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i came in a situation were a solitaire slew Guilliman and i rolled high enough to resurrect him at the end of the fight phase ...then the enemy eldar used a stratagem were his solitaire could gfight again at the end of the fight phase... the question is can the solitaire attack guilliman again? witch one goes first? the resurrection or the stratagem?

SIKAMIKA wrote:
i came in a situation were a solitaire slew Guilliman and i rolled high enough to resurrect him at the end of the fight phase ...then the enemy eldar used a stratagem were his solitaire could gfight again at the end of the fight phase... the question is can the solitaire attack guilliman again? witch one goes first? the resurrection or the stratagem?

BRB Page 178, Sequencing sidebar.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

SIKAMIKA wrote:
i came in a situation were a solitaire slew Guilliman and i rolled high enough to resurrect him at the end of the fight phase ...then the enemy eldar used a stratagem were his solitaire could gfight again at the end of the fight phase... the question is can the solitaire attack guilliman again? witch one goes first? the resurrection or the stratagem?

BRB Page 178, Sequencing sidebar.

ty very much good sir! so it depends whos players turn is then!

If its simultaneous sequencing if the strategem can be activated during the end of phase you can wait till after he resurrects then apply the strategem.

SIKAMIKA wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

SIKAMIKA wrote:
i came in a situation were a solitaire slew Guilliman and i rolled high enough to resurrect him at the end of the fight phase ...then the enemy eldar used a stratagem were his solitaire could gfight again at the end of the fight phase... the question is can the solitaire attack guilliman again? witch one goes first? the resurrection or the stratagem?

BRB Page 178, Sequencing sidebar.

ty very much good sir! so it depends whos players turn is then!

Correct.

If it's Guilliman's turn then he can choose to resurrect last making it impossible to Fight him. If it is the Solitaire's turn then they can force Guilliman to setup first.

End of the phase, is just that the end. Its over so using a stratagem like that depending on the wording would then continue the phase and after that he comes back.

Lungpickle wrote:
End of the phase, is just that the end. Its over so using a stratagem like that depending on the wording would then continue the phase and after that he comes back.

But they both say end of the phase. So they can both happen, it just comes down to sequencing.

Lungpickle wrote:
End of the phase, is just that the end. Its over so using a stratagem like that depending on the wording would then continue the phase and after that he comes back.

Surely it remains at end of phase till play progresses to the start of the next phase.

If a strat can be used during the end of phase it can be used at any point from the end of phase starting till the begining of the next phase.

Where does it say you cannot add things once things start resolving (provided they can be added to the end of phase)

U02dah4 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
End of the phase, is just that the end. Its over so using a stratagem like that depending on the wording would then continue the phase and after that he comes back.

Surely it remains at end of phase till play progresses to the start of the next phase.

If a strat can be used during the end of phase it can be used at any point from the end of phase starting till the begining of the next phase.

Where does it say you cannot add things once things start resolving (provided they can be added to the end of phase)

It doesn't.

All sequencing says is that the active player chooses the order of simultaneous effects.

All effects that happen "at the end" of a phase are simultaneous, therefore the active player chooses the order.

While the rules don't say explicitly that all optional abilities that may be declared for the same moment of play have to be declared before you start resolving them, logically it is impossible for the active player to choose the order unless they are all declared in advance.

It's all a bit grey on exactly how to implement it though, and will require some collaboration between the players in a game to smoothly work through.

Do you use the Strat at end of phase, or do you use the Strat during the phase, and it affects what happens at end of phase?

End of phase - the question is more start of end of phase or during end of phase

I also dont follow that logic you can sequence fine with only half you then adjust that sequence as they get annnouned

Adcb at once works

Ab resolve a then cd get announced sequence dcb also works

There are clear examples of things that trigger part way through resolution of end of phase effects. E.g. unit fights again kills a SM near an ancient which then gets up and fights/shoots again before it gets removed it wasn't in the initial sequence. Or a strat that lets you respond to being targetted you couldn't activate the strat till the fighting again model targeted you.
.

That's different though. Those things aren't activated "at the end" of the phase, they are reacting to specific events.

All end of phase events are simultaneous though, so the rules are clear that the active play determines the order.

They are not at the end of phase edfexts but they can occur during it and wern't in the original sequence of end of phase effects showing it can alter.

U02dah4 wrote:
They are not at the end of phase edfexts but they can occur during it and wern't in the original sequence of end of phase effects showing it can alter.

They aren't simultaneous though, so you aren't altering the order of the original sequenced end of phase effects. These are effects unrelated to that sequence that happen to occur during it.

They are altering the original sequence because they add to it

Abc
Becomes a then xybcz

How is that different to adding another end of fight phase strategem after a has resolved.

We get a bdc or a bcd

The original sequence isnt altered just added to

U02dah4 wrote:
They are altering the original sequence because they add to it

Abc
Becomes a then xybcz

How is that different to adding another end of fight phase strategem after a has resolved.

We get a bdc or a bcd

The original sequence isnt altered just added to

Because a sequence ONLY contains effects that are resolving simultaneously. Other effects that come up while resolving one item of the sequence are not part of that sequence.

That is how it is different.

So the new strategem comes up its not part of that sequence it then needs placing somewhere in that sequence

Or are you advocateing none synchronous resolution of abilities within a sequence

U02dah4 wrote:
So the new strategem comes up its not part of that sequence it then needs placing somewhere in that sequence

Or are you advocateing none synchronous resolution of abilities within a sequence

I'm saying that the game definition of sequencing is very specific, and you're confusing matters by adding in a literal definition of a sequence.

You have to use a sequece or things dont work. Thats litterally what sequencing is. Putting different things in order. Change the scenario slightly my interpretation works yours breaks down.

Guiliman is alive at end of phase. a smash captain fights again and kills giuliman who rolls to stand up again. He stands up at the end of phase but wearepart way through

What happens

Well with a sequence you add him in no problems

Without...

U02dah4 wrote:
You have to use a sequece or things dont work. Thats litterally what sequencing is. Putting different things in order. Change the scenario slightly my interpretation works yours breaks down.

Guiliman is alive at end of phase. a smash captain fights again and kills giuliman who rolls to stand up again. He stands up at the end of phase but wearepart way through

What happens

Well with a sequence you add him in no problems

Without...

Sequencing rules only come in when the game tries to do things at the same time. So they have to have the same trigger, for example "end of phase". When they have the same trigger, the active player chooses the order. If in working through that sequence an opportunity to use another ability comes up with a different trigger (maybe you want to command re-roll a dice) you can do so immediately and then continue resolving the original sequence.

What you have brought up in this post though is a situation the rules do not give us the information to clearly answer, and so we have to use some common sense. Guilliman was still alive when we started resolving our end of phase abilities. My interpretation would be that the active player would be allowe to insert Guilliman's resurrection into the order of remaining end of phase abilities (if there are more to resolve) wherever they wish.

I do beleive you just conceeded that it works for involuntary abilities in a mannir equivalent to useing a sequence.

So if it works for involuntary abilities what rule stops you useing voluntary abilities the same way

U02dah4 wrote:
I do beleive you just conceeded that it works for involuntary abilities in a mannir equivalent to useing a sequence.

So if it works for involuntary abilities what rule stops you useing voluntary abilities the same way

Honestly I'm struggling understand what your issue is with anything I'm saying...

Sequencing happens when effects have the same trigger. An event that has a different trigger (eg Ancient) that comes up while resolving that sequence is not part of those sequenced events and so the active player can't delay it, it happens immediately.

Yes, if a new event comes up while resolving a sequence that has the same trigger as the sequence that is being resolved, then it gets murky.

Especially as there are some people that are adamant that "end of phase" is not included within the phase - with that interpretation Guilliman's resurrection straight up breaks if it's triggered after you've already started resolving end of phase effects, as you aren't in a phase to find the end of!