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I have a question, the berserker of khorne fight twice in their turn, for the rule

Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once.

if I use the stratagem
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a
HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER
unit - that unit can immediately fight again.

Fight 2 more times? or just one more (that is, they make 2 rolls to hit for 4 total, or just 1 more for a total of 3 rolls to hit)

 jolyas wrote:
I have a question, the berserker of khorne fight twice in their turn, for the rule

Blood for the Blood God: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once.

if I use the stratagem
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a
HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER
unit - that unit can immediately fight again.

Fight 2 more times? or just one more (that is, they make 2 rolls to hit for 4 total, or just 1 more for a total of 3 rolls to hit)

You only fight one extra time. Zerkers can fight a total of 3 times, once via the fight phase rules, once via their special rule and once via stratagem.

Also, you don't just roll your attacks again, you go though the entire sequence of Piling in etc. Remember that if you charged that turn you can only attack units you charged, but can pile into/consolidate into any unit.

You'll get to make a lot of attacks as BCB says.

Your base profile is 2 attacks. If you have a chainsword that's 1 extra. You also get 1 extra attack on the charge if you're World Eaters. You only to get to make that attack once for the whole phase though, not each time you fight, but it's still nice to have.

So if you use the stratagem too, you're potentially getting 10 attacks with each model (4 +3 +3). 13 for the champion!

Holy gak, I've been playing it as +1 A this whole time. I didn't realize it's only 1 attack, not a stat boost to Attack profile. Damn. World Eaters chapter tactic sucks compared to stuff like Order of the Bloody Rose.

Jackal444 wrote:
Holy gak, I've been playing it as +1 A this whole time. I didn't realize it's only 1 attack, not a stat boost to Attack profile. Damn. World Eaters chapter tactic sucks compared to stuff like Order of the Bloody Rose.

Yeah afraid so! It says you make one extra attack in the fight phase. Not add one to your attacks, and not one extra attack each time you fight.

Jackal444 wrote:
Holy gak, I've been playing it as +1 A this whole time. I didn't realize it's only 1 attack, not a stat boost to Attack profile. Damn. World Eaters chapter tactic sucks compared to stuff like Order of the Bloody Rose.

Codex Creep is real, even when they're simultaneously catching the worst faction-wide nerf in 8th edition.

It's +1 A when you Fight in the following Fight Phase.

It lasts for ALL the combats, not just one.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's +1 A when you Fight in the following Fight Phase.

It lasts for ALL the combats, not just one.

No, it doesn't. Read the rule carefully. It's 1 attack, period. It's not 1 attack each time you fight.

Okay-the rule is, correct me if I'm wrong, this:

"When a unit with this trait makes a successful charge, you can make one additional attack with each of its models in the subsequent Fight phase."

Which would make it only work once, as you're saying. Which is really, really dumb.

Yes, it is dumb. However, reductio ad absurdum is no longer a defence in 8th, with it's scared of the dark plasmaguns, flamethrowers being the premier anti-aircraft weaponry and not being able to shoot a nine and a half foot tall multiple ton literal demigod who is out in the open because a man with a flashlight behind a wall is 0.0001" closer to you. The rules are what the rules are.

Sadly, GW seem to think that Power Armour is actually good this edition and seem to have intentionally hobbled all Space Marine variants with crappy traits.

I understood that they got the benefit of the plus 1 attack every time they fight, per the reasoning in this thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349229-interaction-between-world-eaters-legion-trait-and-berzerkers/

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
I understood that they got the benefit of the plus 1 attack every time they fight, per the reasoning in this thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349229-interaction-between-world-eaters-legion-trait-and-berzerkers/

Well to put it in a single word, that reasoning is incorrect.

I used to think they only got plus one (in total) but the reasoning there was pretty airtight.

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
I used to think they only got plus one (in total) but the reasoning there was pretty airtight.

How is it airtight? If you get more than 1 bonus attack total you're breaking the rule. It says +1 attack IN THE PHASE, not every time they fight in the phase.

Compare it to the Order of the Bloody Rose trait to see what it would have to say to apply every time they fight.

Beta SOB Codex wrote:Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristics of a model with this conviction during any turn in which it made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
I used to think they only got plus one (in total) but the reasoning there was pretty airtight.

How is it airtight? If you get more than 1 bonus attack total you're breaking the rule. It says +1 attack IN THE PHASE, not every time they fight in the phase.

Compare it to the Order of the Bloody Rose trait to see what it would have to say to apply every time they fight.

Beta SOB Codex wrote:Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristics of a model with this conviction during any turn in which it made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention.

Plus one attacks in the phase IS plus one attacks whenever you activate in the phase. How can it be anything else?

For another source:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/27/codex-review-chaos-space-marines-world-eaters/

Dice4thedicegod wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
I used to think they only got plus one (in total) but the reasoning there was pretty airtight.

How is it airtight? If you get more than 1 bonus attack total you're breaking the rule. It says +1 attack IN THE PHASE, not every time they fight in the phase.

Compare it to the Order of the Bloody Rose trait to see what it would have to say to apply every time they fight.

Beta SOB Codex wrote:Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristics of a model with this conviction during any turn in which it made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention.

Plus one attacks in the phase IS plus one attacks whenever you activate in the phase. How can it be anything else?

For another source:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/27/codex-review-chaos-space-marines-world-eaters/

"Journalists" are usually wrong. The rule is what the rule is, what people want it to be doesn't change it. That's the benefit of being a RaW purist, you can't be wrong because the rules tell you what is correct, rather than your preconceived notions of what you want the rule to say. If Frontline Gaming said "Ultramarines get a 1+ save during your opponents turn", would that make it true?

CSM Codex wrote:"When a unit with this trait makes a successful charge, you can make one additional attack with each of its models in the subsequent Fight phase."

You can make ONE additional attack in the subsequent Fight phase. Not ONE additional attack every time you fight in the subsequent Fight phase. If you fight again, and make an additional attack, you've broken the rule saying you only get one additional attack. Yes, it's extremely stupid but that is what the rule says.

But for now I'll leave this be, I've pointed out what the rules say and you're free to accept the answer or not accept the answer. My "opinion" isn't what makes the answer correct, it's what the rules in the rulebook say that does.

Actually better to take them in a non world eater detachment, Mark them slaneesh and let them fight three times

 quickfuze wrote:
Actually better to take them in a non world eater detachment, Mark them slaneesh and let them fight three times

Can't. Khorne Berserkers are always marked Khorne.

Edit: Also, the fight again strat is Khorne exclusive, I think.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Actually better to take them in a non world eater detachment, Mark them slaneesh and let them fight three times

Can't. Khorne Berserkers are always marked Khorne.

Edit: Also, the fight again strat is Khorne exclusive, I think.

I meant alpha legion sorry.. you can make an alpha legion unit fight again

 quickfuze wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Actually better to take them in a non world eater detachment, Mark them slaneesh and let them fight three times

Can't. Khorne Berserkers are always marked Khorne.

Edit: Also, the fight again strat is Khorne exclusive, I think.

I meant alpha legion sorry.. you can make an alpha legion unit fight again

You can make any Legion fight again. As long as they're Khorne.

Alpha Legion is decent though for the infiltrate move and -1 to hit. That's if you aren't putting them in Rhinos of course, which I guess you probably should be...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dice4thedicegod wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dice4thedicegod wrote:
I used to think they only got plus one (in total) but the reasoning there was pretty airtight.

How is it airtight? If you get more than 1 bonus attack total you're breaking the rule. It says +1 attack IN THE PHASE, not every time they fight in the phase.

Compare it to the Order of the Bloody Rose trait to see what it would have to say to apply every time they fight.

Beta SOB Codex wrote:Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristics of a model with this conviction during any turn in which it made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention.

Plus one attacks in the phase IS plus one attacks whenever you activate in the phase. How can it be anything else?

For another source:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/27/codex-review-chaos-space-marines-world-eaters/

"Journalists" are usually wrong. The rule is what the rule is, what people want it to be doesn't change it. That's the benefit of being a RaW purist, you can't be wrong because the rules tell you what is correct, rather than your preconceived notions of what you want the rule to say. If Frontline Gaming said "Ultramarines get a 1+ save during your opponents turn", would that make it true?

CSM Codex wrote:"When a unit with this trait makes a successful charge, you can make one additional attack with each of its models in the subsequent Fight phase."

You can make ONE additional attack in the subsequent Fight phase. Not ONE additional attack every time you fight in the subsequent Fight phase. If you fight again, and make an additional attack, you've broken the rule saying you only get one additional attack. Yes, it's extremely stupid but that is what the rule says.

But for now I'll leave this be, I've pointed out what the rules say and you're free to accept the answer or not accept the answer. My "opinion" isn't what makes the answer correct, it's what the rules in the rulebook say that does.

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?
A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes

Just because they count as a different unit selected it's still the same fight phase. It doesn't give them permission to use the attack more than once in the phase. Doing so would violate the restrictions of the trait.

Is it up to the player to decide which activation he would like to use the extra attack on the Berzerkers with? activation 1 or activation 2? Seems a little suspect to me

To be honest, I don't think GW's intention was to make players be dice bookkeepers with this trait and while maybe wrong, I've always played it as +1A in both activations. Until GW FAQs this - they've had over a year since the Chaos book came out and never addressed this so I'm led to believe that the intention was for +1 attack in both activations

Malfurious wrote:
Is it up to the player to decide which activation he would like to use the extra attack on the Berzerkers with? activation 1 or activation 2? Seems a little suspect to me

To be honest, I don't think GW's intention was to make players be dice bookkeepers with this trait and while maybe wrong, I've always played it as +1A in both activations. Until GW FAQs this - they've had over a year since the Chaos book came out and never addressed this so I'm led to believe that the intention was for +1 attack in both activations

Maybe they've not addressed it because the RAW seems clear to them? That you get one in the phase as a whole, which is what it says.

And yes, you would get to choose which activation to use it in. Much like if you have a one shot weapon and get to activate twice in the shooting phase you would get to choose which activation to use it on.

 Stux wrote:

Malfurious wrote:
Is it up to the player to decide which activation he would like to use the extra attack on the Berzerkers with? activation 1 or activation 2? Seems a little suspect to me

To be honest, I don't think GW's intention was to make players be dice bookkeepers with this trait and while maybe wrong, I've always played it as +1A in both activations. Until GW FAQs this - they've had over a year since the Chaos book came out and never addressed this so I'm led to believe that the intention was for +1 attack in both activations

Maybe they've not addressed it because the RAW seems clear to them? That you get one in the phase as a whole, which is what it says.

And yes, you would get to choose which activation to use it in. Much like if you have a one shot weapon and get to activate twice in the shooting phase you would get to choose which activation to use it on.

Fair enough - for a unit that only has one activation in the fight phase, it's pretty clear - but how this interacts with Blood for the Blood God or whatever the fight twice rule is called is not.

This is how I see it: We know Butcher's Nails get activated if the unit completed a successful charge in the preceding charge phase. Let's say a player makes the charge and then picks this unit of Berzerkers to activate -> did the unit successfully charge? yes, +1A, roll dice, remove models, etc etc. Berzerker rule says they can activate again immediately and fight one more time, did the unit successfully complete a charge in the preceding charge phase? yes, +1A, roll dice, remove models, etc etc. Oh, you want to use the Khorne strat to let them fight one more time? Did they successfully complete a charge in the preceding charge phase? yes, +1A, roll... you get the idea

If for some reason your berzerkers couldn't finish off whatever you pointed them at then the +1A attack wouldn't apply in the next fight phase because they didn't successfully complete a charge (i.e in your opponent's fight phase)

The rule doesn't say +1 attack though. It doesn't alter the characteristic. It just gives you permission to make one attack extra and one attack only extra in the whole phase.

You're missing a key part of this if you were parsing it logically. Have you made the extra attack yet? If no, you may make an extra attack. If you have, you may not.

 Stux wrote:
The rule doesn't say +1 attack though. It doesn't alter the characteristic. It just gives you permission to make one attack extra and one attack only extra in the whole phase.

You're missing a key part of this if you were parsing it logically. Have you made the extra attack yet? If no, you may make an extra attack. If you have, you may not.

perhaps, however, digging a bit deeper I came across a note from FAQ 1

Q. If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?
A. Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes

So while not specifically addressing the Butcher's Nails, for game purposes, we treat second activations, regardless of the army, as if it were a separate unit that is attacking, i.e not counting as having attacked already.

So the question arises is, did this "separate unit" complete a charge to get it where it is or did it just magically appear on the battlefield? Logically, it made the charge and should get the +1A for this second activation. RAW, it's sloppy for this situation but I don't think it was the intent of the rule's writers

I don't think there's any reason to expect that the intention was to get an extra attack every time you fight. There's just nothing to suggest that for me. So I go with the RAW.

That FAQ doesn't look to me like it's intending to allow an ability that would otherwise only be allowed once per phase to function multiple times per phase. I read it as counting it as a new unit for all rule purposes within the scope of allowing it to Fight a second time. It doesn't reset limited use abilities like The Butcher's Nails.

I'm not aware of any one use melee weapons, but it's analogous to a model with a Hunter Killer missile that is given permission to shoot again being allowed to fire it's Hunter Killer twice, because it's being counted as a new unit.

 Stux wrote:
I don't think there's any reason to expect that the intention was to get an extra attack every time you fight. There's just nothing to suggest that for me. So I go with the RAW.

That FAQ doesn't look to me like it's intending to allow an ability that would otherwise only be allowed once per phase to function multiple times per phase. I read it as counting it as a new unit for all rule purposes within the scope of allowing it to Fight a second time. It doesn't reset limited use abilities like The Butcher's Nails.

I'm not aware of any one use melee weapons, but it's analogous to a model with a Hunter Killer missile that is given permission to shoot again being allowed to fire it's Hunter Killer twice, because it's being counted as a new unit.

agree to disagree