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Ok, tricky little question here, and i hate to sound like a lawyer (UGH! SPIT!) but here it is.

I have a strategy in ky necron army that lets all necron units in my army add 1 to shooting rolls made to any unit that a praetorian has scored a single unsaved wound against.

Now, you have a wound, then an armor save then the whole FNP thing. The FNP doesn't actually save vs the wound like armor or toughness, it just keeps a scored wound from taking effect. (Ghawd emprah forgive me I am starting to sound like a lawyer, UGH! SPIT! )

So, if I hit, score a wound and the armor fails to save, but s FNP roll comes into effect do I still get to use the strategy that gives my units +1 to hit vs that unit?

Yes it is actually a pretty big deal as if I go with my praetorians first and score an unsaved wound then I get to add 1 to hit for my tesla units, which doubles their changes of scoring the 3 wound bonus for rolling a 6+ 6o hit.

Unsaved wounds happen when a model loses a wound.

It's another case of GW not being able to write rules properly. There is no definition of what an "unsaved" wound is in the rulebook, and it could reasonably mean both "a wound that is not saved and not ignored" or "a wound that is not saved but ignored."

Email GW and maybe we'll have an FAQ/Errata by 2045.

That being said, my personal opinion is that a wound that is unsaved but subsequently ignored counts as an unsaved wound. "Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound..." To me that indicates the damage and unsaved wound still happened, it's just ignored for the purposes of damage.

Well, that's one for the way I want it and one against....

I agree that the rules are not clear.

My personal opinion is that if the wound is "ignored" then that includes any effects from the wound, not just the 1 damage.

If you're taking a poll, I say the wound has to stick for it to count.

As hard as necrons got xxxxed in 8e I was hoping we'd get a few breaks.

How does this sound. It says UNSAVED and we have a SAVE stat. So, a wound that is not stopped by the save stat counts as an unsaved wound? No clue where invulnerable SAVE fits in. We are back to the nebulous nature of GW not defining things and using the same words for multiple things (such as wound and damage at times). My opinion: FNP type things do not stop the idea of an unsaved wound. Even most of the fluff (menaingless I know) says something along the lines of ignores wounds that would kill etc etc. SO, a wound IGNORED by a FNP equivalent is still a wound that was not saved.

So, what we have is a few things happening in a row after we confirm that a Hit causes a Wound, like data passing through a Logic Gate. (IF/AND/OR/NOR etc)

Now, they apply the Wound to a model in a Unit, then check to see if the model actually takes the Wound, you get to pick the best Save possible against that Wound for that model, applying Invulnerable, Cover Save bonus etc.

If that Save test passes, the Wound is saved and no damage will be done.

If that Save test fails, you now have an Unsaved Wound. This is the key step to allow triggering of the Sautekh Stratagem: Methodical Destruction

That wound now checks for how much damage it actually does, and things like Disgustingly Resilient kick in to see if that damage is ignored or not.

---

TL : DR Methodical Destruction does not care how much damage was done. Only that an Unsaved wound happened.


PS: it is a trick question, Triarch Praetorians can not be of the Sautekh Dynasty, and thus can not trigger Methodical Destruction....

Again my reasoning was that toughness and armor are saves that stop a wound happening. A FNP takes place after the wound hadn't been saved and simply keeps a scored wound from taking a wound off the total because the target is too high or stubborn to suffer it.

Yet another case of GW overloading the word Wound in the rules.

I would say a model has to actually lose a Wound for it to count as an Unsaved Wound. Even if they fail to save against the wound, if the wound is ignored how can you say it suffered it?

 alextroy wrote:
Yet another case of GW overloading the word Wound in the rules.

I would say a model has to actually lose a Wound for it to count as an Unsaved Wound. Even if they fail to save against the wound, if the wound is ignored how can you say it suffered it?

DR (FNP) does not save the wound. It prevents the Damage. Two different key words. Keep them separate.

The Wounds(W) characteristic on the data sheet is how much Damage(D) a model takes before it is removed from play. Models never actually take "wounds" they take Damage(D) that lowers their Wounds(W) count.

Check your rules again. Damage tells you how many Wounds the model loses. The various “FNP” rules allow you to ignore losing Wounds, they do not reduce damage. As you said, different keywords.

Imho a model that does not lose a wound, would not suffer the negative effects of having received a 'unsaved wound'. Regardless of how the wound was saved or negated, it is still not an unsaved wound.

Short : If a model ignores a wound then its still unsaved.

Long : The save roll comes first, when the model fails that save, it can try to ignore that wound, if it has a rule that allows that. The wound is still unsaved, even if the wound is ignored afterwards. Both are different rules. It would be different if the ability would say something like "...if it suffers a wound." Then an ignored wound would not trigger that ability. But if it says something like "....an unsaved wound." an ignored wound is still unsaved.

I’m not sure the rules hold up to this level of linguistic scrutiny tbh.

You can not trigger something that happens on an unsaved wound if you are ignoring it through FNP.

If you fail the saving throw on the inflicted wound it is an unsaved wound. Doesnt matter if its ignored afterwards, or not.

 Alphabet wrote:
Imho a model that does not lose a wound, would not suffer the negative effects of having received a 'unsaved wound'. Regardless of how the wound was saved or negated, it is still not an unsaved wound.

Well, technically the model is not suffering a consequence of taking a wound, all friendly units to the necrons that scroed the unsaved wound get to add 1 to their to hit rolls for the ret of the turn, but the moden doesn't suffer directly.

 alextroy wrote:
Check your rules again. Damage tells you how many Wounds the model loses. The various “FNP” rules allow you to ignore losing Wounds, they do not reduce damage. As you said, different keywords.

I originally worded it to avoid copying directly from the rule book, but here you go:

Big Rule book Page 174
Wounds (W): Wounds show how much damage a model can sustain before it succumbs to its injuries.

Big Rule book Page 175
Damage (D): The amount of damage inflicted by a successful hit.

So, once again, Methodical Destruction does not care how much damage was done. Only that an Unsaved wound happened.

Stratagem requirements:
Inflict an Unsaved Wound

What FNP’s say:
Roll a D6 each time this model loses a wound. On a X (Usually a 5+ or 6+) the wound is ignored and has no effect.

Therefore:
If you make your FNP against all wounds then they are all ignored and have No Effect.

Have you inflicted an unsaved wound if they have all been ignored with no effect?
No.

To be clear I’m basing this on the wording of the FNP in the Blood Angels codex which I have to hand and assuming FNP wording is consistent . It specifically says “ignored and has no effect”. If something has no effect then clearly you can’t claim it still happens to trigger something. All that has happened is that the model has failed a save, it has not suffered a wound.

 p5freak wrote:
If you fail the saving throw on the inflicted wound it is an unsaved wound. Doesnt matter if its ignored afterwards, or not.

How do you have an unsaved wound if you are ignoring it and it has no effect?

The wound was ignored. Not saved. The wound has no effect on the model because it was ignored not saved.

I've seen equal arguments on both sides. I think i'll go with the one that gives my badly hosed necrons a little break.

Gendif wrote:
Stratagem requirements:
Inflict an Unsaved Wound

What FNP’s say:
Roll a D6 each time this model loses a wound. On a X (Usually a 5+ or 6+) the wound is ignored and has no effect.

Therefore:
If you make your FNP against all wounds then they are all ignored and have No Effect.

Have you inflicted an unsaved wound if they have all been ignored with no effect?
No.

To be clear I’m basing this on the wording of the FNP in the Blood Angels codex which I have to hand and assuming FNP wording is consistent . It specifically says “ignored and has no effect”. If something has no effect then clearly you can’t claim it still happens to trigger something. All that has happened is that the model has failed a save, it has not suffered a wound.

It is ignoring the Damage to the Wound Characteristic of the Model, not the Wound inflicted by the weapon/attack/ability etc.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If you fail the saving throw on the inflicted wound it is an unsaved wound. Doesnt matter if its ignored afterwards, or not.

How do you have an unsaved wound if you are ignoring it and it has no effect?

The various FNPs are not a Save check, they affect the Damage that the wound(s) would have done.

 DeathReaper wrote:

How do you have an unsaved wound if you are ignoring it and it has no effect?

Because a failed save roll is an unsaved wound. It doesnt matter what happens afterwards. If the damage is ignored afterwards, and has no effect, doesnt change the fact that an unsaved wound has happened.

from the FAQ

Page 112 – Methodical Destruction
Change the rules text to read: ‘Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds. Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by other Sautekh units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase.’

Doesn't say an unsaved wound but the unit must lose one or more wounds. FNP effects prevents wound loss. If you did not cause any wound loss then you cannot use the Stratagum.

An unsaved wound is a failed save throw. FNP occurs after and is not a save

Preatorians cannot use, or be the benfit of, Dynasty Stratagems or buffs, like +1AP when at half distance.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
from the FAQ

Page 112 – Methodical Destruction
Change the rules text to read: ‘Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds. Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by other Sautekh units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase.’

Doesn't say an unsaved wound but the unit must lose one or more wounds. FNP effects prevents wound loss. If you did not cause any wound loss then you cannot use the Stratagum.

An unsaved wound is a failed save throw. FNP occurs after and is not a save

Preatorians cannot use, or be the benfit of, Dynasty Stratagems or buffs, like +1AP when at half distance.

Somehow I missed that when checking the FAQ but it’s there. Well that concludes this one then. No damage dealt is no stratagem use.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
The wound was ignored. Not saved. The wound has no effect on the model because it was ignored not saved.

I've seen equal arguments on both sides. I think i'll go with the one that gives my badly hosed necrons a little break.

FNP says Roll a D6 each time this model loses a wound. On a X (Usually a 5+ or 6+) the wound is ignored and has no effect.

If the the wound is ignored and has no effect how are you using it for an unsaved wound for a different ability. you are supposed to be ignoring the wound aka as if it never happened...

 Draco765 wrote:

The various FNPs are not a Save check, they affect the Damage that the wound(s) would have done.

Does not matter if the FNP is not a Save... you have to ignore the wound as per FNP...

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How do you have an unsaved wound if you are ignoring it and it has no effect?

Because a failed save roll is an unsaved wound. It doesnt matter what happens afterwards. If the damage is ignored afterwards, and has no effect, doesnt change the fact that an unsaved wound has happened.

The WOUND is ignored, not just the damage... it is as if the save was never failed because you have to ignore the wound...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How do you have an unsaved wound if you are ignoring it and it has no effect?

Because a failed save roll is an unsaved wound. It doesnt matter what happens afterwards. If the damage is ignored afterwards, and has no effect, doesnt change the fact that an unsaved wound has happened.

The WOUND is ignored, not just the damage... it is as if the save was never failed because you have to ignore the wound...

But that's clearly not correct. If a weapon does 3 damage, you roll 3 FNP and pass 1 FNP, it doesn't mean that suddenly "it is as if the save was never failed" - you still suffer 2 damage. Otherwise if what you are suggesting were the case you would suffer 0 damage.

Gendif wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
from the FAQ

Page 112 – Methodical Destruction
Change the rules text to read: ‘Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds. Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by other Sautekh units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase.’

Doesn't say an unsaved wound but the unit must lose one or more wounds. FNP effects prevents wound loss. If you did not cause any wound loss then you cannot use the Stratagum.

An unsaved wound is a failed save throw. FNP occurs after and is not a save

Preatorians cannot use, or be the benfit of, Dynasty Stratagems or buffs, like +1AP when at half distance.

Somehow I missed that when checking the FAQ but it’s there. Well that concludes this one then. No damage dealt is no stratagem use.

Agreed. Its what i said before. Its not an unsaved wound anymore, its now worded differently. If the damage is ignored, no wound has been lost, the stratagem cant be used.