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I was just gifted a box of Khorne Bloodletters and my CSM army is Black Legion. I know daemons are in the codex but they aren't on the CSM list on Battlescribe.

So my question is how do i use them in my army?

Thanks

gaza4 wrote:
I was just gifted a box of Khorne Bloodletters and my CSM army is Black Legion. I know daemons are in the codex but they aren't on the CSM list on Battlescribe.

So my question is how do i use them in my army?

Thanks

Army building is all about keywords, not what book they are in. You can't have Bloodletters in a <LEGION> or HERETIC ASTARTES detachment, because they don't have those keywords. That's why they don't show in Battlescribe.

While they do share the CHAOS keyword, you can't use that as the keyword to tie a detachment together as per the Battle Brothers rule. You wouldn't really want to anyway, as you'd lose access to your Legion abilities.

You have 2 options for using them in your army though. Neither of them are particularly good I'm afraid, unless you pick up more daemons:

1. Summoning
Summoning means you set points aside at the beginning of the game and then during the game make summoning rules. This rule is the reason they included Daemon units in the codex. Summoned units are not part of your army, so don't need to be in a detachment. You don't even choose the unit or what equipment it has until the point in the game where you make the summoning roll. There are restrictions and randomness to summoning that makes it a not very attractive option.

2. Put them in a separate Daemons detachment
This option is not very attractive at the moment, because the only detachment you could use is the Auxiliary Support and this will cost you CP. A single unit of Bloodletters isn't really good enough on its own to warrant paying a CP. However, if you later on pick up two more units of them and a couple of cheap Daemon HQs you'll be able to take a pretty cheap Daemon Battalion, and that IS quite good.

You have to take them in a detachment or summon them. Honestly I find it just silly, but that's how they decided it.

Wayniac wrote:
You have to take them in a detachment or summon them. Honestly I find it just silly, but that's how they decided it.

This.

Basic CSMs have a lack of non-HQ characters (unless you do have that Chaos Lord that simply stands around doing nothing than handing out reroll 1s) so the better option is to invest in a cheap Herald and have a Patrol of them.

It really bothers me that they can't take the basic troops without ruining the keywords. I get restricting the greaters and such to Daemon armies only, but the regular line troops should have had a special addendum where they could be included and not count against the keyword.

Sometimes I want to take a unit of daemons and don't want to throw in a Patrol, you know?

Wayniac wrote:
It really bothers me that they can't take the basic troops without ruining the keywords. I get restricting the greaters and such to Daemon armies only, but the regular line troops should have had a special addendum where they could be included and not count against the keyword.

Sometimes I want to take a unit of daemons and don't want to throw in a Patrol, you know?

But they're a different army. Same reason I can't just put Guardsmen in my Custodes Battalion.

Wayniac wrote:
It really bothers me that they can't take the basic troops without ruining the keywords. I get restricting the greaters and such to Daemon armies only, but the regular line troops should have had a special addendum where they could be included and not count against the keyword.

Sometimes I want to take a unit of daemons and don't want to throw in a Patrol, you know?

That's why CSM need some more random support characters. I feel a little spoiled with DG with having loads of Elite characters that can take a lot of the heavy lifting of summoning from the HQs, plus have a larger range of where they can be dropped.. Your HQs will usually be advancing up supporting the rest of the force (or ranging out far ahead if it is the usual DP). You don't want them to stop to summon a unit of Daemons, which is where the problem lies.

have 20 of them here from the old daemon battleforce box, summoning is "meh" but looks occasionally useful, personally would get another box of them, stick two on larger bases as heralds and have 38 of the buggers split into three units for a battalion detachment, or pick a daemon character model or two you like and run them that way (have a triplet of juggernaughts and a juggernaught command model here, plus skull taker, not that they have been used yet)

If you want bloodletters, spend that extra 56 for a Herald of Khorne and run it up with your Bloodletters. It gives them rerolled charges and +1 strength, so its SUPER worth the investment. Bloodletters are still one of the best melee units in the game, and greatly compliment Khorne armies.

ok so i have a daemon prince already, he can be used as the HQ for a Patrol detachment for now.

but do the Bloodletters still have to be summoned in by the Daemon Prince? Codex says thay have the Daemonic Ritual rule or is that just an optional way of bringing them in as reinforcements?

gaza4 wrote:
ok so i have a daemon prince already, he can be used as the HQ for a Patrol detachment for now.

but do the Bloodletters still have to be summoned in by the Daemon Prince? Codex says thay have the Daemonic Ritual rule or is that just an optional way of bringing them in as reinforcements?

The DP will do, but remember he will lose all of his legion benefits as he won't be part of the same detachment.

Any CHARACTER with Daemonic Ritual can summon them. Not just a DP, not just a HQ. Both TS, R+H and DG all have CHARACTERS that are not HQs.

You are better off keeping the Daemon Prince with the Chaos Space Marines. He will let both your marines AND daemons reroll 1s to hit, that way. Just use that cheap herald unit for a patrol for your daemons, that way you don't have to summon them in, which is a fairly awful rule.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Any CHARACTER with Daemonic Ritual can summon them. Not just a DP, not just a HQ. Both TS, R+H and DG all have CHARACTERS that are not HQs.

You have that backwards. The unit being sumoned has the DAEMONIC RITUAL rule, not the summoner.

The other option is that if the rest of the army is KHORNE, you can put the bloodletters in as they share the god's faction keyword - but then you don't get the Legion traits, access to strategies / relics etc.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Any CHARACTER with Daemonic Ritual can summon them. Not just a DP, not just a HQ. Both TS, R+H and DG all have CHARACTERS that are not HQs.

You have that backwards. The unit being sumoned has the DAEMONIC RITUAL rule, not the summoner.

Ah yes, should've looked in the DG codex sitting to the left of me on this sofa rather than going from memory. That would have been too easy though...

 Stux wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It really bothers me that they can't take the basic troops without ruining the keywords. I get restricting the greaters and such to Daemon armies only, but the regular line troops should have had a special addendum where they could be included and not count against the keyword.

Sometimes I want to take a unit of daemons and don't want to throw in a Patrol, you know?

But they're a different army. Same reason I can't just put Guardsmen in my Custodes Battalion.

Basic daemons are in the CSM codex. Same for some but not all of the tzeentch daemons in Thousand Sons. So they're part of the codex, but ruin detachment bonuses. So you might as well take them as a Chaos Daemons detachment and also get those detachment bonuses and assorted other options.

It's really weird and backwards, and magnified by cultists and daemon engines NOT screwing things up.

Voss wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It really bothers me that they can't take the basic troops without ruining the keywords. I get restricting the greaters and such to Daemon armies only, but the regular line troops should have had a special addendum where they could be included and not count against the keyword.

Sometimes I want to take a unit of daemons and don't want to throw in a Patrol, you know?

But they're a different army. Same reason I can't just put Guardsmen in my Custodes Battalion.

Basic daemons are in the CSM codex. Same for some but not all of the tzeentch daemons in Thousand Sons. So they're part of the codex, but ruin detachment bonuses. So you might as well take them as a Chaos Daemons detachment and also get those detachment bonuses and assorted other options.

It's really weird and backwards, and magnified by cultists and daemon engines NOT screwing things up.

The only reason they are in the codex is because of summoning. It's GW actually doing you a favour and giving you the rules you need without making you buy two books. Especially as Codex CSM came out before Codex Daemons.

Voss wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It really bothers me that they can't take the basic troops without ruining the keywords. I get restricting the greaters and such to Daemon armies only, but the regular line troops should have had a special addendum where they could be included and not count against the keyword.

Sometimes I want to take a unit of daemons and don't want to throw in a Patrol, you know?

But they're a different army. Same reason I can't just put Guardsmen in my Custodes Battalion.

Basic daemons are in the CSM codex. Same for some but not all of the tzeentch daemons in Thousand Sons. So they're part of the codex, but ruin detachment bonuses. So you might as well take them as a Chaos Daemons detachment and also get those detachment bonuses and assorted other options.

It's really weird and backwards, and magnified by cultists and daemon engines NOT screwing things up.

They're in the codex so you don't need another codex for the 'Daemonic Ritual' rule for the 'basic' daemon varieties. The fluff says they're not a part of the various legions and the rules reflect that.

Ok so what i'm gathering here is that if i wanna run just one unit of daemons in my csm army i need to reserve points and summon them

OR

i can run them as a seperate detachment and put them straight down on the table

gaza4 wrote:
Ok so what i'm gathering here is that if i wanna run just one unit of daemons in my csm army i need to reserve points and summon them

OR

i can run them as a seperate detachment and put them straight down on the table

Correct. The former means you have to have a Khorne character remain stationary, and then roll high enough on the summoning roll to summon a minimum unit (which is pretty likely to be fair). The latter will cost you a Command Point.

gaza4 wrote:
Ok so what i'm gathering here is that if i wanna run just one unit of daemons in my csm army i need to reserve points and summon them

OR

i can run them as a seperate detachment and put them straight down on the table

Pretty much. If you run them as a separate detachment you either have to pay 1 CP to bring an Auxiliary, or take a Khorne character (a Herald for example) and then take a Patrol. The Patrol would probably be the better way so you aren't spending a CP.

There is another option, although it will make you lose any Black Legion Trait. Mark every thing <Khorne> and you can use KHORNE as you tie-in keyword for the detachment.
But again, everything will lose Black Legion trait, even though they can still be BL for stratagems, Character auras, etc.

But my vote is to take a BL Khorne Daemon Prince + Bloodletters in a Prtrol. You are perfectly allowed to take a CSM DP as the HQ for that detachment. You do not have to take the Daemon Codex DP. Both unit have KHORNE and DAEMON, so they can share a detachment.
And by also having BL, the DP can buff your CSMs as well.

-

In my experience, CSM and CDs in mixed Detachments are vastly worse than either would be in their own Detachments.

Get a Bloodmaster (GW's protectable new name for Heralds of Khorne on foot) and at least ten more more Bloodletters and run them as a 1 HQ, 1 Troop Patrol.

I actually think CD princes are better than CSM. There are very few Legion traits that are good for CSM Princes, but all the CD traits and Locus are well worth it for CD. Khorne is still a bit on the low side of buffs though. For Legopj Princes the best dare Death Guard and Thousand Sonsx which dont really count as CSM, since they are a separate faction


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The khorne herald is a pretty cool support character. If you have any daemons at all, the respective Herald is almost necessary.