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I am not liking the mono-pose models that seem to be the new way of things. Sure, they look pretty good if you only want one squad. But as soon as you go beyond that you get duplicates. You used to get duplicate parts but you could change the arms etc. to compensate for that.

I'm glad I have plenty of spare Cadians. I could see an updated model line being highly affected by this problem.

I just need them to make Primaris Charecters in other armors. Captains, Librarians, Chaplains and LT's in Inceptor armor would be a nice start. Then in Gravis Armor.

Here's a few things that I think ticks GW:
1. 2nd hand sales of unused bits - this is noticeable on their approach to intercessor/hellblaster kits. They purposely made it so that no main component goes unused, thereby forcing sales on their kits. Similarly, the plasma weaponry in hellblaster kit is designed so that you don't have 5x of each weapon you can equip them.
2. 3rd party conversion bits - because GW is too lazy to sculpt cool new things for old models. Better to push a whole new line and eventually phase out older models.

The RIGHT way to go about this is to return to their bit sales. This way, they can sell the main product and also sell upgrade sprues, or "booster sprues" to boost their sales.

 skchsan wrote:
Here's a few things that I think ticks GW:
1. 2nd hand sales of unused bits - this is noticeable on their approach to intercessor/hellblaster kits. They purposely made it so that no main component goes unused, thereby forcing sales on their kits. Similarly, the plasma weaponry in hellblaster kit is designed so that you don't have 5x of each weapon you can equip them.
2. 3rd party conversion bits - because GW is too lazy to sculpt cool new things for old models. Better to push a whole new line and eventually phase out older models.

The RIGHT way to go about this is to return to their bit sales. This way, they can sell the main product and also sell upgrade sprues, or "booster sprues" to boost their sales.

But wait, schkan, if GW sold an "imperial weapons upgrade pack", an "eldar weapons upgrade pack", a "drukhari weapons upgrade pack" and a few "marine shoulderpad upgrade packs" then we could have fewer sprues in the basic kits, pay approximately the same prices overall but with more customizability, and Games Workshop would make more money overall from more people buying duplicate sprues!

That would be....bad...?

 Kcalehc wrote:
Perhaps it's the slippery slope to Power Levels. Kits come with fewer and fewer options, until most units have so few, that PL suddenly is a reasonable way to make your army as any customization changes it so little.

I actually have suspected for a while that this indeed might be what's going on.

the_scotsman wrote:
...if GW sold an "imperial weapons upgrade pack"...

Well you can buy packs of 5x melta or plasma guns, which is pretty much the same thing. Or there is FW, which has a decent selection of upgrades. Mostly Imperial though.

In total agreement with the OP here. GW's games customisation was one of their biggest selling points. It's like everything has become homogenised- You must assemble your models this way. You must paint your models this way (the Cult of Duncan can feth off), it's like nobody wants to experiment any more. The worst offenders of this are the Death Guard. Their HQs have no options. Chaos Lords and Sorcerers lack T5 and DR, simply because GW does not sell a Nurgle lord kit. PMs have curious weapon options due to how the models must go together.
The utter worst of the worst in all of this are the Blightlord Termies- There are only 5 bodies, which are all very distinct. Including the ETB kit there are only 8 Blightlord models. It is impossible to build a unit of 10 without repeating oneself.

But to bring this back to no options- There are no power fists or chainfists? Why? A staple of Termies for years is now unusable by Nurgle Termies (unless you're a Chaos Lord curiously...) are absent simply because the kit lacks them. Palanquins- The iconic daemonic mount of Nurgle champions is gone. Despite there being a Palanquin model and it is as easy as putting a new character on it. This is fine for SM biker Captains, but not for DG.

No longer is it "your dudes"- every HQ looks the same, and this is just awful. I love to convert stuff, and I still do. Don't get me wrong stuff is still convertible but there is only so much you can do with the sheer lack of options. It doesn't matter that the guy below has a massive bell, he's still the same Lord of Contagion with Plaguereaper- just like more or less every other LoC out there.


I get that there are options that fall by the wayside over the years, this is far from my first rodeo but the extent that 8th has gutted some core options is just baffling, well, it's not. I know exactly why but it doesn't stop it from being truly asinine.

the_scotsman wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Here's a few things that I think ticks GW:
1. 2nd hand sales of unused bits - this is noticeable on their approach to intercessor/hellblaster kits. They purposely made it so that no main component goes unused, thereby forcing sales on their kits. Similarly, the plasma weaponry in hellblaster kit is designed so that you don't have 5x of each weapon you can equip them.
2. 3rd party conversion bits - because GW is too lazy to sculpt cool new things for old models. Better to push a whole new line and eventually phase out older models.

The RIGHT way to go about this is to return to their bit sales. This way, they can sell the main product and also sell upgrade sprues, or "booster sprues" to boost their sales.

But wait, schkan, if GW sold an "imperial weapons upgrade pack", an "eldar weapons upgrade pack", a "drukhari weapons upgrade pack" and a few "marine shoulderpad upgrade packs" then we could have fewer sprues in the basic kits, pay approximately the same prices overall but with more customizability, and Games Workshop would make more money overall from more people buying duplicate sprues!

That would be....bad...?

No no no no... You sell the basic kit, with plethora of bits EXCEPT the ones you need. This way, everyone is forced to buy the regular box AND THEN the upgrade booster sprues to spiff up their unit. All the should pads in the main box should come blank, and you can free hand your own chapter symbol OR buy upgrade shoulder pad for each chapters (WHICH THEY DID! LIKE SERIOUSLY GEEDUBS! WASSAMATTAYOO)

Wolf Priests do not have a kit and have rules.

It isn't hard to convert one, but it doesn't change the simple fact that I cannot go online and buy a Wolf Priest kit.

Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are the same way. Essentially just a captain with different rules, but still does not have a kit.

Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

Bharring wrote:
Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

It's also really funny when you start looking at archons.

Because you have to pick the source of your wargear (index or codex) you cannot take one wargear item that is index only and pair it with an option that is codex only.

For example, an Archon with a Blaster & a Venom Blade is actually illegal, because the Venom Blade is not a choice offered in the index. While this only saves you 2 points from Huskblade -> Venom Blade, it is 2 points, and any DE player at 2000 points with a blaster + venom blade is cheating.

Also, honorary mention to conscript/infantry squad/veterans, where only the color job tells the difference!

 Marmatag wrote:
Wolf Priests do not have a kit and have rules.

It isn't hard to convert one, but it doesn't change the simple fact that I cannot go online and buy a Wolf Priest kit.

Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are the same way. Essentially just a captain with different rules, but still does not have a kit.

To be honest all the standard SW HQs don't have an official model, there's just the Iron Priest and the Rune Priest. Wolf Lords, battle leaders and wolf priest don't have an official model because GW pushed the standard SM commander as the regular SW HQ that can be customized in order to assemble the desired HQ. You can also use Ulrik as a standard wolf priest. But you're right, it's super easy to convert one, just kitbash the crozium arcanum using the power axe and the eagle icon. Actually with the new rules he can just have a power fist, so a perfectly legal WYSIWYG wolf priest is no more than a standard grey hunter with power fist.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What is worse when they have a unit clearly in model form but not in the codex.

I have an autarch with war jump generator, and howling banshee mask.

I wasn't going to mention that one :(

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

It's also really funny when you start looking at archons.

Because you have to pick the source of your wargear (index or codex) you cannot take one wargear item that is index only and pair it with an option that is codex only.

For example, an Archon with a Blaster & a Venom Blade is actually illegal, because the Venom Blade is not a choice offered in the index. While this only saves you 2 points from Huskblade -> Venom Blade, it is 2 points, and any DE player at 2000 points with a blaster + venom blade is cheating.

I don't think that's what the rules quite say. You may choose to use the index version for its wargear options, if the warhead has rules in the codex these replace the index options. Looks to me like VB + Blaster is fine.

 Trickstick wrote:
The model that comes to mind is the Tempestor Prime. The way that the kit is made, the gun arm is also the one that holds the almost-mandatory command rod (+1 order). This means that you can't have the rod and a gun, which is reflected in the unit entry. The rules are at the mercy of the model design, which I feel often doesn't fully consider the rules implications of design decisions.

The thing is, though, the Tempestor Prime model can't have any melee weapons other then a basic knife (his coat prevents you from attaching a Power Fist or Sword arm). So if they're going by the model then he should also have no melee options.

It just makes no sense.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What is worse when they have a unit clearly in model form but not in the codex.

I have an autarch with war jump generator, and howling banshee mask.

I wasn't going to mention that one :(

Its a real shame cause both those models are awesome and gorgeous.

 vipoid wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The model that comes to mind is the Tempestor Prime. The way that the kit is made, the gun arm is also the one that holds the almost-mandatory command rod (+1 order). This means that you can't have the rod and a gun, which is reflected in the unit entry. The rules are at the mercy of the model design, which I feel often doesn't fully consider the rules implications of design decisions.

The thing is, though, the Tempestor Prime model can't have any melee weapons other then a basic knife (his coat prevents you from attaching a Power Fist or Sword arm). So if they're going by the model then he should also have no melee options.

It just makes no sense.

It's almost as though GW is incredibly inconsistent.

 vipoid wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The model that comes to mind is the Tempestor Prime. The way that the kit is made, the gun arm is also the one that holds the almost-mandatory command rod (+1 order). This means that you can't have the rod and a gun, which is reflected in the unit entry. The rules are at the mercy of the model design, which I feel often doesn't fully consider the rules implications of design decisions.

The thing is, though, the Tempestor Prime model can't have any melee weapons other then a basic knife (his coat prevents you from attaching a Power Fist or Sword arm). So if they're going by the model then he should also have no melee options.

It just makes no sense.

Nothing requires your Tempestor Prime to wear the coat... also swapping out his knife hand for a Power/Chain sword isn't terribly hard - and those pieces are in the kit. But yes, desiring the powerfist, and the coat, is a significant modelling challenge.

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

It's also really funny when you start looking at archons.

Because you have to pick the source of your wargear (index or codex) you cannot take one wargear item that is index only and pair it with an option that is codex only.

For example, an Archon with a Blaster & a Venom Blade is actually illegal, because the Venom Blade is not a choice offered in the index. While this only saves you 2 points from Huskblade -> Venom Blade, it is 2 points, and any DE player at 2000 points with a blaster + venom blade is cheating.

I don't think that's what the rules quite say. You may choose to use the index version for its wargear options, if the warhead has rules in the codex these replace the index options. Looks to me like VB + Blaster is fine.

Follow the flow chart. You pick index OR codex for wargear. It is indeed illegal.

 Marmatag wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

It's also really funny when you start looking at archons.

Because you have to pick the source of your wargear (index or codex) you cannot take one wargear item that is index only and pair it with an option that is codex only.

For example, an Archon with a Blaster & a Venom Blade is actually illegal, because the Venom Blade is not a choice offered in the index. While this only saves you 2 points from Huskblade -> Venom Blade, it is 2 points, and any DE player at 2000 points with a blaster + venom blade is cheating.

I don't think that's what the rules quite say. You may choose to use the index version for its wargear options, if the warhead has rules in the codex these replace the index options. Looks to me like VB + Blaster is fine.

Follow the flow chart. You pick index OR codex for wargear. It is indeed illegal.

Although this is quitee off topic from the OP, as far as wargear goes, its [index] AND [codex].

Scratch that. It indeed is [index] OR [codex]

I'd probably just ignore the index as much as possible now. You know they are probably going to drop support at some point. No point converting a load of rough riders or power axe sergeants now.

 Trickstick wrote:
I'd probably just ignore the index as much as possible now. You know they are probably going to drop support at some point. No point converting a load of rough riders or power axe sergeants now.

I think it's going to be a huge wrench in the face of hobbyists if they outright remove index options. The LEAST GW can do is offer official sanctioned legacy/conversion models as optional book that TOs can use.

The answer is simple. GW is incompetent. They fck up litterly everything no matter how small. No exaggeration. Everything they do, from making models, the rules, the fluff and beyond, there is always something in there thats going to make people facepalm. No matter how great it is, theres always atleast one tiny thing that just makes me see GW as it is- A bunch of talented has-been's who also all happen to be idiots.

123ply wrote:
The answer is simple. GW is incompetent. They fck up litterly everything no matter how small. No exaggeration. Everything they do, from making models, the rules, the fluff and beyond, there is always something in there thats going to make people facepalm. No matter how great it is, theres always atleast one tiny thing that just makes me see GW as it is- A bunch of talented has-been's who also all happen to be idiots.

Rather than being so directly offensive, I think its rather the growth of the company.

I feel that GW was founded by bunch of gamers who got together and "hey, we should totally make a sci-fi tabletop wargame!". At its inception and before the Mattwardian Favorithic Age, the game and the company was run by people who were passionate about what they do (Hell, even Matt Ward was exteremly passionate about what he does - make Kaldor Draigo & GK uber-duber-super-OP). It's unfortunate to see the obvious trend of 'please the investors' approach (which, don't get me wrong, there nothing wrong with that) without a single regard for what this whole company was built upon - fellow hobbyists. It seems like the company and majority of the employees are a typical day-in-day out type (again, nothing wrong with that) who are only there to collect paychecks and no passion for the game at all.

 Marmatag wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

It's also really funny when you start looking at archons.

Because you have to pick the source of your wargear (index or codex) you cannot take one wargear item that is index only and pair it with an option that is codex only.

For example, an Archon with a Blaster & a Venom Blade is actually illegal, because the Venom Blade is not a choice offered in the index. While this only saves you 2 points from Huskblade -> Venom Blade, it is 2 points, and any DE player at 2000 points with a blaster + venom blade is cheating.

I don't think that's what the rules quite say. You may choose to use the index version for its wargear options, if the warhead has rules in the codex these replace the index options. Looks to me like VB + Blaster is fine.

Follow the flow chart. You pick index OR codex for wargear. It is indeed illegal.

I quoted the flowchart. I disagree with your interpretation.

123ply wrote:
The answer is simple. GW is incompetent. They fck up litterly everything no matter how small. No exaggeration. Everything they do, from making models, the rules, the fluff and beyond, there is always something in there thats going to make people facepalm. No matter how great it is, theres always atleast one tiny thing that just makes me see GW as it is- A bunch of talented has-been's who also all happen to be idiots.

I love hyperbole as much as the next fifteen billion angry men, but this is taking it just a teensy bit far. Sure, GW (like every other company on the face of the planet) makes mistakes... but a lot of the time, the difference between viewing something as 'mistake' and 'success' is 'Do I personally like it?'

And if what you're constantly seeing as proof of failure is 'one tiny thing', it's maybe worth reviewing whether the issue is GW's level of ability or just your expectations.

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, DE HQs have weapons options that are only in the relevant troops' boxes, not the HQ kits themselves.

I think GW was experimenting there.

It's also really funny when you start looking at archons.

Because you have to pick the source of your wargear (index or codex) you cannot take one wargear item that is index only and pair it with an option that is codex only.

For example, an Archon with a Blaster & a Venom Blade is actually illegal, because the Venom Blade is not a choice offered in the index. While this only saves you 2 points from Huskblade -> Venom Blade, it is 2 points, and any DE player at 2000 points with a blaster + venom blade is cheating.

I don't think that's what the rules quite say. You may choose to use the index version for its wargear options, if the warhead has rules in the codex these replace the index options. Looks to me like VB + Blaster is fine.

Follow the flow chart. You pick index OR codex for wargear. It is indeed illegal.

I quoted the flowchart. I disagree with your interpretation.

This is a months-old debate on the RAW of that last bubble - you can choose to use the wargear as it appears on the index or as it appears in the codex, but you have to follow rules for codex if there is same entry within the wargear. So, you can choose to use a plasmagun as it appears on the index, hut you would use the codex point value.

 skchsan wrote:

123ply wrote:
The answer is simple. GW is incompetent. They fck up litterly everything no matter how small. No exaggeration. Everything they do, from making models, the rules, the fluff and beyond, there is always something in there thats going to make people facepalm. No matter how great it is, theres always atleast one tiny thing that just makes me see GW as it is- A bunch of talented has-been's who also all happen to be idiots.

Rather than being so directly offensive, I think its rather the growth of the company.

I feel that GW was founded by bunch of gamers who got together and "hey, we should totally make a sci-fi tabletop wargame!". At its inception and before the Mattwardian Favorithic Age, the game and the company was run by people who were passionate about what they do (Hell, even Matt Ward was exteremly passionate about what he does - make Kaldor Draigo & GK uber-duber-super-OP). It's unfortunate to see the obvious trend of 'please the investors' approach (which, don't get me wrong, there nothing wrong with that) without a single regard for what this whole company was built upon - fellow hobbyists. It seems like the company and majority of the employees are a typical day-in-day out type (again, nothing wrong with that) who are only there to collect paychecks and no passion for the game at all.

So why can't all armies be super? They clearly can do armies with very powerful options and builds. Why not give to all factions? Sales would go up, balance would be closer, because when everything is OP, nothing really is. Players happy, bank account happy. Changes would be easier to implement, because with everything "OP" people would be more willing to experiment. Soup wouldn't be needed, because varity and sales could be achived by having multiple options from a single book. The problems we have now of the how to nerf the ravellan with IG, without killing IG or Knights mono lists, would be gone.

"If everyone is super, then noone is".

You can make Space Marines so super-elite that 1 Marine can kill 10 Guardsmen. Super!

Then you can make Guardsmen so super numerous that you can field 100 Guardsmen for every marine. Super!

Now, Marines aren't super anymore.