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 Bosskelot wrote:
From talking to people in my local area it's the opposite; AoS is far more unbalanced than 40k and has several armies that are borderline unplayable even at casual play whereas it's really only until you get to actual competitive stuff that certain 40k armies start to struggle (GK being the exception). Hell, I've crushed Eldar and Dark Eldar lists with Necrons in local games but I've had numerous AoS playing friends tell me that things like Overlords are just impossible to do anything with except lose in 2.0

Considering the similarities between both systems, do we need another ends times? I’ve been hearing rumors of a 40k “end times”. That would be something eh?

We already had the end times, with the invalidation of a large chunk of models and moving towards a more cookie cutter "everyone has a re-roll 1's aura" etc format.

Fluff wise, we had a large time skip and everything went crazy. The Imperium has had technological advancement, sounds like end times to me...

momerathe wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Well there is probably a correlation between under selling units and under powered units. People are less likely to spend money if a unit is over pointed. So figuring out motivation becomes difficult.

My impression of CA is that it was mostly about internal balance within codexes, not between them. I think it will result in more different units seeing play, which is nice, but it won't do much else.

If that is the case than they screwed up with the Ork codex again as well The Stompa went from collecting dust on the shelf, to getting repainted, repaired and made to look pretty.....only to be put right back on the shelf when GW did basically nothing to address the fact that its about 350-400pts over priced. Same thing for the Orkanauts, they are slightly more competitive but you won't see people rushing out to buy them. And lets not forget the noble Burna Boy who hasn't been relevant since.....what 6th? Burna Wagon? And even than it was only viable if you took a 160pt transport Oooo and lets not forget Nob Bikers and Bikers in general in the Ork codex, still relegated to display cases or collecting dust on a shelf.

Orktober was an intense marketing campaign that technically spanned 3 months and it led to a bunch of new Ork Vehicles that are rather lackluster at best and a lot of nothing as far as most of the codex was concerned, the biggest thing Orktober did was change our lists from 90% boyz to 40% boyz. CA is the same thing just for everyone else.

SemperMortis, were you really expecting points changes to a book which had been out for, what, 6 weeks before CA was released?

Especially when they were apparently writing CA 6-8 months ago?

 Dysartes wrote:
SemperMortis, were you really expecting points changes to a book which had been out for, what, 6 weeks before CA was released?

Especially when they were apparently writing CA 6-8 months ago?

if it takes 6-8 months to write CA how long does it take to write a complete codex? I am guessing about the same time. And are the rules writers forced into a code of silence, locked in separate dungeons spread across England so that none of them can possibly talk to one another? Or god forbid they have an Editor to review the rules before they are printed? The point being is that CA and the Ork codex came out at about the same time so if the point of CA was to have internal balance you would expect that to be the point in the Ork codex. Also, how fething hard is it to print CA? really? I mean its about 12 pages of points changes and that is about it, and clearly they weren't even using tournament results or local results to influence the points changes otherwise Knights/IG and Smashcaptains would have gotten price hikes instead of the soup of all soup lists actually getting cheaper.

It's almost like making physical codexes be the basis of your rules is a dumb idea, or something.

It would be so much easier if they could just update an electronic codex once a month as they see fit, but no, they are locked into literally Victorian Era thinking.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like making physical codexes be the basis of your rules is a dumb idea, or something.

It would be so much easier if they could just update an electronic codex once a month as they see fit, but no, they are locked into literally Victorian Era thinking.

it would also be a lot easier if they didn't fill 3/4ths of the codex with fluff/pictures/art and just printed separate stuff for that. Of course that would mean they couldn't charge $50 for a book with 30 pages. My guess is that they stick to that format because they don't want their artists and fluff writers to go elsewhere.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
SemperMortis, were you really expecting points changes to a book which had been out for, what, 6 weeks before CA was released?

Especially when they were apparently writing CA 6-8 months ago?

if it takes 6-8 months to write CA how long does it take to write a complete codex? I am guessing about the same time. And are the rules writers forced into a code of silence, locked in separate dungeons spread across England so that none of them can possibly talk to one another? Or god forbid they have an Editor to review the rules before they are printed? The point being is that CA and the Ork codex came out at about the same time so if the point of CA was to have internal balance you would expect that to be the point in the Ork codex. Also, how fething hard is it to print CA? really? I mean its about 12 pages of points changes and that is about it, and clearly they weren't even using tournament results or local results to influence the points changes otherwise Knights/IG and Smashcaptains would have gotten price hikes instead of the soup of all soup lists actually getting cheaper.

Again, following what has been said in this thread, the 6-8 months means it was being written before Imperial Knights came out... so how could any points from the book that hadn't been released, following reports on gameplay in the wild, have possibly occurred?

I didn't think the lead time was so extreme - I was thinking 3 months or so, not 6-8 (though taking feedback during that time, of course). I'm not sure if Smashcaptains were an issue that far back, though.

 Dysartes wrote:



Again, following what has been said in this thread, the 6-8 months means it was being written before Imperial Knights came out... so how could any points from the book that hadn't been released, following reports on gameplay in the wild, have possibly occurred?

I didn't think the lead time was so extreme - I was thinking 3 months or so, not 6-8 (though taking feedback during that time, of course). I'm not sure if Smashcaptains were an issue that far back, though.

It's not that they weren't testing points up until 3 months ago. It's that taking new codexes, getting them to playtesters, getting enough games in, coming up with changes and then facilitating discussions takes a lot more time than might be allowed for the cutoff to get the book ready for QA, language translation, and then print.

With no cutoffs or strict time sensitive demand the FAQs are the most nimble as was shown when they went for a CP nerf, which is a reasonable indicator that they see the issues, but perhaps not might as you want them to see it.

Not that I have any faith in GW to begin with, but if they don't in the "two week errata" up the cost of Knights at the very least I will be disappointed. Smash Captains got hard nerfed with the CP Regen change, and now Knights (specifically the 3++ Castellan with Cawls Wrath) are the problem

Games Workshop revenues went up by 25% in 2018 but their stock is flat. When they collapse into themselves in a few years it will be because they increased sales by milking more money out of their blindly loyal fans but did not effectively broaden their customer base.

Revenue doesn't mean you're doing things smart anyways, just that your customers don't care enough for it to affect you.

 Tokhuah wrote:
Games Workshop revenues went up by 25% in 2018 but their stock is flat. When they collapse into themselves in a few years it will be because they increased sales by milking more money out of their blindly loyal fans but did not effectively broaden their customer base.

There it is! Oh how I missed you, silly internet comments that don't understand how stocks work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
Revenue doesn't mean you're doing things smart anyways, just that your customers don't care enough for it to affect you.

lolwat

And greatly increased revenue means what, now?

It's true. I've worked for a lot of companies that were profitable and yet did a ton of things wrong/never learned to do things right. The two are not actually related despite appearing to be one and the same. You can do everything wrong and still make money, it doesn't mean that you're suddenly doing everything right.

 Tokhuah wrote:
Games Workshop revenues went up by 25% in 2018 but their stock is flat. When they collapse into themselves in a few years it will be because they increased sales by milking more money out of their blindly loyal fans but did not effectively broaden their customer base.

^^soooo this.
I walked into the local geedub store the other day
And pretty creepy store grot hit me with a salesman's pitch like this 'are you a painter or collector or gamer?
When i told him that i was lookin to join a league he said that a new one would start in January using a CA with no points but that would involve buying painting new armies from start collecting boxes... When i said that i have 2 unbuilt eldar start collecting boxes aleady and 4000points of painted orks plus imperial amd marine armies in need of finishing his patience was nearly worn. I explained that i still had bad feelings about my orc fantasy army in a box now and never coming back and he refelexively tried to defend AoS as a more historically accurate battle game. With that my patience was worn. He was clearly pushing me to starting a new army in a new game system whether AoS or 8th ed 40k ... He was not intetested in talking collecting and supporting old hobby. ... So the 100euro or so that he might expect me to spend should i join his league also dried up and blew away. I know small potatoes but not as if gw hadnt made thousands on me over the years already. And gw could do worse than having happy old dudes like myself soeaking openly about how well gw supports my old dudes but instead it is plastic trash by design. Ick. Anyways i would have picked up CA and some new ork buggy kits to do that league. Now i will just keep my 40k stuff in the boxes alongside the fantasy stuff and read the CA leaks. Yeah. Changing cover to make it more interactive and more a presence on the battlefield is a start but still targeting the unit in cover leaves some issues about abstracted LoS that ... Well meh. And the open play no points units in the CA book. Meh. And the ridiculous point tweaking alongside the fact of primaris marines aka stormcaste astartes simply feels like gw wants me to relive the rejection following the demise of fantasy at every opportunity ... Yeah. No. Not feeling it and yes. Utter fail. Now rather than my word of mouth recommending and selling new kits and my old models being given as gifts for friends to start new armies all of that stops and turns upside down ... As is there is no way that i can recommend this hobby and this company to anyone except as a stock investment for the near term next 1 to 3 years. Actually i started recommending gw as an investment pre 8th and about now am turning neutral for 2019.

Yeah, they do this for some reason at my gw... the wholemidea is that you buy an army from the store and in a month you come back and do a tournament with it.... it's basically a really long version of the magic the gathering tournaments where you buy a booster box and use the cards inside that to make a deck on the day. It's a money making scheme that's kinda dumb.... but at least it makes sense with mtg.... with 40k, why would I need a new army if I already have a few with years of experience I might want yo use in a tournament? And why would I want to spend that much money in such a short amount of time?

 lolman1c wrote:
Yeah, they do this for some reason at my gw... the wholemidea is that you buy an army from the store and in a month you come back and do a tournament with it.... it's basically a really long version of the magic the gathering tournaments where you buy a booster box and use the cards inside that to make a deck on the day. It's a money making scheme that's kinda dumb.... but at least it makes sense with mtg.... with 40k, why would I need a new army if I already have a few with years of experience I might want yo use in a tournament? And why would I want to spend that much money in such a short amount of time?

It's as stupid as targeting kids over adults, because kids are so good at saving up money to afford £50 kits and totes don't blow it on sweets drinks and other tat.

"I've worked for a lot of companies that were profitable and yet did a ton of things wrong/never learned to do things right."
Said every employee ever.

Even "your" coworkers (note: "your" in this case is the reader, not singling out the poster).

The idea that you're not doing anything wrong is stupid. Whatever your skillset, look at your work from 5 years ago. Look at how bad it is. How could you be so stupid? How could anyone make such terrible mistakes?

Side note: if you look at your work from 5 years ago, and it looks good, then you've learned nothing in 5 years. You're no better than you were 5 years ago. So you'll probably be no better in 5 years. I hope I never work with you.

Gw stock was the most succesfull one during 2017. The ceo mentioned in a report that such growth was not sustainable (lo and behold it's not; anyway Stock price is a bad indicator of how well a givne company is doing because it' based on "public" (investor) perception as much as fact and profit. Profit and revenue are far more reliable markers to check the health of a company.

Also is it that weird a GW store wants to sell you models, primarily? They don't make a profit of organising leagues.an FLGS might do it just to draw people in. Or a club but they are usually non-profit.

Stock does suggest how investors - people who actually have money on the line, which are usually (not always) people who have done well with money on the line in the past - expect the company to behave.

Which would you trust more: the gesalt vision of where GW is going from those here on DakkaDakka, or money-focused investors in a non-high-profile company (GW is not a household name)?

Neither are super reliable, but I'd trust the stock market's predictions more than random postsers. But flat doesn't mean "about to implode" - it actually means the exact opposite. It means there *isn't* a general concern that it's about to fall/fail/go under/etc.

So flat stock suggests that GW is likely to neither grow nor contract outside the range the economy itself does.

I agree with your conclusion. A flat stock does suggest that, but it's not a very reliable metric for predicting the future. Only how much faith investors have in the current course/news.

Also let's get back to CA.

hobojebus wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Yeah, they do this for some reason at my gw... the wholemidea is that you buy an army from the store and in a month you come back and do a tournament with it.... it's basically a really long version of the magic the gathering tournaments where you buy a booster box and use the cards inside that to make a deck on the day. It's a money making scheme that's kinda dumb.... but at least it makes sense with mtg.... with 40k, why would I need a new army if I already have a few with years of experience I might want yo use in a tournament? And why would I want to spend that much money in such a short amount of time?

It's as stupid as targeting kids over adults, because kids are so good at saving up money to afford £50 kits and totes don't blow it on sweets drinks and other tat.

No, they don't want you to buy a starter box. They want you to get an entire 1-2k point army.

 lolman1c wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Yeah, they do this for some reason at my gw... the wholemidea is that you buy an army from the store and in a month you come back and do a tournament with it.... it's basically a really long version of the magic the gathering tournaments where you buy a booster box and use the cards inside that to make a deck on the day. It's a money making scheme that's kinda dumb.... but at least it makes sense with mtg.... with 40k, why would I need a new army if I already have a few with years of experience I might want yo use in a tournament? And why would I want to spend that much money in such a short amount of time?

It's as stupid as targeting kids over adults, because kids are so good at saving up money to afford £50 kits and totes don't blow it on sweets drinks and other tat.

No, they don't want you to buy a starter box. They want you to get an entire 1-2k point army.

No I got that mate I was talking about kirbys change of direction in 2004 and drawing a parallel, my fault for not being clear.

Both are unrealistic, sure some can drop £500-700 at short notice but most people have mortgages, car payments and other bills to cover.

hobojebus wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Yeah, they do this for some reason at my gw... the wholemidea is that you buy an army from the store and in a month you come back and do a tournament with it.... it's basically a really long version of the magic the gathering tournaments where you buy a booster box and use the cards inside that to make a deck on the day. It's a money making scheme that's kinda dumb.... but at least it makes sense with mtg.... with 40k, why would I need a new army if I already have a few with years of experience I might want yo use in a tournament? And why would I want to spend that much money in such a short amount of time?

It's as stupid as targeting kids over adults, because kids are so good at saving up money to afford £50 kits and totes don't blow it on sweets drinks and other tat.

No, they don't want you to buy a starter box. They want you to get an entire 1-2k point army.

No I got that mate I was talking about kirbys change of direction in 2004 and drawing a parallel, my fault for not being clear.

Both are unrealistic, sure some can drop £500-700 at short notice but most people have mortgages, car payments and other bills to cover.

I've said it before and I will say it again. If GW lowered their prices I could easily see myself buying a 2nd or even a 3rd army because I love the models. But as it currently stands, I will not buy a 2nd or 3rd army because I don't want to drop a thousand dollars or more, acquiring a stand alone 2,000pt army. I most assuredly bought most of my army second hand, but lets take a look at my standard 40k 2,000 Ork army if I had bought everything brand new from GW.

HQ:
Warboss x1 = $20
Weirdboy x2 = $44.5

Troops:
Boyz x 90 = $261

Elites:
Kommandos x 15 = $135
Tankbustas x 20 = $180


Heavy Support:
Mek Gunz x 6 = $276
BoneBreaker x2 = $148

Transports:
Trukk x2 = $74.5

Grand Total: $1,139

And that isn't even a third of my ork army. If GW prices were a third lower I would probably have invested in a second army which means I would probably have spent more overall, not including the required books and paints necessary for a 2nd army. Ohh well, that is why we have recasters and 3rd party vendors....not to mention my friend and his amazing 3D printer which is producing me 3 Grot tanks a day atm

SemperMortis wrote:


I've said it before and I will say it again. If GW lowered their prices I could easily see myself buying a 2nd or even a 3rd army because I love the models. But as it currently stands, I will not buy a 2nd or 3rd army because I don't want to drop a thousand dollars or more, acquiring a stand alone 2,000pt army. I most assuredly bought most of my army second hand, but lets take a look at my standard 40k 2,000 Ork army if I had bought everything brand new from GW.

HQ:
Warboss x1 = $20
Weirdboy x2 = $44.5

Troops:
Boyz x 90 = $261

Elites:
Kommandos x 15 = $135
Tankbustas x 20 = $180


Heavy Support:
Mek Gunz x 6 = $276
BoneBreaker x2 = $148

Transports:
Trukk x2 = $74.5

Grand Total: $1,139

And that isn't even a third of my ork army. If GW prices were a third lower I would probably have invested in a second army which means I would probably have spent more overall, not including the required books and paints necessary for a 2nd army. Ohh well, that is why we have recasters and 3rd party vendors....not to mention my friend and his amazing 3D printer which is producing me 3 Grot tanks a day atm

GW sells more product for same money.
Guy who champions recasting says he'd spend more on incremental sales.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


GW sells more product for same money.
Guy who champions recasting says he'd spend more on incremental sales.

Yeah, I would spend more on GW than on recasters if the prices were better. Why spend $45 on 5 Kommandos when I can just buy them online for $30 or even less?

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


GW sells more product for same money.
Guy who champions recasting says he'd spend more on incremental sales.

Yeah, I would spend more on GW than on recasters if the prices were better. Why spend $45 on 5 Kommandos when I can just buy them online for $30 or even less?

Because recasters don't keep stores open or run a magazine or do *anything* else that promotes the hobby.

It's easy to be cheap when you steal.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


GW sells more product for same money.
Guy who champions recasting says he'd spend more on incremental sales.

Yeah, I would spend more on GW than on recasters if the prices were better. Why spend $45 on 5 Kommandos when I can just buy them online for $30 or even less?

Because recasters don't keep stores open or run a magazine or do *anything* else that promotes the hobby.

It's easy to be cheap when you steal.

"Don't keep stores open" Cool, get rid of the stores, give profit motive back to the privately opened stores. Bam there goes a massive hit to your overhead. "Don't run a magazine" You mean the magazine that is a paid monthly subscription? How much is that again? $90 for 12 magazines? How much is a weekday NYT subscription? $5 a week? so $130 for 260 papers........so $.50 a paper compared to $7.50 for a single magazine. Of course you have to factor in what is in each magazine/paper and the skills of the writer....I am sure GW employs better journalists/writers than the NYTs does.

GW does a lot of stuff a recaster doesn't have to, but it has been my experience that GW delivers a better quality product than recasters as well. So lets meet in the middle here. How much does it really cost to develop a cool model? not to much since we can literally do it now ourselves and print them ourselves using 3D printers. So really lets take that out of hte cost because its so cheap. How much is plastic? I can buy 3 huge reels for $20 which will build me 50+ Grot Tanks that I helped design. It took me about 8 hours to design the Grot tanks I am using, so 8 hours and lets say I am worth $200 an hour, so $1620 is the entire overhead for producing 50+ grot tanks....what does that break down to? $32.4 a tank...or almost the same as Forgeworld does them....and that is paying myself the equivalent of $416,000 a year

So how about we stop paying the handful of model designers $416,000 a year and reduce it to something like 100,000 a year which brings the cost of the model down to about $10

Yes I know I made numbers up out of thin air and I am well aware there are a lot more over head costs associated with running a business, I am merely pointing out how ridiculous GW's prices are and how they could easily entire a larger fan base and encourage their current fan base to stop buying recasted models AND to buy MORE models by simply reducing the massive price of the game.

SemperMortis wrote:
How much does it really cost to develop a cool model? not to much since we can literally do it now ourselves and print them ourselves using 3D printers. So really lets take that out of hte cost because its so cheap.

I don't think you understand how the miniature design process works.