligible to be chosen twice.

The way it's written it is not legal by RAW to choose them as nothing over-rides the conditions of charging or being within 1 inch, nothing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

You seem to be taking "the selected unit" as the unit selected to fight. However, you use it at the beginning of the phase, before any unit is selected to fight. In this case, the "selected unit" would be the unit that you select to use the Act of Faith on. There is no statement limiting the unit to be selected to be one that is eligible to be chosen. If successful, you are told that the unit can be chosen to fight twice. Not an additional time, but chosen to fight twice. This is giving permission to to choose the unit during the fight phase, and fight twice, so that does circumvent the restriction you are claiming exists for it. When it's time to choose units to fight, you have one that's been told by a stratagem that it's eligible to fight even if it didn't charge or be within 1" of an enemy unit.

It seems to me that people are taking "the selected unit" to be a unit that's selected to fight. It isn't that at all, it's a unit selected to be getting the Act of Faith.

I certainly don't think this is what is intended, but the way it's written it's legal by RAW.

fight twice or an additional time makes no difference. they really mean the same thing.

Either way the unit still can not be chosen to fight if it does not meet certain conditions.

A unit that did not charge and is not within 1 inch of an enemy cant be chosen at all so they are ineligible to be chosen twice.

You are incorrect here. The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice. The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times. This bypasses the restrictions that you are claiming would apply; they apply normally for being able to choose a unit to fight, but we have a stratagem also telling us the unit is allowed to be chosen to fight. Twice.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The way it's written it is not legal by RAW to choose them as nothing over-rides the conditions of charging or being within 1 inch, nothing.

Again incorrect. You are blatantly ignoring that the stratagem specifically instructs you that the unit can be chosen (twice). Having a stratagem saying you can be chosen by definition means it's legal by RAW to choose them. You have already been given permission to choose them, so you do not look at those restrictions. You haven't been able to prove that nothing overrides the conditions to let something be chosen when we have a stratagem that specifically tells us a unit can be chosen. Your restrictions are bypassed and therefore irrelevant, making your statement incorrect. You have already been given permission to choose them.

Crucially, the Permission comes from a specific rule, as well, so the restriction to restrain the permission would have to be even more specific still.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
…….Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.

And there lies your problem. Your trying to clip sentences. Words mean things. And have a complete effect on Context. But you know that since your so grammar oriented and are just choosing to ignore it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Crucially, the Permission comes from a specific rule, as well, so the restriction to restrain the permission would have to be even more specific still.

Yes, specific permission to override 1 restriction. Still need the other 2 restrictions lifted to work.

Fragile wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
…….Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.

And there lies your problem. Your trying to clip sentences. Words mean things. And have a complete effect on Context. But you know that since your so grammar oriented and are just choosing to ignore it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Crucially, the Permission comes from a specific rule, as well, so the restriction to restrain the permission would have to be even more specific still.

Yes, specific permission to override 1 restriction. Still need the other 2 restrictions lifted to work.

The way it's written, you do get specific permission to choose the unit to fight. Remember, the Act of Faith is used at the beginning of the Fight Phase. That is before any unit is chosen to fight. "The selected unit" can be chosen to fight twice. "The selected unit" in this case is referring to the unit selected to have the Act of Faith; it is not a unit being chosen to fight. There are no restictions in the act of faith to limit which unit you select to have the act of faith. If successful, the unit can be chosen to fight twice. That means it has permission to be chosen to fight as we are told it can be chosen to fight. So, when it comes time to select units to fight, the unit operating with The Passion may be chosen because the stratagem has already given it permission to be chosen. You don't bother looking to see if it charged or is within 1" of an enemy because you already have permission from the act of faith cast at the start of the fight phase, before any units are selected to fight.

Again, I don't see this as what GW intended, but that is what they have given us by RAW. I would not be surprised to see a FAQ that states it can only be used on units that would be eligible to fight in the first place, or say fight one additional time; something to limit it to units that could normally fight in that phase. As it doesn't have that limitation, however, the stratagem as it exists now can be used on any Sisters unit, not just ones that are eligible to fight normally.

For the love of the Emperor, someone lock this tread until the FAQ comes out!

 doctortom wrote:


You are incorrect here.

The rules agree with me.

The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice.

Yes, and this permission only over-rides the only fight once permission, nothing else.

The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times.

If you can choose it in the first place, sure.

This bypasses the restrictions that you are claiming would apply; they apply normally for being able to choose a unit to fight, but we have a stratagem also telling us the unit is allowed to be chosen to fight. Twice.

Incorrect, it only over-rides the restriction on being able to fight once. It says nothing about the being within one inch. There is nothing there to suggest that it does over-ride the fight once or one inch restrictions.

doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The way it's written it is not legal by RAW to choose them as nothing over-rides the conditions of charging or being within 1 inch, nothing.

Again incorrect. You are blatantly ignoring that the stratagem specifically instructs you that the unit can be chosen (twice).

No I am not incorrect, I am not ignoring anything it is your argument that ignores the fact that there is nothing in The Passion to over-ride the fight once or one inch restrictions. Can fight twice ONLY over-rides the restriction about only being able to fight once.

The unit can be chosen twice (Instead of once) that is ALL this rule over-rides...

Having a stratagem saying you can be chosen by definition means it's legal by RAW to choose them.

If you follow all of the other rules, sure, your argument does not do that though.

You have already been given permission to choose them, so you do not look at those restrictions.

There is nothing in that permission that says anything about ignoring the one inch or charge restrictions.

You haven't been able to prove that nothing overrides the conditions to let something be chosen when we have a stratagem that specifically tells us a unit can be chosen. Your restrictions are bypassed and therefore irrelevant, making your statement incorrect. You have already been given permission to choose them.

Again, There is nothing in that permission that says anything about ignoring the one inch or charge restrictions.

Please do not ignore rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


You are incorrect here.

The rules agree with me.

The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice.

Yes, and this permission only over-rides the only fight once permission, nothing else.

The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times.

If you can choose it in the first place, sure.

This is where you're going wrong. I explained it, but you are ignoring what I said to cling to your preconceptions.

The Act of Faith is used at the beginning of the Fight Phase.

The Act of Faith is used before choosing any unit to fight.

The Passion says that "the selected unit" may "choose to fight twice"

Since no unit is chosen to fight yet, "the selected unit" is referring to the unit selected to put the Act of Faith on.

There are no restrictions in the Act of Faith as per having to be within 1" or having charged during the charge phase. You can use it on a Sisters unit that's on the other side of the board from a fight if you want to. You have not offered any proof that the stratagem is limited to units that could normally be selected to fight. Barring that, you have to accept that what it says for a target unit is true.

Now, if successful the stratagem says that you can choose to fight twice. It does not say you can fight an additional time. It says choose to fight.

When the time to select units comes around, you may select the unit that used the Passion precisely because you are told that it can be chosen to fight. That does not subject it to the limitations of having charged or being within 1". The stratagem, which says that you can be chosen to fight, is already active on the unit, which bypasses your limitations. You've been told the unit can be chosen to fight before getting to the step where those restrictions are listed. You have not provided any basis to support your claim that restrictions preventing a unit to be chosen to fight still apply to a unit that we are told has already been approved to be chosen to fight. Please provide some basis, as I have shown how the unit is pre-approved to be chosen to fight before any units are chosen to fight.

This is circular and should be binned by the mods until we get clarification from GW. Its just become a “oh yes it does/oh no it doesn’t” pantomime, and panto season is over for this year.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This is circular and should be binned by the mods until we get clarification from GW. Its just become a “oh yes it does/oh no it doesn’t” pantomime, and panto season is over for this year.

It's always pantsu season. Oh wait, you wrote panto.

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


You are incorrect here.

The rules agree with me.

The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice.

Yes, and this permission only over-rides the only fight once permission, nothing else.

The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times.

If you can choose it in the first place, sure.

This is where you're going wrong. I explained it, but you are ignoring what I said to cling to your preconceptions.

No I am not wrong. You have no rules basis. The claim that "the selected unit" may "choose to fight twice" Ignores the charge or 1 inch restrictions is false. there is nothing there that makes choose to fight twice over-ride the other restrictions. But your argument ignores the rules.

The Act of Faith is used at the beginning of the Fight Phase.

The Act of Faith is used before choosing any unit to fight.

The Passion says that "the selected unit" may "choose to fight twice"

Since no unit is chosen to fight yet, "the selected unit" is referring to the unit selected to put the Act of Faith on.

There are no restrictions in the Act of Faith as per having to be within 1" or having charged during the charge phase. You can use it on a Sisters unit that's on the other side of the board from a fight if you want to. You have not offered any proof that the stratagem is limited to units that could normally be selected to fight. Barring that, you have to accept that what it says for a target unit is true.

There does not need to be restrictions in the Act of Faith, as the base rules give those restrictions...

 DeathReaper wrote:
There does not need to be restrictions in the Act of Faith, as the base rules give those restrictions...

The BRB doesn't give restrictions, it gives permission to do something if you satisfy requirements. If you get permission to do the thing from somewhere else, you don't have to go back to the BRB and satisfy all of those requirements as well because you don't need to: you already have permission to do the thing.

And then for the Twice thing, I have a simple request: If you can read this, clap your hands twice.

Did you clap your hands the first time? Did you clap them again? Not a hard concept.

Now exchange out the clauses for their equivalent: if you rolled a 5+, you can choose this unit to fight twice.

Those requirements are the restrictions...

40k Rules wrote:1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another.

They give restrictions on what units are eligible to be chosen. They say "Choose Unit to Fight With" then give the restrictions on which units can be chosen.

So your argument is false puppetsoul.

Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata

nekooni wrote:
Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata

Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata

Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.

Yes. A real tragedy. Can we quit the posturing now?

 DeathReaper wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata

Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.

You know, I'm willing to let it go, but then you say stuff like this and it comes across as deliberately provocative.

Tell me what happens when the Passion lets me choose a unit, and the BRB says I can't because if its restrictions.

If your answer is "you can't" then you're ignoring the more specific rule (the Passion, which explicitly says you can choose a unit. Twice even.) in favor of a general rule. Which defeats the whole understanding of a permissive rulesset. I have permission to choose, and you need a more specific restriction to override the permission, the way the more specific permission overrode the general restriction...

REMOVED - BrookM

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata

Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.

You know, I'm willing to let it go, but then you say stuff like this and it comes across as deliberately provocative.

i am not being provocative. I am just not ignoring the rules like some are.

Tell me what happens when the Passion lets me choose a unit, and the BRB says I can't because if its restrictions.

The Passion lets you choose a unit twice... The Passion over-rides the rule about only choosing a unit once. That is the only thing that The passion trumps.

If your answer is "you can't" then you're ignoring the more specific rule (the Passion, which explicitly says you can choose a unit. Twice even.) in favor of a general rule. Which defeats the whole understanding of a permissive rulesset.

Incorrect. The answer is that The Passion lets you choose a unit twice. it does not over-ride the fact that you need to be within 1 inch or have charged for them to be eligible to be chosen in the first place... We have permission to over-ride the only choose once rule, not the 1 inch or charged part of the rule.

I have permission to choose, and you need a more specific restriction to override the permission, the way the more specific permission overrode the general restriction...

REMOVED - BrookM

You have permission to choose twice... you dont have permission to over-ride the 1 inch or have charged for them to be eligible to be chosen in the first place rules. This is what you are not understanding. The rules are on my side, I have shown you a convincing argument, you are just ignoring it and instead are attacking me as a person calling me "REMOVED - BrookM" just to get the thread locked. Stop. your side doen not have a leg to stand on Please read the whole rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Those requirements are the restrictions...

40k Rules wrote:1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another.

They give restrictions on what units are eligible to be chosen. They say "Choose Unit to Fight With" then give the restrictions on which units can be chosen.

So your argument is false puppetsoul.

What you are claiming is irrelevant. The stratagem is used at the beginning of the fight phase, before anything is chosen. The stratagem gives you permission to be chosen; it states that you can be chosen twice. The stratagem gives you the permission to be chosen, so when you go to choose a unit those restrictions don't apply to the unit with The Passion, since it already has been given permission to be chosen. It lets you choose the unit twice, not just once. You still haven't shown how you can apply restrictions to choose something that has already been given permission to be chosen. You want to treat it as "you have permission...just kidding, you don't have permission". The limitations you are quoting are not referred to in The Passion; it does not say "eligible unit", "a unit selected to fight may fight an additional time" or anything to indicate the restrictions, therefore it's a blanket permission. As it is written, it gives you permission to be chosen the first time as well as the second time, before you get to looking at the restrictions. You don't get to apply those restrictions retroactively the way it is written.

Now, they probably intend for it to only override the rule about only choosing a unit once, but the way it is written it ends up overriding the other restrictions by dint of it giving you permission to fight before you get to the point of choosing which units will fight. I would imagine that this is going to get FAQ'd to clarify it that way, or to clarify it that it can be put on any unit if they actually meant that instead. A

 DeathReaper wrote:
i am not being provocative.

How can you genuinely believe that first sentence if you follow it up with this? Wow.

I am just not ignoring the rules like some are.

That's just amazing.