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Which armies are you thinking of that need to spend that many CPs at the beginning of the game and on each subsequent turn?

BA use up anywhere between 5 to 7 CP pre game. GK generate very few CP, but have to use heed the prognosticators that is 6 CP for first 3 turns of the game. And if you want to re-roll or use psybolt ammo your down another 3CP per turn. Having zero by the end of turn 2 is normal for GK.

The horror.

Maybe for IG users.

 skchsan wrote:
Not to mention enforcing the deck composition - who's going to police that the deck is composed "legally"? What's stopping a player from just forming a deck with command rerolls & only the important stratagems? If it's enforced in the beginning, who's going to know if they swapped out cards after the initial inspection?

1) Decks are set up in a neutral spot beside the board & the only interaction you have is drawing the top card - no handling of the deck/shuffling/etc. Discards get placed beside the deck.

2) You get an end step to game: Reveal you deck to your opponent.

Anyone caught with an illegal deck loses the game, is DQ'd from the tourney effective immediately, and shunned in non-tourney play.

Karol wrote:
BA use up anywhere between 5 to 7 CP pre game.

What are they spending them on?

Karol wrote:
GK generate very few CP, but have to use heed the prognosticators that is 6 CP for first 3 turns of the game.

See, this is where you really start to lose me.

No, the GK player doesn't have to use that stratagem each turn. He just wants to.

Karol wrote:
Having zero by the end of turn 2 is normal for GK.

Given that GKs would likely end up with more CPs as a result of the_scotsman's idea, I'm struggling to even see the issue here.

Karol wrote:
Maybe for IG users.

The game seemed to manage fine without Stratagems for 7 editions. But, sure, suddenly removing them will end the universe or something.

See, this is where you really start to lose me.

No, the GK player doesn't have to use that stratagem each turn. He just wants to.

No he has to use them on his HQs. GK can't deal with their stuff ending up dead. No chaff and weak offensive power does that to a list. If he doesn't use the heed he just loses his NDK grandmasters turn 1.

What are they spending them on?

Now am not a BA player, but if I remember right it is spend on wings and the hammer, making one of the captins DC. Am sure a BA player could list exactly what they spend all of those CP on.

Given that GKs would likely end up with more CPs as a result of the_scotsman's idea, I'm struggling to even see the issue here.

But am not talking about ideas. Am talking about actual CP use for some armies right now. If GW gives GK 2 extra rules per unit and slash the points cost in half, they can remove all GK stratagems for all I care.

The game seemed to manage fine without Stratagems for 7 editions. But, sure, suddenly removing them will end the universe or something.

Heed the prognosticators is the only good thing in the entire GK codex. If GW decides to give GK, or maybe BA too, other good rules. Then sure you can remove them. Better yet make Heed like Inari soul burst for GK, so that we can proc it on one unit every turn. Would save space to print the stratagem cards too.

Karol wrote:

No he has to use them on his HQs.

No. Once again, he wants to use them on his HQs.

Karol wrote:
GK can't deal with their stuff ending up dead.

If your army can't afford to lose models, then the problem lies with your army, not with CPs.

Karol wrote:

Now am not a BA player, but if I remember right it is spend on wings and the hammer, making one of the captins DC. Am sure a BA player could list exactly what they spend all of those CP on.

But, once again, this is sounding like stuff the BA player wants, not stuff he needs.

Surely there should be some meaningful choice involved with Stratagems and CP spending? So that players can't just use all the Stratagems they want, when they want.

Karol wrote:

But am not talking about ideas. Am talking about actual CP use for some armies right now. If GW gives GK 2 extra rules per unit and slash the points cost in half, they can remove all GK stratagems for all I care.

Granted, but this is all hypothetical anyway.

We've also got the aforementioned issue wherein Relics and (in some cases) other stuff that should be wargear was made into Stratagems instead.

Karol wrote:

Heed the prognosticators is the only good thing in the entire GK codex. If GW decides to give GK, or maybe BA too, other good rules. Then sure you can remove them. Better yet make Heed like Inari soul burst for GK, so that we can proc it on one unit every turn. Would save space to print the stratagem cards too.

I'd be more open to that if Heed the prognosticators was capped so that a save could never go beyond 3++ with it.

 vipoid wrote:

Karol wrote:

No he has to use them on his HQs.

No. Once again, he wants to use them on his HQs.

Karol wrote:
GK can't deal with their stuff ending up dead.

If your army can't afford to lose models, then the problem lies with your army, not with CPs.

Karol wrote:

Now am not a BA player, but if I remember right it is spend on wings and the hammer, making one of the captins DC. Am sure a BA player could list exactly what they spend all of those CP on.

But, once again, this is sounding like stuff the BA player wants, not stuff he needs.

Surely there should be some meaningful choice involved with Stratagems and CP spending? So that players can't just use all the Stratagems they want, when they want.

Karol wrote:

But am not talking about ideas. Am talking about actual CP use for some armies right now. If GW gives GK 2 extra rules per unit and slash the points cost in half, they can remove all GK stratagems for all I care.

Granted, but this is all hypothetical anyway.

We've also got the aforementioned issue wherein Relics and (in some cases) other stuff that should be wargear was made into Stratagems instead.

Karol wrote:

Heed the prognosticators is the only good thing in the entire GK codex. If GW decides to give GK, or maybe BA too, other good rules. Then sure you can remove them. Better yet make Heed like Inari soul burst for GK, so that we can proc it on one unit every turn. Would save space to print the stratagem cards too.

I'd be more open to that if Heed the prognosticators was capped so that a save could never go beyond 3++ with it.

The issue is a number of strategums especially Tau and some other codex's were unit special rules in previous editions. So not using those strategums makes the units perform below par.

To answer the OP's question:
The way I interpret things, fluff-wise, it's not supposed to be that the units on the board literally generate Command Points (outside of special relics or traits or what-have-you,) it's that if your army is composed entirely of powerful elite choices and heavy tanks that the commander had to requisition and get onto the battlefield, that commander has already used his "Command" to get the army onto the battlefield.

Meanwhile, if a Commander builds an army that's just a block of infantry, or that's an entire brigade who comes with their own battlefield support (instead of having to pull his battlefield support from other sources) it's much easier to get the troops ready for battle and so he can use his influence and resources to instead, (for example,) supply his troops with specialized ammo, get them into flanking position, call in orbital bombardments, etc.

It doesn't work this way, unfortunately, because of the way the detachments are structured and because you end up incentivized to take tiny, cheap MSU troops as batteries instead of running more volume/points worth of troops, but that's the theory anyways.

If we're talking about fixing the system so that it works "As intended" (or at least as I read the intent, anyways) instead of the janky current system, I'd recommend a much more broad system that works off of Power Level, IE:
You start with 3 Command Points
If at least 25% of your army's Power Level is troops, and contains at least one HQ choice from the same subfaction, you get an additional 5 Command Points. (Akin to running one Battalion.)
If at least 50% of your army's Power Level is troops, and contains at least two HQ choices from the same subfaction, you get an additional 10 Command Points.
If at least 40% of your army's Power Level is troops, and 10% each from Elites, Heavy Support, and Fast Attack, and at least 3 HQ choices from the same subfaction, you get an additional 15 Command Points.

This, with the rule of 3, (and possibly with some tweaking to specific numbers,) would ideally prevent spam and soup while rewarding armies for having a nice, tight cohesion. (Knights could keep their "If you take lots of knights, you get bonus CPs," but reworked to count off of Power Level.)

It also makes it almost impossible to take a single Castlenna and very difficult to bring any other Knight from whatever from another faction with the largest other detachment. If you have 70% of your army, plus three HQ choices (which will be another 5-10% or so,) you have almost no room for a Knight unless you are extremely careful and get everything right on the dot, with all your choices right at the correct % without going over, AND you have to be careful to only pick units with relatively high power level to their points cost.

No. Once again, he wants to use them on his HQs.

you know this is like saying that people only want to eating, because they totaly can stop eating if they want to. They will die, but it is not like eating isn't a choice.

If your army can't afford to lose models, then the problem lies with your army, not with CPs.

So in order for other people to have more fun, my already bad army has to be nerfed more, right? Do you like work for GW, because they do it every CA or FAQ.

But, once again, this is sounding like stuff the BA player wants, not stuff he needs.

Surely there should be some meaningful choice involved with Stratagems and CP spending? So that players can't just use all the Stratagems they want, when they want.

how many jump captins without the BA relics and stratagems are used? Seems like it is a number close to zero. For me this means that to use those models one has to use the stratagem. If it was a choice the same unit or set up would pop up in different configurations.

We've also got the aforementioned issue wherein Relics and (in some cases) other stuff that should be wargear was made into Stratagems instead.

From a GK point of view, relics may as well not exist. NDKs can take them, Draigo can't take them. If we go with hypothetical changes am all in favour of relics being removed from the game.

I'd be more open to that if Heed the prognosticators was capped so that a save could never go beyond 3++ with it.

Maybe if GW lets all GK buy storm shields. Heed is the only good thing in the entire GK codex. Books that are good have ton of comperable stuff, with more flexibility or lower cost. If GK were dripping in good rules, then maybe I could be more sympathic to such a nerf. It aint the case though.

So not using those strategums makes the units perform below par.

From what I understand stuff like special bolter ammo was stock option for GK units. If GW gives us those back and lets us take storm shields for 2pts, they can take all the stratagems and CP.

You should get 1 CP for each full 200 points of models that share a faction keyword with your warlord.

You'd obviously have to exclude the soup-ish ones but that is done to some extent already.

So if you have a smash captain of those pesky Blood Angels you better bring some more of them and not just 32 random dorks with flashlights.

Tournaments could cap the number of CPs to a number lower than 10 for a 2000 point game to allow for some soup but still punish too extensive mixtures.

happy new year