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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The stompa should be 500ish points, the castellan 800ish.

Stompa is just the trash version of a weak knight so it must be a bit cheaper than the cheapest knight.

A Stompa is not a trash version of a weak knight, it's got more weapons, self repairs D3 wounds per turn, has a transport capacity of 20, gives out a moral reroll, has more attacks at higher strength, benifits from err,we go, dakkax3 and clan cultures.
It might not be 900+ points but it's not 500 points or even close to 300 points it's 100points, (200 tops) overcosted A castellen is 700 points, without 4ppm guardsmen.

Is this a joke? The Stompa is evidently vastly overcosted. It is one of the only units in the game that is literally priced so poorly it can't even be taken in friendly games. It should be 600-700 pts tops. With wargear. It has no invulnerable save. You get that yea? So if you want an invulnerable you add 120 pts of KFF Mek. Also no clan traits if taken in super heavy aux detachment.

It's like people constantly forget that Suprrme comand detachment has a LoW slot.
A Castellen without 4ppm guardsmen isn't the same powerhouse it currently is, 5ppm guard does back it down to less offensive soup.
As they are costed at 4ppm a castellen is easy 800 point plus.

Ice_can wrote:

It's like people constantly forget that Suprrme comand detachment has a LoW slot.
A Castellen without 4ppm guardsmen isn't the same powerhouse it currently is, 5ppm guard does back it down to less offensive soup.
As they are costed at 4ppm a castellen is easy 800 point plus.

So to be accurate it has clan traits if you take a minimum of what, 120 pts of HQ units as well as the 920 pointed Stompa? Got it.

5ppm Guard make absolutely no difference to the power of the Castellan. The Castellan outperforms similarly costed super heavies and those that are more expensive without considering the literal codex worth of stratagems, warlord traits and relics that make it even better.
RIS is the most obvious and biggest problem, but there are others. None of which are related to the cost of guardsmen (though Guardsmen at 4ppm are obviously too cheap).

E-sp.

Yeah, the loyal 32 costing 30 points more makes aost no difference to the power of a Castellan. Would 30pts extra on the Castellan itself fix it? I really don't think so, and this effectively the same thing.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, the loyal 32 costing 30 points more makes aost no difference to the power of a Castellan. Would 30pts extra on the Castellan itself fix it? I really don't think so, and this effectively the same thing.

The 32 should be minimum 5ppm Guardsmen and 50 point commanders, it's adding 70 points to that list on top of moving the castellen to 700 so anothrr 100 points added.
Take a stompa down to 700 points and that match up probably still favours a castellen, which is designed to shoot enemy LoW vrs a stompa which is way more effective against a standard tac list.

But that is about a fair points cost for 40 T8 wounds with +D3 per turn.

Unlimited CP is an issue but everyone seams set on overcosting every model that benifits instead of fixing the CP system.

Ice_can wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, the loyal 32 costing 30 points more makes aost no difference to the power of a Castellan. Would 30pts extra on the Castellan itself fix it? I really don't think so, and this effectively the same thing.

The 32 should be minimum 5ppm Guardsmen and 50 point commanders, it's adding 70 points to that list on top of moving the castellen to 700 so anothrr 100 points added.
Take a stompa down to 700 points and that match up probably still favours a castellen, which is designed to shoot enemy LoW vrs a stompa which is way more effective against a standard tac list.

But that is about a fair points cost for 40 T8 wounds with +D3 per turn.

Unlimited CP is an issue but everyone seams set on overcosting every model that benifits instead of fixing the CP system.

None of us are fixing anything here, just shouting into the void!

Realistically, nothing fundamental will change to the CP system until the edition rolls over.

Ice_can wrote:

A Castellen without 4ppm guardsmen isn't the same powerhouse it currently is, 5ppm guard does back it down to less offensive soup.
As they are costed at 4ppm a castellen is easy 800 point plus.

Lol, a stompa on his own is absolutely terrible, way less efficient than a single castellan without supporting units. You clearly never played or faced it.

Having no invuln and BS5+ is a huge handicap. Its close combat abilities worth nothing if the walker never reaches combat as it will be dead or higly damaged after a single round of shooting. You basically just need 10 lascannons that succed the hit and wound rolls, not that hard if the opponent has re-rolls. Or a combination of other anti tank weapons.

Oh, its main weapon can also be out of ammo for the rest of the game since turn 1. But even at full strenght that BS5+ means the stompa will never kill much comparing to a standard knight.

I'd cap it at 600 points only if the weakest knight becomes 650 points. With the current state of 40k it should be 550 at most. I wouldn't take it either at that price.

Truth is, if you take 600 points of mek gunz or lootas+gretchins you get way more firepower and more resilient units that a stompa. 18 smasha gunz cost 560ish points and you get 108W T5 divided into 18 bodies that become single units after deployment, which means potential overkill and wasted shots that went through saves from the opponent.

Fun fact on how terrible the stompa is:
It is less survivable and worse at shooting against every possible target than the same amount of points spent on Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies.

Ice_can wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The stompa should be 500ish points, the castellan 800ish.

Stompa is just the trash version of a weak knight so it must be a bit cheaper than the cheapest knight.

A Stompa is not a trash version of a weak knight, it's got more weapons, self repairs D3 wounds per turn, has a transport capacity of 20, gives out a moral reroll, has more attacks at higher strength, benifits from err,we go, dakkax3 and clan cultures.
It might not be 900+ points but it's not 500 points or even close to 300 points it's 100points, (200 tops) overcosted A castellen is 700 points, without 4ppm guardsmen.

A stompa is aboslutely a trash version of a weak knight, its got more weapons, but they hit 50% less, its got more wounds and D3 repair but it doesn't have an invuln save, Has a transport capacity of 20....but who the feth cares, I can take an overpriced Battlewagon for 120pts and have the same capacity as well as 16 T8 wounds. Morale reroll for orkz is utterly useless. Either we pass morale by having bodies or we are dead to the last boy... there is very little if any middle ground. Benefits from Ere we go...just like knights benefit from their army special rules. Also Klan Kulture? Really? You have to buy another 120ish pts worth of HQ's to take hte supreme command detachment on top of the 920pts for the stupid stompa. I think it would be fairly priced at 600pts if it gained BS4, or could take a Git Finda for 20-30pts or something, because as it stands, it sucks at shooting and never reaches CC because it gets killed to quickly.

But back to the original point, a Battlewagon at 120pts is crap compared to most armies tanks