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Some ideas I've pondered in order to make the Adeptus Sororitas Codex distinct and flavorful when it comes out.

1) Add sarissas as an upgrade to boltguns ( AP -1 in combat ? ). 1 pt upgrade per model. I mostly just love the idea of mini chainsaws being used to mow down the heretics in combat. Hopefully this is in the works with the plastic kits...

2) Keep the new faith system but improve it by allowing the player to use additional faith points to improve the roll by +1.

3) Order Specific Relics, AOF and Strategems

3) Stratagems for flamers as well as meltaguns along the lines of Blessed Bolts (which might be too cheap at 1cp). Flamers and Multi-Meltas especially are at the moment heavily overshadowed by meltaguns and storm bolters. Strategems for flamers I think that would work well would be 1) increase range and damage by 1 and AP by an additional -1 ( or just -1 for regular flamers) 2) Instead of d6 hits, just 6 hits just like the Arco-Flaggelants strategem. As for melta, I'm not sure but it would be nice to have something to make Multi-Melta's worth it. Anything that gives them a increased chance of being seen as more valuable then melta/storm bolters would be worth it.

4) Frateris Militia- Guard Conscripts Stats and point cost????? By no means am I advocating that Sisters deserve their own immobile, fearless horde. Just cheap bodies to get in the way. Fluffy as well. Might need a Preacher/ Missionary in the army to be allowed to be taken. Do not contribute to Faith Points.

5) Celestian squad allowing all models the options the Superior has as of right now ( Inferno, plasma, power weapons, combi weapons).

6) Laud Hailers- +1 Leadership and/or to AOF tests. Possible -1 Leadership debuff to enemy units within 3''? 6''???

7)Ecclesiarch type building. Sanctuary, Tomb of a Martyr, Site of a Imperial Relic. Something fortification wise.

8) AOF that either boosts the Shield of Faith of either a character and/or a unit to a 5+ and/or their Deny the Witch to the regular 2d6.

I have been waiting for YEARS, what do you think would should be in the Codex as well as in the model lineup.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Some ideas I've pondered in order to make the Adeptus Sororitas Codex distinct and flavorful when it comes out.

1) Add sarissas as an upgrade to boltguns ( AP -1 in combat ? ). 1 pt upgrade per model. I mostly just love the idea of mini chainsaws being used to mow down the heretics in combat. Hopefully this is in the works with the plastic kits...

If we get the option to swap out bolt pistols for chainswords, this could be handled as a simple conversion rather than a new weapon statline.

2) Keep the new faith system but improve it by allowing the player to use additional faith points to improve the roll by +1.

Maybe. I actually haven't had much trouble getting my Acts off pretty reliably between my Simulacrums and my Dialogus. Plus, I kind of like that you can't guarantee the powers will go off. You have to have faith. Being able to pump points into it changes the feel of the rule a bit. It makes miracles feel like something sisters can perform on command if they just concentrate hard enough.

3) Order Specific Relics, AOF and Strategems

Sure. I'd be very surprised if these weren't in the works. I'm guessing some of the generic relics will become order-specific.

3) Stratagems for flamers as well as meltaguns along the lines of Blessed Bolts (which might be too cheap at 1cp). Flamers and Multi-Meltas especially are at the moment heavily overshadowed by meltaguns and storm bolters. Strategems for flamers I think that would work well would be 1) increase range and damage by 1 and AP by an additional -1 ( or just -1 for regular flamers) 2) Instead of d6 hits, just 6 hits just like the Arco-Flaggelants strategem. As for melta, I'm not sure but it would be nice to have something to make Multi-Melta's worth it. Anything that gives them a increased chance of being seen as more valuable then melta/storm bolters would be worth it.

Depending on specifics, sure. The Holy Trinity is actually kind of a neat way to encourage the use of other weapon types, but I'm not opposed to letting sisters be better with their most iconic weapons.

4) Frateris Militia- Guard Conscripts Stats and point cost????? By no means am I advocating that Sisters deserve their own immobile, fearless horde. Just cheap bodies to get in the way. Fluffy as well. Might need a Preacher/ Missionary in the army to be allowed to be taken. Do not contribute to Faith Points.

That would be fluffy, but is it necessary? Sisters are already cheap enough to make batallions and brigades reasonably accessible, so they don't particularly need their own horde unit. What rules would these guys have to differentiate them from an allied guard detachment's infantry or conscripts? You can even take priests in those detachments.

5) Celestian squad allowing all models the options the Superior has as of right now ( Inferno, plasma, power weapons, combi weapons).

Absolutely. I was surprised to find they were so limited.

6) Laud Hailers- +1 Leadership and/or to AOF tests. Possible -1 Leadership debuff to enemy units within 3''? 6''???

Nah. Maybe the leadership part would work as a stratagem or something, but a dialogus + simulacrum already gives you a rerollable AoF at a +1. With the right order tactic, that makes The Passion a rerollable 3+ or Divine Guidance a rerollable 2+.

7)Ecclesiarch type building. Sanctuary, Tomb of a Martyr, Site of a Imperial Relic. Something fortification wise.

Not opposed to it. I think there's room for everyone to have more fortifications, though the imperium in general already has plenty. It just depends on specifics. What would you want these to actually do? Doesn't the imperial statue terrain still make imperial units fearless or something?

8) AOF that either boosts the Shield of Faith of either a character and/or a unit to a 5+ and/or their Deny the Witch to the regular 2d6.

Yeah, the Deny the Witch part really needs to be a thing. Currently, it only works with the right relic OR if your opponent rolls less than a 6 to succesfully cast a power and then you roll a 6. Way too situational. I actually like our FNP VS mortal wounds in the psychic phase though.

Maybe some Acts of Faith could have enhanced versions that you spend extra FP to activate?

I have been waiting for YEARS, what do you think would should be in the Codex as well as in the model lineup.

* Missionaries/Priests should be able to take wargear. It's weird that my plasmagun priest is suddenly illegal.

* I kind of like the idea of Ordo Hereticus inquisitors being in the book and unlocking access to special stratagems or relics or something. Maybe he basically gives a chapter tactic to your ecclesiarchal battle conclave units or something?

* The bonus Movement AoF is fine, but it could maybe stand to be +6" instead of +3".

* Anti-psyker crossbows!

* Maybe roll in the Culexus or a generic pariah character?

*Would it be completely against fluff for them (or the battle conclaves) to have access to a sanctioned psyker? The sisters help round witches up, after all. Having one of the mutants on-hand (despicable though they might be) could be a real boon.

Honestly, the beta codex is pretty cool as-is. Even if they added absolutely nothing, I could still enjoy games with it.

Yeah, the Deny the Witch part really needs to be a thing. Currently, it only works with the right relic OR if your opponent rolls less than a 6 to succesfully cast a power and then you roll a 6. Way too situational. I actually like our FNP VS mortal wounds in the psychic phase though.

Maybe some Acts of Faith could have enhanced versions that you spend extra FP to activate?

I like this idea. Some way to "go all in" fits the theme and playstyle of Sisters more than fueling AOF with faith points. Nice

Faith powers worth a darn. Okay thats not fair; its only Hand of Emperor and Divine Guidance that need nudging. Make hand 6" move and DG rersolve 6s to wound at improved AP in addition to the +1bs. The rest are fine and have their place.

Basically make Celestians like the old command squad.

Laud Hailers let embarked characters auras affect units outside their transport.

Theres not too much id like more to see. Just those two faith powers nudged up and id be a happy chappy.

And give priests back their weapons. And the Cannoness back her eviscerator.

I wouldnt object to priests getting their old warhymns back. Sing a song each turn to different effect. I liked that.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Faith powers worth a darn. Okay thats not fair; its only Hand of Emperor and Divine Guidance that need nudging. Make hand 6" move and DG rersolve 6s to wound at improved AP in addition to the +1bs. The rest are fine and have their place.

Basically make Celestians like the old command squad.

Laud Hailers let embarked characters auras affect units outside their transport.

Theres not too much id like more to see. Just those two faith powers nudged up and id be a happy chappy.

And give priests back their weapons. And the Cannoness back her eviscerator.

I wouldnt object to priests getting their old warhymns back. Sing a song each turn to different effect. I liked that.

I agree with all of that except the Divine Guidance part. DG is currently reasonably easy to get off, and it makes most weapons in our army 2+ rerollables to hit if you're near a canoness. Plus, it combos well with squads full of heavy weapons. I'm pretty alright with it as is.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Faith powers worth a darn. Okay thats not fair; its only Hand of Emperor and Divine Guidance that need nudging. Make hand 6" move and DG rersolve 6s to wound at improved AP in addition to the +1bs. The rest are fine and have their place.

Basically make Celestians like the old command squad.

Laud Hailers let embarked characters auras affect units outside their transport.

Theres not too much id like more to see. Just those two faith powers nudged up and id be a happy chappy.

And give priests back their weapons. And the Cannoness back her eviscerator.

I wouldnt object to priests getting their old warhymns back. Sing a song each turn to different effect. I liked that.

I agree with all of that except the Divine Guidance part. DG is currently reasonably easy to get off, and it makes most weapons in our army 2+ rerollables to hit if you're near a canoness. Plus, it combos well with squads full of heavy weapons. I'm pretty alright with it as is.

See im limited by my collection. Ive only 3 storm bolters, 4 meltaguns and a heavy bolter; but ive got flamers and heavy flamers out the wazoo, so hitting on 2s means little to me which is why id like something that benefits flamers as well. Despite flamers being an iconic weapon and the start of the beta dex speel mentions sisters having specialised training in flamers; flamers get jack all love.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Faith powers worth a darn. Okay thats not fair; its only Hand of Emperor and Divine Guidance that need nudging. Make hand 6" move and DG rersolve 6s to wound at improved AP in addition to the +1bs. The rest are fine and have their place.

Basically make Celestians like the old command squad.

Laud Hailers let embarked characters auras affect units outside their transport.

Theres not too much id like more to see. Just those two faith powers nudged up and id be a happy chappy.

And give priests back their weapons. And the Cannoness back her eviscerator.

I wouldnt object to priests getting their old warhymns back. Sing a song each turn to different effect. I liked that.

These ideas are great!

I particularly like the laud hailers allowing auras to project out of a vehicle. That's inspired!. Could become very powerful as a force multiplier, but if costed right should be ok.

Make acts of faith an actual army mechanic you can rely on rather than the current "throw a point at something and maybe it'll work.

This is on the level of 7th edition rules writing; roll dice until something happens. Then roll more dice to see what happens in the thing that happens.

The current system is not evocative of sisters in the setting. That's somewhat forgivable if the rules work well. They don't. Acts of Faith fail currently in everything but name, IMO.

If they were a guaranteed thing under certain circumstances (such as heavy losses, being largely engaged in close combat or ahead on objectives for instance) they'd be better. Not perfect, but better.

My problems with the Beta Codex Acts of Faith:

Too Unreliable: Unless you spend extra points for upgrade model or give up your Conviction to making them more reliable, you basically have a 50% chance of getting off an Act of Faith (3+, 4+ or 5+). How many other armies have a 50% chance to successfully use their Faction ability when that ability isn't meaty like Disgustingly Resilient?

Too Limited Usage: Under the Index, my army got 1-4 Acts of Faith per turn (Army 2+, Celestine Automatic, 2 Imagifiers 4+ each). Under the Beta Codex, my 1500 Point Army of the same models gets 7 Faith Points. 7 tries that succeed 50% of the time! I could beat that in 3 turns under the Index.

Unimpressive Acts: Except for The Passion and Aegis of the Emperor, the Acts of Faith are pretty tame in effect. +1 to Hit for one unit in a 3+ BS Army? Auto pass Morale? +3" Move?

GW needs to do a bit better than this. I'd say that 2 of the 3 issues need an upgrade.

Side issue: Divine Guidance is a bad choice for an Act of Faith mechanic. Sisters are users of the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Flamer and Melta. +1 to Hit does nothing for a Flamer! Better to have Divine Guidance allow you to re-roll 1's to Wound for the unit. Now it enhances all weapons and is probably mechanically better also.

Don't forget we may be seeing some new kits and options coming out, so it may not only be limited to rules...

 alextroy wrote:
Side issue: Divine Guidance is a bad choice for an Act of Faith mechanic. Sisters are users of the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Flamer and Melta. +1 to Hit does nothing for a Flamer! Better to have Divine Guidance allow you to re-roll 1's to Wound for the unit. Now it enhances all weapons and is probably mechanically better also.

I won't argue that it should help flamers (maybe have a side effect like reroll #'s hits), but you always want your pluses higher up the chain. Pluses to hit are better than pluses to wound since you get more chances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We should just return to 3rd ed Faith powers. They are still a roll mechanic, but were more powerful and had a bit more variety.

Id like to see a chamge to Celestians like this:

Bodyguard: Reworded to match Tau drone Saviour protocols. (Did suggest this in my feedback)

"Insert fluffy name": Celestian squads add 1 to any devotion test rolls they make. (Stackable with simulcrum and ebon chalice)

Same stats and whatnot in their current dataslate.

Equipment: same as current but add in:
Up to 2 Celestians may attach Sarissas to their boltguns.
Up to 2 Celestians may exchange their boltguns for Praesidium Protectiva.

Sarissa: strength: user. AP-1 D1.

Praesidium Protectiva: models equipped with this item have a 4+ invulnerable save. Additionally, models equipped with this item that suffer a mortal wound due to the Bodyguard rule may ignore the mortal wound on a roll of 4+.

Edit: spelling

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Id like to see a chamge to Celestians like this:

Bodyguard: Reworded to match Tau drone Saviour protocols. (Did suggest this in my feedback)

"Insert fluffy name": Celestian squads add 1 to any devotion test rolls they make. (Stackable with simulcrum and ebon chalice)

Same stats and whatnot in their current dataslate.

Equipment: same as current but add in:
Up to 2 Celestians may attach Sarissas to their boltguns.
Up to 2 Celestians may exchange their boltguns for Praesidium Protectiva.

Sarissa: strength: user. AP-1 D1.

Praesidium Protectiva: models equipped with this item have a 4+ invulnerable save. Additionally, models equipped with this item that suffer a mortal wound due to the Bodyguard rule may ignore the mortal wound on a roll of 4+.

Edit: spelling

I would love to see PP like the Battle Pilgrims with shields covered in relics but with BP in the off hand. It'd be a very cool unit.

 pretre wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Side issue: Divine Guidance is a bad choice for an Act of Faith mechanic. Sisters are users of the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Flamer and Melta. +1 to Hit does nothing for a Flamer! Better to have Divine Guidance allow you to re-roll 1's to Wound for the unit. Now it enhances all weapons and is probably mechanically better also.

I won't argue that it should help flamers (maybe have a side effect like reroll #'s hits), but you always want your pluses higher up the chain. Pluses to hit are better than pluses to wound since you get more chances.

That's actually not incorrect. You want to enhance the part of your roll sequence that is least likely to succeed.

Normal Sister Bolter versus MEQ: Hit 2/3 * Wound 1/2 * Failed Save 1/3 = 2/18 or 0.111 Wounds per Shot
+1 Hit Sister Bolter versus MEQ: Hit 5/6 * Wound 1/2 * Failed Save 1/3 = 5/36 or 0.139 Wounds per Shot
+1 Wound Sister Bolter versus MEQ: Hit 2/3 * Wound 2/3 * Failed Save 1/3 = 4/27 or 0.148 Wounds per Shot
-1 AP Sister Bolter versus MEQ: Hit 2/3 * Wound 1/2 * Failed Save 1/2 = 2/12 or 0.167 Wounds per Shot

That being said +1 to Hit is better than re-roll 1's to Wound, but would pail to re-roll all wounds:
Reroll 1 Wound Sister Bolter versus MEQ: Hit 2/3 * Wound 7/12 * Failed Save 1/3 = 14/108 or 0.130 Wounds per Shot
Reroll to Wound Sister Bolter versus MEQ: Hit 2/3 * Wound 3/4 * Failed Save 1/3 = 6/36 or 0.167 Wounds per Shot

My proposed fix for AoFs: rework them so that they're roughly equivalent in power, then have the difficulty number scale with army size and composition. In any Sororitas detachment, all AoFs go off on a 5+. If you run multiple Sisters detachments, they get a +1 to go off on a 4+. If you run pure Sororitas, it's another +1 for a 3+.

This way armies taking Sisters allies (the Faithful 17) get pretty good AoFs that just work once in a while, an army running allies to cover for Sisters' weaknesses gets them half the time, and a pure force gets them nearly every turn with the Dialogus they're probably running. It diminishes the impact on soup lists while making AoFs feel like something you can plan around in a 2k list.

Thoughts?

 MacPhail wrote:
My proposed fix for AoFs: rework them so that they're roughly equivalent in power, then have the difficulty number scale with army size and composition. In any Sororitas detachment, all AoFs go off on a 5+. If you run multiple Sisters detachments, they get a +1 to go off on a 4+. If you run pure Sororitas, it's another +1 for a 3+.

This way armies taking Sisters allies (the Faithful 17) get pretty good AoFs that just work once in a while, an army running allies to cover for Sisters' weaknesses gets them half the time, and a pure force gets them nearly every turn with the Dialogus they're probably running. It diminishes the impact on soup lists while making AoFs feel like something you can plan around in a 2k list.

Thoughts?

Implementing rules that penalize soup is adding a problem to a problem to a problem: it doesn't fix the problem.

The problem is that the unit you have which fulfills a specific role is SO BAD that you are willing to take taxes from a different faction, increased logistics, additional financial burden, etc. in order to take the better unit for that purpose.

Like if Canonesses had a jump pack option, and a fight on death stratagem, then they'd be close enough to a Smashcap that you wouldn't dip into Blood Angels to take them.

If Exorcist were more consistent, and you could take more of them, then you wouldn't have a purpose to dipping into Knights.

If Repentia weren't absolute garbage, and you didn't have to pay 140 points and multiple slots in taxes to take them, then you wouldn't want to dip into IG to get Bullgryn.

and so on.

The problem is that most Sisters units suck, and the ones that could be good are inconsistent because of dice-on-dice-on-dice. Adding more dice doesn't fix that: it makes it worse.

Acts of Faith should be autopass, and they should be good enough that the gate is the quantity of them that you're allowed to use is the gate, and not a dice roll.

For example, Sisters are weak against invulnerable saves because their anti-tank is low shot volume and overpays for excessive AP that doesn't do anything to any competitive heavy/superheavies. To fix that, they could be given an Act of Faith that makes the meltas in a specific unit ignore invulnerable saves. Super powerful and instantly turns Sisters from one of the worst anti-tank factions into far-and-away the best. What dice roll do we gate that ability behind? Let's say it's a 5+. What happens when you don't roll that 5+? Well, you've already committed to a line which puts them in melta range, so they're right next to what they want to shoot at, and you're not in a box because you can't target units in transports with AoF. So frankly, you just suicided that unit for nothing. But the effect is powerful enough that committing to such a line is worth the risk: you have a reasonable chance to oneshot a titan or character.

And that's the problem with the current AoF system: it's telegraphed far enough that your opponent can punish you (eldar-dodge/grot-shields vs Blessed Bolts; rotate ion vs Trinity; etc.), but not far enough that you can play around them failing (for most you won't know if you have the effect until long after you've committed to the line), and they're no where near the powerlevel they have to be in order to be worth taking risks for.

To be quite honest, at their current power level, every power could go off automatically in its associated phase, without the need for bookkeeping faith points, and you wouldn't notice the difference between it and the current system except that one of your units would be doublefighting every turn, and you would generally feel better about playing because you'd never get the crushing disappointment of having your AoFs fail when the faction is dependent on them to keep pace with other factions that get their abilities by default.

I see your big-picture point and find it reasonable enough... maybe my suggestion is more of a patch to larger game design concerns around soup and balance. If every army's most potent rules were reserved for pure forces, there'd be more of a give and take around mixing and matching detachments for advantage.

As for your idea, it would probably work well, and at some point AoFs start seeming like free stratagems.

Isn't it about time GW just made a repressor? They've been dancing around it forever. The old Forgeworld model was fine- I don't necessarily need a new sculpt.

But I don't want it to be a forgeworld product- I want GW to make it in plastic and stop messing around.

Let Celestine be able to deepstrike again? She can't effectively lead a outrider a seraphim, which is a HUGE mistake- a missed opportunity.

And no, blessed bolts doesn't need to cost more. Yes it's powerful, but it's five storm bolters a turn at most.

Frateris Militia may not be necessary from a rules/ competitive perspective, but I don't want to have to contaminate my pure, holy detachments of sisters. It would be nice to be able to keep my ministorum units in their own detachments from a story point of view. That's how I've played since the witch hunters dex.

As for ordo hereticus, I would rather see an inquisition book on it's own. All three ordos in one dex, with good rules for integrating the Inquistion into soup- none of this crap about losing command points or detachment traits- the Inquisition should do soup better than any other army in the game.

Celestine, Hospitalier and Dialogus need the Order keyword.

Celestine needs Sky Strike.

Repentia should be able to advance and charge, and need a way to avoid overwatch.

Hand of the Emperor needs to be 6".

Canoness needs a jump pack option, and Sky Strike.

The reroll charge warlord trait needs to be made into an aura so that it's competitive with Indomitable in non-TPT strategies (specifically a Smashcan\Celestine\Triple Seraphim deepstrike detachment).

All current Acts of Faith autopass without a roll. Vessel works as normal for all AoF except The Passion, in Matched play, where it only splashes to one other unit of your choice in the AoE.

Dialogus given the Missionary's don't run aura instead of AoF buff.

Ebon Chalice given the ability to use each AoF a second time each turn, requiring that the second use targets an Ebon Chalice unit.

Orders apply to boxes.
Acts of Faith can target boxes.

Bodyguard doesn't line girls up to be skewered by multidamage hits.

Exorcist's shooting profile changed to 2d3 shots with flat 3 damage.